Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box
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Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box
On Tuesday, Apple announced a few new products, including updates to their Apple Watch and iPad line, and they're so boring that they could almost be dismissed for a late April Fools joke. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Apple fan and am typing this on an overpriced iMac hooked up to a WAY...
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Curiously, the removal of the charger is the most telling aspect of this announcement. To (...) with the environmental aspect of things. It reminds me of when Nintendo released the "New" 3DS models, and they, too, didn't include a charger in the box. It was pretty clear for various reasons that Nintendo did this because their main market was people looking to upgrade from an existing DS or 3DS, rather than for new players, so there was no point in burdening their supply chain with a bazillion different combinations of case colours and plug types.
So... Does this mean that Apple see the market for Apple Watches as largely saturated, where they can't sell Watches to new customers, but only as upgrades for existing ones? Does it mean, rather, that their factory-to-warehouse-to-retail chain is overstuffed with different SKUs, and by supplying the charger separately reduces the number of SKUs to one per type of watch plus one per electrical plug standard for the chargers, rather than watches times standards?
My vote's actually on the second version, since Series 5 to Series 6 seems like a weak upgrade. It's a strong "new user" package, but weak as an upgrade. Dunno. Maybe it's pitched at S1/S2/S3 people, or even (if there are any left) first-gen people, and if S4/S5 people buy them, so much the better.
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Does it mean, rather, that their factory-to-warehouse-to-retail chain is overstuffed with different SKUs, and by supplying the charger separately reduces the number of SKUs to one per type of watch plus one per electrical plug standard for the chargers, rather than watches times standards?
I'm guessing that this is the core issue, as it makes taking a product originally intended for one market and redirecting it to another really tricky. And by doing this, they can make even more slimline boxes.
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@dkf said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Steve_The_Cynic said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Does it mean, rather, that their factory-to-warehouse-to-retail chain is overstuffed with different SKUs, and by supplying the charger separately reduces the number of SKUs to one per type of watch plus one per electrical plug standard for the chargers, rather than watches times standards?
I'm guessing that this is the core issue, as it makes taking a product originally intended for one market and redirecting it to another really tricky. And by doing this, they can make even more slimline boxes.
I thought their "endgame" was to have iPads that are just a slab of glass, but I see it now, their endgame is to have packaging "boxes" that are just a shiny piece of paper.
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There's also the possibility of charging separate for the charger without making the base product any cheaper.
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@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
just a shiny piece of paper
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@PleegWat said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
There's also the possibility of charging separate for the charger without making the base product any cheaper.
Since the base product is getting more expensive with every iteration, it's impossible to tell the difference.
(E: I don't actually know if this applies to the watches, it does for the iPhones though.)
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@Steve_The_Cynic
What is delivered by other manufactures because when I bought a Garmin watch it only came with the charger cable watch-to-usb and no actual charger/wall plug. The thinking here is: everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears.
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@Luhmann said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears
That's funny. I have them coming out of my walls.
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everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears
That's funny. I have them coming out of my walls.
And walls have ears. QED.
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I am tempted by the new Apple Watch 6, but I'd have to swap phones for that due to the whole only-works-with-iPhone thing. Although considering how much my Xperia is prone to randomly crashing and rebooting atm... Having an always-on-hand simple health monitor would be nice, though, and it does have interesting features for that. Been trying to see if I can find anyone else matching the Apple Watch feature set for comparison.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears
That's funny. I have them coming out of my walls.
And walls have ears. QED.
But those are the NSAs ears, not mine.
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@dkf said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Luhmann said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears
That's funny. I have them coming out of my walls.
The walls in my apartment actually have a few outlets with USB chargers in between the power plugs.
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@Atazhaia said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I am tempted by the new Apple Watch 6, but I'd have to swap phones for that due to the whole only-works-with-iPhone thing. Although considering how much my Xperia is prone to randomly crashing and rebooting atm... Having an always-on-hand simple health monitor would be nice, though, and it does have interesting features for that. Been trying to see if I can find anyone else matching the Apple Watch feature set for comparison.
Check out the TicWatch by Mobvoi
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@Steve_The_Cynic said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
It reminds me of when Nintendo released the "New" 3DS models, and they, too, didn't include a charger in the box. It was pretty clear for various reasons that Nintendo did this because their main market was people looking to upgrade from an existing DS or 3DS, rather than for new players
Except only the 3DS used the same charger, and there were so few games that took advantage of the features of the "New" 3DS that it wasn't really worth the upgrade (except maybe for the auto-focusing 3D thing, that's kinda cool). And now (at least in the UK) you can't even buy official 3DS chargers anymore, and 3rd party gaming accessories aren't exactly known for their reliability.
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@Luhmann said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
everybody has usb chargers coming out of their ears.
I buy very few electronics, I have 1 charger that came with my phone. It is used by 3 other devices, because none of them came with one.
Now, pc power cables? I got you covered on those.
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@Dragoon said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Now, pc power cables? I got you covered on those.
Literally covered by PC cables? That seems very possible...
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@Atazhaia said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I am tempted by the new Apple Watch 6,
I would be, but it doesn't offer anything meaningful compared to a 5, especially since, for reasons related to the late Mrs Cynic's illness, I actually have a "real" SpO2 meter as a standalone device, of the sort used by EMTs. (Stick finger between the two parts, turn machine on, wait a few seconds, get reading of SpO2 and pulse rate.)
EDIT: er, compared to the 5 I already have, that is.
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@Dragoon said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I buy very few electronics, I have 1 charger that came with my phone. It is used by 3 other devices, because none of them came with one.
The big problem with that strategy is the mess of (non-)standards for power delivery via USB. There are various versions of the USB PD standard, various versions of Qualcomm QuickCharge and a lot of vendor-specific protocols that conform to neither. In theory, you'd just need one powerful USB charger, but in practice, you'll have fun with devices charging very slowly, even worse devices that cannot draw enough power when connected to a standards-compliant charger and still slowly discharge when plugged in and laptops that outright refuse to work with any third-party charger because they draw more power than any of them can supply.
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
There are various versions of the USB PD standard
USB PD is pretty reliably effective at getting the maximum power out of a charger possible. If you've got a PD compatible phone or tablet and a PD compatible charger, you'll quick charge pretty well.
@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Qualcomm QuickCharge
Yeah, QuickCharge is... not as good. IIRC there's only one(?) variant of it per USB version (so, one for micro [QCII], one for USB-C [QCIII], and maybe III works with II?), but it also... well, doesn't work with any flavor of PD due to some kind of fundamental incompatibility in the handshake.
@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
a lot of vendor-specific protocols that conform to neither
looks at Apple
@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
In theory, you'd just need one powerful USB charger, but in practice, you'll have fun with devices charging very slowly, even worse devices that cannot draw enough power when connected to a standards-compliant charger and still slowly discharge when plugged in and laptops that outright refuse to work with any third-party charger because they draw more power than any of them can supply.
I've found having a decently powerful PD (out of the USB-C port) and QCIII charger (out of the USB-A) charger covers... 90% of my use case. The only thing that can't really charge is a powerful laptop that requires like... 90w of charge on PD...
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@sloosecannon said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
The only thing that can't really charge is a powerful laptop that requires like... 90w of charge on PD...
90W? You're lucky, because at least that's theoretically possible with PD. And there are screens that can deliver that and act as a docking station.
My work laptop needs 130W. When I naïvely plugged in my 65W power bank (an expensive, big one that supports both PD and QuickCharge), it just said "lol nope". And good luck finding literally anything that delivers 130W via USB-C. (It even complains about screens designed to power MacBooks, but at least it charges very slowly when connected to those.)
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
And good luck finding literally anything that delivers 130W via USB-C.
Dell docking stations. Expensive and shit quality, but get the job done. Although the only reason I've got one is because it was provided by the employer. I'd never pay that much for it myself.
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Dragoon said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I buy very few electronics, I have 1 charger that came with my phone. It is used by 3 other devices, because none of them came with one.
The big problem with that strategy is the mess of (non-)standards for power delivery via USB. There are various versions of the USB PD standard, various versions of Qualcomm QuickCharge and a lot of vendor-specific protocols that conform to neither. In theory, you'd just need one powerful USB charger, but in practice, you'll have fun with devices charging very slowly, even worse devices that cannot draw enough power when connected to a standards-compliant charger and still slowly discharge when plugged in and laptops that outright refuse to work with any third-party charger because they draw more power than any of them can supply.
Before I totally renounced the cult of Apple, I had an iPad that would not charge. I scheduled an appointment with a "genius" (yes, they call them that, and I had to schedule an appointment at a mall a week in advance) who then immediately told me the problem was the AC adapter I was using didn't have enough amperage.
But at least the guy gave me a new adapter for free.
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@Gąska said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Dell docking stations.
Guess the brand of my company-issued laptop. What a coincidence! Because compatibility with third-party chargers or - gasp - allowing users to charge their Dell computer via their Dell USB-C computer screen would obviously be madness. All that bullcrap is obviously designed to sell their proprietary, shitty, overpriced docking stations because fuck standards.
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Because compatibility with third-party chargers
AFAIK they are compatible with third-party USB-C chargers. I just mentioned Dell docking stations because they're the only ones I know for sure that deliver 130W over USB-C.
or - gasp - allowing users to charge their Dell computer via their Dell USB-C computer screen would obviously be madness.
Does your Dell computer screen come with 130W power supply? Mine doesn't.
(That I have a Dell monitor in addition to a Dell laptop and a Dell dock is just a coincidence. It was on sale.)
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@Gąska said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Does your Dell computer screen come with 130W power supply? Mine doesn't.
There are Dell screens with 130W power supplies, but none that output 130W via USB-C AFAIK. Probably exactly because that'd make their docking stations unnecessary. Supporting USB-PD, but not supporting their own computers has to be a deliberate choice.
Needing a docking station in addition to your screen defeats the whole point of USB-C screens and DisplayPort daisy-chaining.
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
My work laptop needs 130W.
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This post is deleted!
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@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Guess the brand of my company-issued laptop. What a coincidence! Because compatibility with third-party chargers or - gasp - allowing users to charge their Dell computer via their Dell USB-C computer screen would obviously be madness.
Not even known for great compatibility with their own power bricks. Years ago, long before USB-C, I had a work-owned Dell laptop; it came with a brick, of course. I also had a compatible docking station (also work-owned), which came with it's own brick. Same coaxial power plug, same voltage, higher current rating. Plug the more powerful brick directly into the laptop; LOLNOPE! "Unrecognized power supply; may not provide enough power to operate or charge correctly." It did, but the laptop complained every time.
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@HardwareGeek said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Not even known for great compatibility with their own power bricks
You say this, but Dell has stuck with the same coaxial connector for like... 20 years? And the laptop may bitch at you but it usually works.. If the adapter is underpowered it just doesn't charge quickly (or at all).
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@HardwareGeek said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
Not even known for great compatibility with their own power bricks. Years ago, long before USB-C, I had a work-owned Dell laptop; it came with a brick, of course. I also had a compatible docking station (also work-owned), which came with it's own brick. Same coaxial power plug, same voltage, higher current rating. Plug the more powerful brick directly into the laptop; LOLNOPE! "Unrecognized power supply; may not provide enough power to operate or charge correctly." It did, but the laptop complained every time.
As a counterpoint, I bought a Dell laptop in 2008, and it both physically fits and happily accepts power from the Dell dock power brick that
clientgave me a few months ago.
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@Gąska said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
And good luck finding literally anything that delivers 130W via USB-C.
Dell docking stations. Expensive and shit quality, but get the job done. Although the only reason I've got one is because it was provided by the employer. I'd never pay that much for it myself.
Does it actually deliver 130W to the computer though?
The Dell USB-C dock I have at work (and wish I'd liberated before The Event™ kept me out of the office) has a 130W charger into the dock but only delivers 65W to the laptop over USB-C.edit: the Dell docks that deliver 130W to the computer all have 180w power supplies.
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@loopback0 said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Gąska said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@dfdub said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
And good luck finding literally anything that delivers 130W via USB-C.
Dell docking stations. Expensive and shit quality, but get the job done. Although the only reason I've got one is because it was provided by the employer. I'd never pay that much for it myself.
Does it actually deliver 130W to the computer though?
It says so. I don't have a multimeter on hand, sorry. But it does charge quite fast. Although it's with Dell laptop, and this particular dock has a modified Thunderbolt 3 that outputs 160W to compatible Dell devices, and the manual claims it downgrades to 130W for regular TB3. I don't have any device I could test it with, though.
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@Gąska I have two of those (TB16 and WD19TB). They output up to 130 W to compatible Dell hardware, and up to 90 W for generic non-Dell TB3 stuff.
A pity my Dell Precision laptop cannot be fully powered from it, as it wants 180 W. It can power almost any XPS one, though. The XPS 17 will want all 130 watts.
Also, if the cables on one of those break, they are expensive as fuck to replace, last I looked.
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@wft said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Gąska I have two of those (TB16 and WD19TB). They output up to 130 W to compatible Dell hardware, and up to 90 W for generic non-Dell TB3 stuff.
I may have misremembered a thing or two. I have WD19TB, but it came with 180W power supply.
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@Gąska yup, because it either consumes the remaining 50W on its own, or Dell just chose to give it a power brick from its existing lineup that is more than 130 but less than 240. (Now that I think of it, it’s even more likely)
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@wft said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Gąska yup, because it either consumes the remaining 50W on its own, or Dell just chose to give it a power brick from its existing lineup that is more than 130 but less than 240. (Now that I think of it, it’s even more likely)
All of the Dell USB-C docks deliver less than their power supply so the difference is likely for the dock itself and anything connected to it.
The ones with 130W power supplies deliver between like 65 and 90W, the ones with 180W deliver 130W etc.
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@loopback0 said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@wft said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@Gąska yup, because it either consumes the remaining 50W on its own, or Dell just chose to give it a power brick from its existing lineup that is more than 130 but less than 240. (Now that I think of it, it’s even more likely)
All of the Dell USB-C docks deliver less than their power supply so the difference is likely for the dock itself and anything connected to it.
The ones with 130W power supplies deliver between like 65 and 90W, the ones with 180W deliver 130W etc.My Lenovo dock (that I left in the office back in March, grumble, grumble) actually has 2 power supplies going in (I think it was a 65W and a 170W) - the powerbrick I have here is a 170W.
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Status: absolutely captivated by the wattage of Dell power supplies.
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@error Look, power efficiency is not Intel's strong suit.
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@Unperverted-Vixen said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
power efficiency is not Intel's strong suit
That really depends on whether they're making toaster ovens.
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iPhone 12 announced.
Seemingly it's back to the design of the iPhone 5 and the original (recently retired) iPhone SE.
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@loopback0 the iPhone 12 mini looks interesting, although I guess I'd be missing touch id.
I can't find how charging works, lightning, USB C, or wireless only?Considering that, as the thread title implies, for the same prices as before they no longer ship chargers (someone figured out how to spin the environment angle to make more money), I'm certainly not buying their probably super expensive wireless charging cable.
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@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
wireless charging cable
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@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
although I guess I'd be missing touch id.
Face ID is better anyway, unless you wearing a face mask... oh.
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I can't find how charging works, lightning, USB C, or wireless only?
Lightning, but the 12 only comes with a USB-C to Lightning cable.
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
for the same prices as before they no longer ship chargers
Can't tell - the Apple page only lists the phone and the cable, but that's all they list for the XR too and that definitely has a charger.
TBH as someone with several USB-A to Lightning cables and even more USB-A chargers I'm not bothered but as a new iPhone owner it's probably annoying.
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@loopback0 said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
although I guess I'd be missing touch id.
Face ID is better anyway, unless you wearing a face mask... oh.
I haven't used it, but I doubt that.
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
I can't find how charging works, lightning, USB C, or wireless only?
Lightning, but the 12 only comes with a USB-C to Lightning cable.
I've got lightning cables anyways, so that's fine.
What does the "USB-C to Lightning cable" do? Is it an adapter (i.e.female usb side that you stick another cable in) or a charging cable with (male usb side that goes into the wall plug)? Because, if it's the latter, I see no reason for wall plugs which ubiquitously use USB A to "upgrade" to USB C.
EDIT: It's the latter. Yikes. That's maximally idiotic.
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@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@loopback0 said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
although I guess I'd be missing touch id.
Face ID is better anyway, unless you wearing a face mask... oh.
I haven't used it, but I doubt that.
At the very least it's no worse. Pandemics aside.
@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
What does the "USB-C to Lightning cable" do? Is it an adapter (i.e.female usb side that you stick another cable in) or a charging cable with (male usb side that goes into the wall plug)?
Normal cable. USB-C one end, Lightning the other.
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There's also apparently a MagSafe iPhone charger...
MagSafe Charger
Make wireless charging a snap with the MagSafe Charger for iPhone, Apple Watch, and the Wireless Charging Case for AirPods. Buy now at apple.com.
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@topspin said in Apple launches new products so minimally different from previous generation that their biggest innovation was removing the charger from the box:
What does the "USB-C to Lightning cable" do? Is it an adapter (i.e.female usb side that you stick another cable in) or a charging cable with (male usb side that goes into the wall plug)? Because, if it's the latter, I see no reason for wall plugs which ubiquitously use USB A to "upgrade" to USB C.
EDIT: It's the latter. Yikes. That's maximally idiotic.You seem to be overlooking the "sync to computer" case. Apple's lower-end laptops don't ship with USB-A ports anymore. (I don't know how things are on the PC side.)
That aside, USB-A's power delivery negotiation can best be described as "a hot mess". Going to USB-C gives a greater likelihood that the phone can negotiate more than 0.5 amps from the charger.
