EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time
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[EU's Transport Commissioner Violeta Bulc] hopes 31 March 2019 will be the last time Europe switches to Daylight Saving Time (DST). By April, every member State needs to have submitted its choice for maintaining the summer or winter hour.
Basically, every member country has to decide if they want to observe DST all year long or ignore it completely. No more biannual flip-flopping. Instead, we could have even more cross-country flip-flopping.
Some mildly relevant linkage:
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My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC. But skipping DST is at least an improvement.
That ehe EU is being retards about a stupid idea they inflicted on all it's members in the 80ies is not entirely unexpected. DST is dumb in all the ways.
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@DCoder said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Basically, every member country has to decide if they want to observe DST all year long or ignore it completely.
And, it's my understanding, that if it is to be ditched, every member country has to agree to it being ditched.
One contrary vote will result in it being dropped. For the moment.
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It's about time.
Gets arrested by wordplay police.
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
That ehe EU is being retards about a stupid idea they inflicted on all it's members in the 80ies is not entirely unexpected.
The EU didn’t inflict summer time, it had been in effect in various countries and at various times since the early 20th century. The Netherlands, for example, didn’t use it but when the Germans conquered the country in 1940, clocks had to be set forward to German summer time that was in effect. Also in the Second World War, Britain had “double summer time” which meant clocks were an extra hour ahead of normal winter time.
The EEC or EU regularising it across its territory at least made it less inconvenient. Twenty or so years ago, for example, for a few weeks a year it was hard to watch weekly shows on the BBC from here in the Netherlands because around the time the clock changed, for one or two weeks we would either end up at the same time as the UK, or two hours ahead instead of one about six months later.
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC. But skipping DST is at least an improvement.
That ehe EU is being retards about a stupid idea they inflicted on all it's members in the 80ies is not entirely unexpected. DST is dumb in all the ways.And since UTC == GMT, we should just remain on the "winter time".
I don't even understand why that's something that has to be decided upon, it's the most logical decision for anyone who looks at it for more than 10 seconds.
Or, 3610 seconds, if it's winter.
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@Onyx said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
And since UTC == GMT
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>Leap seconds</>
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC.
Isn't that what China does, more or less? The country spans 4 or 5 timezones, but everyone uses Beijing time. Of course they still do everything later in the west to accommodate solar time.
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Alternative proposal:
In winter, speed up all clocks from sunrise till sunset and slow them down again at night. And the other way round in summer, so that the number of hours in a "day" always remains constant.
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
In winter, speed up all clocks from sunrise till sunset and slow them down again at night. And the other way round in summer, so that the number of hours in a "day" always remains constant.
I don't think your proposal is likely to be popular with people north of the Arctic Circle.
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@dkf
Bah. Why's it matter? There's only Santa Claus there anyway.
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC.
In Europe, or in the world?
DST is dumb in all the ways.
Well, at least it familiarized people with the idea that official time doesn't have to match solar time. Being 1-2 hours ahead of solar time is great considering the daily cycle of modern society.
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@DCoder said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Basically, every member country has to decide if they want to observe DST all year long or ignore it completely.
Will be interesting to see if this works out. Leave it to the EU to implement "let's get rid of this stupid shit" in a way that makes it even worse. I'm not sure how, but I trust they can do it.
@DCoder said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
It's exceptions all the way down in Arizona
That one bit me when I went to see Antelope Canyon.
"AZ is in the same time zone as NM, so we don't have to change the clocks. But wait, AZ doesn't have DST, so we do have to change. But wait, ..."
Don't remember which way it was, but I definitely ended up with "what do you mean, the time is not X and we're too [late ^ early]?"
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I was sent a link to a questionnaire about this a while back. Far too many fields to fill in
0_1537102034436_2018-summertime-arrangements_16_09_2018_EN_draft.pdf
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@Applied-Mediocrity said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Alternative proposal:
In winter, speed up all clocks from sunrise till sunset and slow them down again at night. And the other way round in summer, so that the number of hours in a "day" always remains constant.I guess the @boomzilla-alt downvoter thought you were being serious.
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC.
Disagree, time zones help give you an idea of where in the sky the sun is for another part of the world
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Why not keep the time the same, and just change the opening and closing times for businesses?
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@anonymous234 The only major concerns I can see with that would be that it may involve additional legislative fuckery to get around the fact that some businesses may then be open across the midnight barrier, which may cause some merry hell with how things like daily/weekly pay for the workers is calculated, or other things like "must receive a meal break for each workday" where your "workday" may now be 00:00-03:00 and 19:00-00:00 as part of two separate shifts.
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@anonymous234 said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Why not keep the time the same, and just change the opening and closing times for businesses?
That's a great idea if you live in or near the GMT time zone already and you're a lazy hack.
Having noon at 3am because of some "time zones are hard" software developers would be a much bigger WTF than everything we have right now.
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@topspin I didn't say eliminate time zones, I said eliminate daylight savings time.
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@e4tmyl33t said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@anonymous234 The only major concerns I can see with that would be that it may involve additional legislative fuckery to get around the fact that some businesses may then be open across the midnight barrier, which may cause some merry hell with how things like daily/weekly pay for the workers is calculated, or other things like "must receive a meal break for each workday" where your "workday" may now be 00:00-03:00 and 19:00-00:00 as part of two separate shifts.
The Dutch labor times law is already written completely in terms of shifts and hours, and ignores days, because of need to accommodate night shifts.
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@anonymous234 said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@topspin I didn't say eliminate time zones, I said eliminate daylight savings time.
I must have confused that with an earlier statement up-thread that said keep everything on GMT.
Sorry.
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@DCoder said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Basically, every member country has to decide if they want to observe DST all year long or ignore it completely. No more biannual flip-flopping. Instead, we could have even more cross-country flip-flopping.
Yeah, that's pretty stupid. But I think business interests will prevail, so most small countries will just coordinate their time with Germany.
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@Lukfi said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Yeah, that's pretty stupid. But I think business interests will prevail, so most small countries will just coordinate their time with Germany.
Not necessarily. The Belgian prime minister said on TV the other day that he wants to consult with the rest of the Benelux about this to try and get all three countries to pick the same time, but didn’t mention Germany (or France) at all, for example.
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Regarding the fact they did not force a new timezone I think there are two arguments for this.
- Currently, only the DST switch is enforced. Which timezone each country is in is their choice.
- This is one of those 'can be vetoed by any country' directives. They don't want the whole thing to fall through because east bumfuckistan doesn't like the new timezone it's getting.
National politicians have to deal with their European colleagues often enough that they have direct personal benefit to things aligning, which makes me think it won't turn into too much of a mess. The main deciding factor will probably be whether Germany and France make the same choice (with or without discussion between them).
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@Gąska said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC.
In Europe, or in the world?
DST is dumb in all the ways.
Well, at least it familiarized people with the idea that official time doesn't have to match solar time. Being 1-2 hours ahead of solar time is great considering the daily cycle of modern society.
Timezones already does that though. Depending on where you are at in a timezone you are off of solar time, and time has been off nationally ever since train schedules started to be cumbersome.
And I mean world wide, not just the EU, what number is on the clock face doesn't really matter much.
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@bb36e said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
My personal opinion is that everyone should just use UTC.
Disagree, time zones help give you an idea of where in the sky the sun is for another part of the world
Ah, I agree, let's keep using a broken system because of a minor convenience.
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
minor convenience.
I'm assuming you don't talk to people on the other side of the world very often
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So You Want To Abolish Time Zones
Laudable! Let's take a look at some of the changes that arise from this, through a simple case study: making an international phone call to a relative. Before abolishing time zones I want to call my Uncle Steve in Melbourne. What time is it there? Google tells me it is currently...
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@bb36e said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
minor convenience.
I'm assuming you don't talk to people on the other side of the world very often
Not currently, but I've spent about a decade working with people spread all over the world, timezones never really did much to help with that.
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@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
The main deciding factor will probably be whether Germany and France make the same choice (with or without discussion between them).
Without DST, I think France and Germany definitely should be in different time zones (Spain should also change; I have no strong opinion on whether the Benelux countries should stay in Germany's time zone).
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@Carnage said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Timezones already does that though. Depending on where you are at in a timezone you are off of solar time, and time has been off nationally ever since train schedules started to be cumbersome.
Hardly anyone realises this, though, even when live TV around the time of sunset can show you that it’s much lighter or darker not all that much further west or east from where you are.
And I mean world wide, not just the EU, what number is on the clock face doesn't really matter much.
This is why I think China’s method would probably be far better than these time zones we’re stuck with. The main problem is people, who seem to have difficulty with the idea that the sun might rise at 03:00 and set at 14:00, or whatever times that aren’t in the customary morning and evening. Why couldn’t you have 05:00 in the evening?
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@Khudzlin said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Without DST, I think France and Germany definitely should be in different time zones
If you’re going by the basic time zone boundaries, without adjustment for borders, then for France it’s pretty much a toss-up which zone to go with, though most of the country would be in CET. Choosing CET also simplifies things with neighbouring countries, most of which would definitely be fully in the CET zone.
(Spain should also change
Spain is simply in the wrong time zone. It’d be simpler, or at least more obvious, to have the time zone border run through the Pyrenees than along the Spanish-Portuguese border.
I have no strong opinion on whether the Benelux countries should stay in Germany's time zone).
Living in the Benelux as I do, IMHO it’s only an issue if Germany and France choose different times — else the smart move is to just go along with them, whichever of the two times they pick. Changing your watch going into Belgium would feel odd, but I probably only say that because I don’t live very far from the Belgian border — a different time in England across the sea isn’t a strange idea, a different time just a little to the south is a bit.
But I hope time changes get signposted better than they are (were?) in the USA. I remember taking a long car trip with a couple of Americans, and at one point we passed a sign that read “Entering CST Zone”. I puzzled over it, asked them what a “CST zone” is supposed to be, and they said they didn’t know either. Sometime later it suddenly clicked that the abbreviation meant Central Standard Time, so we duly set our watches back an hour.
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@Gurth said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
If you’re going by the basic time zone boundaries, without adjustment for borders, then for France it’s pretty much a toss-up which zone to go with, though most of the country would be in CET. Choosing CET also simplifies things with neighbouring countries, most of which would definitely be fully in the CET zone.
You're using the wrong lines. A smaller part of France (20% or so) is west of the Greenwich meridian, but all of it is west of the 7.5° east line that seperates the UTC and UTC+1 timezones. It would actually be natural for the Benelux, France, and Spain peninsula to use UTC while Germany Swiss, Italy, etc. use UTC+1. The next border is at 22.5°, which aligns pretty closely with the Poland/Belarus and Poland/Ukraine borders.
Portugal is actually a toss-up to use UTC-1 instead of UTC, but using UTC would likely be more practical.
This map helps a bit:
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@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
This map helps a bit:
I've seen that before. I still like it a lot.
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@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
You're using the wrong lines. A smaller part of France (20% or so) is west of the Greenwich meridian, but all of it is west of the 7.5° east line that seperates the UTC and UTC+1 timezones.
Not quite all of it: the easternmost point in mainland France is at about 8°15' east, and Corsica's a bit farther east than that (about 9° east). Still clearly belongs in the UTC+0 timezone, geographically.
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@Gurth said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
The main problem is people, who seem to have difficulty with the idea that the sun might rise at 03:00 and set at 14:00, or whatever times that aren’t in the customary morning and evening.
The French revolutionaries managed to replace all units. Except one – time. That should tell you how big difficulty people would have with it.
(And by the way, if we really wanted to get rid of time zones, I do think switching away from hours completely to decidays or something would probably be actually easier).
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@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Portugal is actually a toss-up to use UTC-1 instead of UTC
We have two timezones because of the Azores. Looks at us, we're big.
@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Spain peninsula
:death_stare:
@Bulb said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
(And by the way, if we really wanted to get rid of time zones, I do think switching away from hours completely to decidays or something would probably be actually easier).
I'd be happier if we changed from the decimal system to hexadecimal or duodecimal system, honestly.
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@Zecc said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Spain peninsula
:death_stare:
I had Iberian Peninsula first. Then I decided to mention Portugal separately and I corrected Spain wrong.
Mea culpa
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@PleegWat I hope you didn't think I was seriously offended. I could care less.
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@Zecc said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
duodecimal system
… hey, that's what hours are!
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Ooh, better yet. Let's use sexagesimal.
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@Zecc That's minutes. Or if you do it a second time, seconds.
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@Zecc said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Spain peninsula
:death_stare:
Spain has made it pretty clear that they don't believe in unilateral declarations of independence, so if you want Portugal to remain independent, you need to let all of Spain vote on it
.
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@Zecc said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
It's about time.
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@PleegWat said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
You're using the wrong lines. A smaller part of France (20% or so) is west of the Greenwich meridian, but all of it is west of the 7.5° east line that seperates the UTC and UTC+1 timezones.
You know, if you’d asked me before I read the above, I would have said that time zones count from 0° longitude, not that one is centred on that.
It would actually be natural for the Benelux, France, and Spain peninsula to use UTC while Germany Swiss, Italy, etc. use UTC+1.
This must be why most of Western Europe uses UTC+1 instead of +0 like it should be in.
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@Bulb said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
@Gurth said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
The main problem is people, who seem to have difficulty with the idea that the sun might rise at 03:00 and set at 14:00, or whatever times that aren’t in the customary morning and evening.
The French revolutionaries managed to replace all units. Except one – time. That should tell you how big difficulty people would have with it.
China manages it, though.
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@Gurth said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
The main problem is people, who seem to have difficulty with the idea that the sun might rise at 03:00 and set at 14:00, or whatever times that aren’t in the customary morning and evening. Why couldn’t you have 05:00 in the evening?
The bigger problem is that date change in the middle of the day would cause shittons of legal problems. For example, Sunday is treated special in many countries regarding work restrictions - who can work, how long they can work, and how much they get compensated. Imagine that suddenly, Saturday becomes Sunday in the middle of the day. What now?
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@Gąska said in EU schedules a task to get a lock on Daylight Saving Time:
Imagine that suddenly, Saturday becomes Sunday in the middle of the day. What now?
No need to imagine, just ask an EMT, security guard, casino staff, or a call center slave.
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