General Editors/IDE Discussion



  • Let me start off and say this, "I am vi/vim bigot."  I don't want
    to get into a flame war.  I'm just interested in a general
    discussion about what makes a good development environment.



    I work on a lot of different machines in a lot of different ways. 
    I work on windows and on several flavors of unix.  Sometimes I'm
    at a graphical terminal but at other times I need to work from the
    command line.  I frequently work on a machine for a short
    time.  Sometimes I'm connected remotely through a moderately slow
    VPN connection.  I work in several languages.



    I like vim because it is powerful, lightweight, universal, and
    efficient.  I can run it in a text window or as a gui
    application.  It is efficient at drawing the screen and responsive
    to my keystrokes even over a remote connection.  It is small
    enough that I can install it on a machine if it isn't there
    already.  It works well with several languages.  Its command
    set is portable to other tools - I can work out a sequence of steps and
    then easily set up those steps in sed.  There are other vi based
    editors that I can use if vim isn't available.  I've used both
    Lemmy and Vile at various times.



    From time to time I've given other editors a try.  Here are some of my reasons for not choosing them...



    Emacs:  I've tried to use emacs now and again.  I've never
    stuck with it long enough to really get the hang of it though.  If
    I need to install it, the install is usually longer and more complex
    than that of vim.  The windows versions seem rougher than the
    windows version of vim.  It is definitely more resource intensive
    than vim.



    Various IDEs:  I currently do most of my coding in Java, so this
    applies more to the Java IDEs than any others.  First of all, the
    IDEs are all big and heavyweight.  It is not an option to install
    on a machine where I'm only going to be working for half a day.  I
    can't really use them in text mode, and sometimes I can't use them
    remotely.  The text editors built in never seem as functional or
    powerful.  The autocomplete methods distract me more than they
    help.  When I switch off to another language they are far less
    useful.  If I sat at the same workstation every day and did the
    same kind of tasks, I might be able to invest enough in learning the
    advanced features of an IDE to be worthwhile.  But that doesn't
    fit my current job.



    Notepad:  Please just shoot me.



    EVE:  When I used to work on VMS I prefered EVE to EDT. 
    However, I didn't like it.  I eventually found a vi clone VILE
    that ran on the particular version of VMS I was using and installed
    that.



    Norton Editor:  I used to use NE around 1990.  Microsoft had
    a small c compiler available, and with judicious use of lzexe I was
    able to get an entire development environment on one floppy.



    WordStar:  I cut my teeth with a copy of K&R, Lattice C, and
    WSN (WordStar Non-document mode) on a 4.77MHz PC XT with a 20 MB hard
    drive.



    Generally today I develop from the command line.  I'll open
    several vim windows, one for my ant/make script and others for
    source.  I'll also open my browser to the relevant documentation,
    which I've downloaded to my pc to support both speed and offline access.



  • I think vi/vim will be gone after a generation. Don't get me wrong, it's a very powerful editor, but to weild it one must know a myriad of Ctrl-Z, Plus, Shift-A, Shift-A type commands. Back when there were no GUI or mouses [1], you really had no choice but to learn these commands. Now something like TextPad or UltraEdit are just as powerful but offer both standardized (Alt-E, F) and custmizable command shortcuts.

    I never got into vi/vim. I was shunned by Unix people because, well, those guys are pricks to young kids who want to learn. The editor I have no is EditPlus, but it certanily isn't the best -- it's just I paid for a licence, and have kinda stuck with it since.

    I prefer the IDE for the more "long term" development myself, but for more "short term" type things, I stick with one of those Windows variety editors (EditPlus, TextPad, UltraEdit, etc) -- they do FTP saving and loading, hilite text well, and offer regex searching. And a whole bunch of other rarely used (but helpful) features, like Column Copying/Pasting, etc.

    [1] I heard somehwere that mouses is correct when refering to peripherals. It's probably something that some one made up so that people would look silly though. Hence the footnote.



  • @Alex Papadimoulis said:

    I think vi/vim will be gone after a
    generation. Don't get me wrong, it's a very powerful editor, but to
    weild it one must know a myriad of Ctrl-Z, Plus, Shift-A, Shift-A type
    commands. Back when there were no GUI or mouses [1], you really had no
    choice but to learn these commands. Now something like TextPad or
    UltraEdit are just as powerful but offer both standardized (Alt-E, F)
    and custmizable command shortcuts.



    Why, it's a matter of personal preference, but I find it much easier to
    program when I don't have to reach for the mouse every few seconds.

    I don't know about Vim, but Emacs has been designed by a guy who

    already had 25 years or so experience in the field at the time he did

    it. I guess he knows best.



    As for the matter with the standards, Unix programs usually follow

    the Emacs conventions, at least for the basic commands. Therefore

    annoying Vi users, but it is a de facto standard, so....




  • I've fallen in love with Editplus, because of its direct-FTP, and
    language-specific colouring: I've coloured PHP more blueish, Jscript
    more black+green, funky languages like Python and Perl get a greyish
    green scheme. HTML is dark blue and orange and red. :3



    I've even added an SQL stx file, which I easily expand as I learn more about SQL.



    A major drawback of Editplus so far is that the colours don't seem to
    be saved in a file, meaning I have to set them up again if I upgrade
    it. I hope I'm wrong. I can't live without proper colouring.





    I've tried Editpad, but it's just clunky suck, and ASP in it defaults to VB colouring with no apparent way of changing that.



    I may try Ultraedit, since I've seen it has expanded much.



    JEdit may be good in some sense, but it's one of those editors with
    global syntax colours, which I hate, and it's soooooo sloooooowwwwww.



    An intern here uses Vim, and he's completely wild about it. He's a 1337 H4X0r.


    I find it much easier to program when I don't have to reach for the mouse every few seconds.


    Nobody does. And you don't have to. You can easily navigate text using control-combinations of cursor keys and pageup/down home/end, and setting up control keys for functions like duplicating a line is very useful.

    It also helps if your client puts the cursor on the start of the statement when pressing Home, instead of the start of the line, seeing as how most statements have preceding tabs.


  • @dhromed said:



    An intern here uses Vim, and he's completely wild about it. He's a 1337 H4X0r.


    Funny. One would expect l33t h4x0rs to use Notepad, just to prove their sk1llz 😃 (sheesh, this script is awful to write).


    I find it much easier to program when I don't have to reach for the mouse every few seconds.


    @dhromed said:

    Nobody does. And you don't have to. You can easily navigate text using
    control-combinations of cursor keys and pageup/down home/end, and
    setting up control keys for functions like duplicating a line is very
    useful.



    It also helps if your client puts the cursor on the start of the
    statement when pressing Home, instead of the start of the line, seeing
    as how most statements have preceding tabs.



    Obviously, the recent Windows editors are smarter than the ones I 
    remember. But it's too late - now I'm used to Emacs, which, by the way,
    has keys for all these commands and (n.b.) many others configured by
    default.




  • @dhromed said:

    You can easily navigate text using
    control-combinations of cursor keys and pageup/down home/end, and
    setting up control keys for functions like duplicating a line is very
    useful.

    It also helps if your client puts the cursor on the start of the
    statement when pressing Home, instead of the start of the line, seeing
    as how most statements have preceding tabs.




    Sometimes you land somewhere with your cursor in vim, and you can't remember wich operation got you there...

    duplicating a line must be one of the easiest things to do in vim.



    in normal mode the y key "yanks" text to a register (there are alot) and p pastes it (to the right side of the cursor).

    yy would yank the whole line, Y would also.

    everything in vim is an object (inherited from the "ed" editor) so you could 22y yank 22 lines

    because yy or Y also yanks the end of line, p pastes it. Yp or yyp duplicates a line.



    p pastes on the line below, P pastes above. (doesnt matter in this example)



    this shows how versatile vim is. It's very easy to learn and a great
    deal faster then notepad (hehe) when you start using things like this.



    Vim 7 when released will include omni-completion (intellisense is licensed) and spell checking



  • The single best thing about Vim is that it's programmable.

    I'm continuously developing my ultimate editor while using vim. If I have the need for a new editing  feature (for example, "rewrite string constant" -- or, replace all text between quotes), I build a small script/key sequence for it, and bind it to a short keycombo, and presto: instant feature! My editor steadily becomes more powerful as I continue adding these scripts.

    I have a sizeable .vimrc script that makes vim do exactly what I want it to, and it is still pretty small and available on any platform. I can't get that from any other editor.

    Not to mention never having to take my hands off the keyboard... mmmm....

    (Needless to say, I'm very much in love with vim [:)])



  • @RiX0R said:

    I'm very much in love with vim [:)]

    I'm feeling a bit sick


  • SockDev

    @Luhmann said:

    @RiX0R said:
    I'm very much in love with vim [:)]

    I'm feeling a bit sick

    As a fellow ViM enthusiast I must express my regret that you feel physically ill at the thought of using the best text editor, nay!, the best IDE that has ever existed.


  • BINNED

    undefined is it with huge amounts of necrophilia lately?


  • area_deu

    Was notepad++ not around back then?


  • SockDev

    @accalia said:

    the best IDE that has ever existed

    Visual Studio? 🚎



  • @Onyx said:

    undefined is it with huge amounts of necrophilia lately?

    😇

    I just follow Discourse suggestions


  • SockDev

    @RaceProUK said:

    @accalia said:
    the best IDE that has ever existed

    Visual Studio? 🚎

    which version?


  • area_deu

    Eclipse?
    Firefox WebIDE?


  • BINNED

    cat



  • Why is there no love for edit ?


  • SockDev

    @accalia said:

    @RaceProUK said:
    Visual Studio? 🚎

    which version?

    Any from 2005 onwards


  • SockDev

    @RaceProUK said:

    Any from 2005 onwards

    with or without resharper?

    because honestly 2005 and 2008 were rather poo without resharper.

    2012 was pretty nice on its own, but i'd still run it with resharper. 2013 can just about stand on its own and 2015 is actually pretty slick.


  • SockDev

    @accalia said:

    because honestly 2005 and 2008 were rather poo without resharper.

    True, but they were still better than most stuff out there at the time.

    The other thing you want is built-in NuGet, which IIRC was first bundled with 2012.

    ...

    @RaceProUK said:

    Any from 20052012 onwards

    FTFM


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