Tell me what you think about this...



  • They just hired a new VB.NET coder right out of college. He has to be no older than 19 or 20 years old. He looks that young. I know he just graduated because he goes around telling everybody that he just finished school. And he tells everybody how much he makes! He was talking to a group of people today saying stuff like "Yeah, I just graduated. I'm making 85k! Life is good!" That's his big line: "Life is good." My problem isn't the salary and I'm not hung up on the fact that he's young. I have an issue with him going around telling everyone about it. I just think that's bad form. And also, if this kid is no more than 19 or 20, he has no concept of how "good" life can be, or how bad for that matter. He just hasn't lived enough yet. Not that I'm jealous, but I can't imagine what a single 20 year old would do with an 85k salary right out of school. Comments?



  • I think it would annoy me too.  I have to keep reminding myself that the world does not revolve around what I like & dislike.  Sometimes you just have to accept there will be people who have different attitudes & values to your own and things are not always as you like them to be.  I try to concentrate on what I consider important and try not to criticise those that don't share my values even if I think they're stupid/ignorant whatever.

    I can strongly see the urge to punch this guy in the face but suggest you resist & let it go.  Of course you might find HR has a policy of not disclosing salary details, in which case you can get him fired.



  • For this guy, life is good. Get over it. Youth, lots of cash, little responsibilities - what could be better?

    No reason to be jealous - sooner or later the ladies will get him, jam him into the concept of "family" and then he will no longer claim "life is good". 



  • Well since he told you how much he makes, this makes a excelent comparative value for your next evaluation, in which you can explain that since you are older then that guy and work faster, you should be making what he does and then some.

     



  • Geez.. $85K and just out of school? I've been doing this for about 7 years and make less than half that even though none of the developers in the north office make less than $100K.



  • Most companies here would fire you for disclosing your salary.

    What part of the world are you in, btw?  Maybe 85K in your location barely covers expenses.  I've noticed an sharp increase of base salaries over the last 8 years, as the cost of living in my neck of the woods is so much higher.  What took me over 5 years to work to is now the base salary for new grads.



  • Cost of living varies wildly.

    I make very little compared to the numbers I sometimes read here, but the company that is My Life still turns a steady profit.



  • @dhromed said:

    Cost of living varies wildly.

    I make very little compared to the numbers I sometimes read here, but the company that is My Life still turns a steady profit.

    Indeed - the intangibles. I
    think a lot of people don't factor that in like drhomed does...

     

    Also, the better way to measure salary is "Multiples of rent + commuting cost + basic food and stuff", not "Local currency units". The simplest way is to just say "multiples of <single more or less non-fungible commodity>"




  • @too_many_usernames said:

    The simplest way is to just say "multiples of <single more or less non-fungible commodity>"

    Such as:

    "I have about 1.5 reasonably new Ati cards left over each month"

    "Oh! I have like 3."

    "Bastard!" 



  • $85K for VB.NET right out of school? Someone should smack him around.



  • @skippy said:

    What part of the world are you in, btw?  Maybe 85K in your location barely covers expenses.

    Oklahoma City. 85K is pretty decent for this area. I'm barely making more than he is, and I've been in the industry for many years...



  • Don't you just hate it when someone is soooooo right....



  • @newguy said:

    Comments?

     

    My comment: I still think you sound an awful lot like CPound.

    So what if he makes more less than you.  So what if he is younger than you?  The kid likes his life -- hell, it sounds like I'd like his life, I wouldn't mind that 17-18 years back. 

    How is this about you?

    -cw



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    My comment: I still think you sound an awful lot like CPound.

    And I still think you sound an awful lot like ammoQ. But I don't go on about it, now do I?

    It would be funny if it were revealed to the forum that all 4 of us were actually the same person...ammoQ, CodeWhisperer, CPound, and newguy. Makes you curious, no?



  • @newguy said:

    It would be funny if it were revealed to the forum that all 4 of us were actually the same person...ammoQ, CodeWhisperer, CPound, and newguy. Makes you curious, no?

    :-)

    Talking to myself, again... if I only knew where my pills are. 


     



  • AmmoQ speaks far better German than I do.  I lived with an Austrian woman for 4 years and all I can remember how to say is "Where are my keys?"


    -cw



  • If I remember rightly it's something like "Wo ist mein Arschloch?" - isn't that right AmmoQ?



  • @zedhex said:

    If I remember rightly it's something like "Wo ist mein Arschloch?" - isn't that right AmmoQ?

    lol

    Next time you meet a German (or Austrian) and look for your keys, just try it and see what happens ;-) 



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    AmmoQ speaks far better German than I do. I lived with an Austrian woman for 4 years and all I can remember how to say is "Where are my keys?"

    -cw

    I'm only waiting for someone to point out that this woman might have given you some clues what life in Austria is like, so you might use that information to impersonate an Austrian - i.e. me...



  • Ummm...she made her father's recipe for schnitzel, which I had the dubious pleasure of pounding into tenderness before she cooked.

    Does that count for anything? :)

    -cw



  • It looks like a typical dilbert strip : brand new hire out of school. Everything is fine but the bitter employees are about to crush all his happiness and hope.

    Instead of bitching in his back why don't you take him aside and tell him that it's not a good idea to talk about his salary and that he is happy. He probably never learned that you're note supposed to talk about salary in most place.



  • @Monkeyget said:

    Instead of bitching in his back why don't you take him aside and tell him that it's not a good idea to talk about his salary and that he is happy. He probably never learned that you're note supposed to talk about salary in most place.

    And he shouldn't learn it. It's an insane "rule" made up by corporations to increase their control.

    If you are seriously concerned by knowing what other people are making in your company, QUIT RIGHT NOW. You do not want to be working for a company where it would be a problem if everybody knew what everybody else was being paid.



  • @asuffield said:

    And he shouldn't learn it. It's an insane "rule" made up by corporations to increase their control.

    Increase their control over what exactly? Information? 

    @asuffield said:

    If you are seriously concerned by knowing what other people are making in your company, QUIT RIGHT NOW. You do not want to be working for a company where it would be a problem if everybody knew what everybody else was being paid.

    Where on earth is this advice coming from? It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work. Where have you been working??? 



  • @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    No, it really isn't. 



  • @CPound said:

    Increase their control over what exactly? Information?

    Salary height.

    @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    An unwritten social rule; absolutely not factual procedure.




  • @dhromed said:

    @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    An unwritten social rule; absolutely not factual procedure.

    I've worked for a US company once where the standard contract explicitly listed disclosing your salary to co-workers as a fireable offense. Not that they checked on this or anybody was ever fired for it (and I doubt they would be able to hold it up in court), but it was factual procedure that is not uncommon in the US.



  • @JvdL said:

    @dhromed said:

    @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    An unwritten social rule; absolutely not factual procedure.

    I've worked for a US company once where the standard contract explicitly listed disclosing your salary to co-workers as a fireable offense. Not that they checked on this or anybody was ever fired for it (and I doubt they would be able to hold it up in court), but it was factual procedure that is not uncommon in the US.

    I'd expect that some companies would have the twisted social insight of putting it in a contract, but that doesn't make it any more valid.



  • @dhromed said:

    @JvdL said:
    @dhromed said:

    @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    An unwritten social rule; absolutely not factual procedure.

    I've worked for a US company once where the standard contract explicitly listed disclosing your salary to co-workers as a fireable offense. Not that they checked on this or anybody was ever fired for it (and I doubt they would be able to hold it up in court), but it was factual procedure that is not uncommon in the US.

    I'd expect that some companies would have the twisted social insight of putting it in a contract, but that doesn't make it any more valid.

     Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.



  • @JvdL said:

    Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.
    If you blow yourself up during working houres you will get fired!



  • @JvdL said:

    @dhromed said:
    @JvdL said:
    @dhromed said:

    @CPound said:

    It's typical procedure to not discuss one's salary at work.

    An unwritten social rule; absolutely not factual procedure.

    I've worked for a US company once where the standard contract explicitly listed disclosing your salary to co-workers as a fireable offense. Not that they checked on this or anybody was ever fired for it (and I doubt they would be able to hold it up in court), but it was factual procedure that is not uncommon in the US.

    I'd expect that some companies would have the twisted social insight of putting it in a contract, but that doesn't make it any more valid.

     Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.

    So maybe it's an AND relationship between those things?



  • @JvdL said:

     Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.

    Even in the US, the courts have ruled several times that clauses which restrict what an employee does outside work hours are invalid. The best they can do is to write in a "morality clause", and that only applies to positions where the employee is explicitly acting as a role model or representative (eg, school teacher).

    The clauses that restrict what you can say to other employees during work hours are treated as valid in most of the US, but you really do not want to work for anybody who uses them. 



  • @asuffield said:

    @JvdL said:

     Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.

    Even in the US, the courts have ruled several times that clauses which restrict what an employee does outside work hours are invalid. The best they can do is to write in a "morality clause", and that only applies to positions where the employee is explicitly acting as a role model or representative (eg, school teacher).

    The clauses that restrict what you can say to other employees during work hours are treated as valid in most of the US, but you really do not want to work for anybody who uses them. 

    I'm not sure if that's true for illegal activities such as smoking pot or flying planes into buildings. Some US companies do random drug tests on employees.



  • @JvdL said:

    @asuffield said:
    @JvdL said:

     Other fireable offenses in explicitly listed in the standard employment contracts were: wearing flip-flops or mini-skirts, writing "What the fuck?" in corporate emails, drinking beer during work hours, smoking pot outside work hours, engaging in terrorist activities and so on.

    Even in the US, the courts have ruled several times that clauses which restrict what an employee does outside work hours are invalid. The best they can do is to write in a "morality clause", and that only applies to positions where the employee is explicitly acting as a role model or representative (eg, school teacher).

    The clauses that restrict what you can say to other employees during work hours are treated as valid in most of the US, but you really do not want to work for anybody who uses them. 

    I'm not sure if that's true for illegal activities such as smoking pot or flying planes into buildings. Some US companies do random drug tests on employees.

    They are allowed to fire you for being intoxicated while at work, and they can perform drug tests to determine whether you are. They can't do anything while you're at home. Note that if you shoot up in the morning, you're probably still intoxicated when you get to work, and they can object to that.

    As for illegal activities in general, there are very strict laws on this: you cannot be fired for any crime that you were acquitted of, and there is an explicit list of crimes that you can be fired for committing; a company is not allowed to do anything, or even ask anything, about any crime not on that list. The same rules apply to refusing to hire somebody - if it's not on the list, they can't consider it, and they can't ask whether you've ever done it.

    ("Flying planes into buildings" isn't a specific crime, so it would depend what, if anything, you were charged with) 



  • @asuffield said:

    They are allowed to fire you for being intoxicated while at work, and they can perform drug tests to determine whether you are. They can't do anything while you're at home. Note that if you shoot up in the morning, you're probably still intoxicated when you get to work, and they can object to that.

    As for illegal activities in general, there are very strict laws on this: you cannot be fired for any crime that you were acquitted of, and there is an explicit list of crimes that you can be fired for committing; a company is not allowed to do anything, or even ask anything, about any crime not on that list. The same rules apply to refusing to hire somebody - if it's not on the list, they can't consider it, and they can't ask whether you've ever done it.

    ("Flying planes into buildings" isn't a specific crime, so it would depend what, if anything, you were charged with) 

    I have to disagree here. Many people have been fired for failing drug tests because they happened to be chosen for random testing after smoking a few joints at a party the night before. If the company has a published anti-drug policy and a drug testing policy (whether random or not) and you fail a drug test, I don't know of anywhere in the US that would prohibit the company from firing them.

    You can also be fired for simply being charged with a crime, whether or not you're convicted. When I was much younger (~23), I was arrested for possession of a single joint, spent the Thanksgiving weekend in jail because I was arrested on Wednesday night and the courts weren't open on Thursday or Friday, and was then sentenced to time served and six months probation.  This was while I was in Southern California.

    About four months or so later, my wife (who was in upstate New York visiting some family) called in a panic; my infant son had suddenly gotten really sick, and the doctors were afraid he might die. I packed my stuff and left for New York in a hurry, not thinking about notifying my probation officer.

    When I missed the probation appointment a few days later, and they couldn't find me, a warrant was issued for my arrest for violation of probation.

    My son eventually recovered, but we ended up staying in New York because my wife was more comfortable with her family around. Since my six months was long over, I never thought anything about the probation.

    Fast forward two years, when I accidentally let my NY State annual vehicle inspection sticker lapse. One morning on the way to work (a job  I'd had for two years and received several promotions/raises/positive evaluations), I was pulled over because of the expired sticker by an extremely alert State Trooper.

    When he ran my license and registration, he returned to the car and asked for my Social Security Number. When I gave it to him, he had me get out of the car and arrested me for the probation warrant and a charge of "interstate flight to avoid prosecution".

    I was taken to the State Trooper Barracks and one arm was handcuffed to a ring in the floor. I spent about an hour talking to an Investigator (detective equivalent) and was then transported to the County Jail, where I spent the night.

    Apparently the Investigator was impressed with my attitude, the fact I'd never been in any other trouble, a talk he had with my immediate supervisor, and the circumstances for leaving CA. He apparently called the District Attorney there, and the DA decided to dismiss the charges and rescind the warrant. I was released from jail the day following my arrest, with no criminal charges, no finding of guilt, nothing.

    My Board of Directors (one level above my supervisor, the Executive Director) discussed firing me because the story of my arrest (and the subsequent story of my release) were published in the local newspaper. My company and position were also mentioned, and they felt it was bad publicity for the agency.

    The only reason I wasn't terminated was that both the Executive Director and two ranking Board Members voted that what happened did not affect my job performance. It was a really close call, though.

    I've also worked places where, if you'd ever been charged with a felony, you were ineligible for employment. If you lied, and they found out later, you were immediately fired. No legal repercussions for this policy, ever, to this day. 



  • @KenW said:

    @asuffield said:
    They are allowed to fire you for being intoxicated while at work, and they can perform drug tests to determine whether you are. They can't do anything while you're at home. Note that if you shoot up in the morning, you're probably still intoxicated when you get to work, and they can object to that.

    As for illegal activities in general, there are very strict laws on this: you cannot be fired for any crime that you were acquitted of, and there is an explicit list of crimes that you can be fired for committing; a company is not allowed to do anything, or even ask anything, about any crime not on that list. The same rules apply to refusing to hire somebody - if it's not on the list, they can't consider it, and they can't ask whether you've ever done it.

    ("Flying planes into buildings" isn't a specific crime, so it would depend what, if anything, you were charged with) 

    I have to disagree here. Many people have been fired for failing drug tests because they happened to be chosen for random testing after smoking a few joints at a party the night before.

    I fail to see where you disagree with what I said. 

     

    You can also be fired for simply being charged with a crime, whether or not you're convicted.

    Sue for unfair dismissal; you'll probably win.

    My Board of Directors (one level above my supervisor, the Executive Director) discussed firing me because the story of my arrest (and the subsequent story of my release) were published in the local newspaper. My company and position were also mentioned, and they felt it was bad publicity for the agency.

    The only reason I wasn't terminated was that both the Executive Director and two ranking Board Members voted that what happened did not affect my job performance. It was a really close call, though.

    Note that there was never a question of firing you for what happened - the question was whether or not your job performance was affected. They could not have fired you without constructing a reasonable argument that it was affected. 

     

    I've also worked places where, if you'd ever been charged with a felony, you were ineligible for employment. If you lied, and they found out later, you were immediately fired. No legal repercussions for this policy, ever, to this day. 

    Most likely nobody bothered to sue them. That doesn't make it legal. 


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