WhatsApp's illegal
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Today I decided to give in to all the peer pressure and install WhatsApp on my phone. Of course, they want me to accept their terms of service and privacy policy, so I go and read them (yeah, I'm weird like that...), and stumble upon this section:
WhatsApp ToS said:
Address Book. You provide us, all in accordance with applicable laws, the phone numbers of WhatsApp users and your other contacts in your mobile address book on a regular basis, including for both the users of our Services and your other contacts.
My first thought is: "how do I have the right to do so?" and as it turns out: I don't!1.
In essence, the only way for me to legally install WhatsApp would be to get explicit permission from all people in my address book to share their phone number with WhatsApp. The chance of this happening is, in a first, rough estimate, indistinguishable from zero.
This also means that all my friends who have my phone number in their address book, and have WhatsApp installed on their phones, have done so illegally and technically I could sue them for violation of my privacy rights.
1 This lawsuit was in Germany, where I don't live, and before the GDPR came into effect; but do I live in a country where the GDPR applies, and it seems unlikely that the GDPR has weaker provisions in this regard than what Germany had before, so chances are this would now apply here, too.
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@ixvedeusi mobile apps scavenge all data they can get hold on with total disregard of any laws whatsoever. News at 11.
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AFAIK WhatsApp's blocking mechanism works tightly around the address book in the past. That makes the situation awkward when someone sends spam message to you and you want to block him - There is no way to block message be sent from an unknown number, without having to add the number in your address book first. After that, you can block the number.
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I'm not very good with law. What makes the use of the phone's address book legal?
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Ooooh. There's another app called Truecaller that shows the identity of the unknown caller when you get a call. When you install the app, it asks you for access to all the contacts in your Address book hence the large database of phone nos with their corresponding owners. Remember, A huge number of people have to be on Truecaller and also allow access to their contacts for it to truly work.
Here comes the fucky part, I usually do not pick up numbers that I do not know so never had the need to install the App. One day I wanted to see if my name turns up on a friend's phone before he saved me to his address book. He had truecaller installed and lo and behold my entire fucking name with the company I work for turns up in the App. This pissed me off to no end. I do not want that information out there. I assumed my name was on the database because someone had had my phone number, installed truecaller before or after the fact and allowed access to their entire address book.
I installed the app on my phone, registered with my phone number and input a random name when it asked for my first name and last name and from then onwards, anyone who did not have my number before got the fake name I had manually input on my Truecaller app instead of the real ones that other people had used to save my number.
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@ixvedeusi these data privacy laws are a
to progress
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@sockpuppet7 If I could choose between data privacy and this "progress", I'd choose data privacy, TYVM.
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@ixvedeusi too bad it's not us, common people, making these decisions.
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
unfortunately, it's not people that make these decisions
...? So it's... machines, then?
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
too bad it's not us, common people, making these decisions.
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'd say, however, that it is us, common people, who decide to not make these decisions. We're the ones who accept those terms of service, after all.
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@ixvedeusi said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@sockpuppet7 If I could choose between data privacy and this "progress", I'd choose data privacy, TYVM.
Well, one could start paying for an e-mail service, paying for a news site that doesn't track you, paying for an iphone that is at least 3 times more expensive than my mid-range android, etc. I like getting lots of stuff for free.
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@ixvedeusi I accept these terms and conditions, or I have no way to talk to my mother who currently lives across the ocean. It's similar to not agreeing with water prices - sure, I could stop paying my bills and disconnect my house, but then I'd have no water.
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@ixvedeusi said in WhatsApp's illegal:
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'd say, however, that it is us, common people, who decide to not make these decisions. We're the ones who accept those terms of service, after all.
That was a colective decision of common people, yes, but you don't get to choose for yourself, your friends share enough about you for the corporations without your input.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
I like getting lots of stuff for free.
More power to you. I wouldn't mind paying for what I consume, if there were convenient ways for me to do so. The problem here is mainly that no one ever bothered to provide a suitable, standardized infrastructure.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
Well, one could start paying for an e-mail service, paying for a news site that doesn't track you, paying for an iphone that is at least 3 times more expensive than my mid-range android, etc. I like getting lots of stuff for free.
I already pay for email service and would gladly pay for the rest (well, not for iphone), but there are no alternatives. "Free" shit of terrible quality killed everything worth paying for.
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
I accept these terms and conditions, or I have no way to talk to my mother who currently lives across the ocean.
I know what you mean. IMHO the problem here is
@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
That was a colective decision of common people
If most people wouldn't accept apps with these kinds of terms, maybe by now we'd have a serious competitor which doesn't require me selling out my friends.
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I wonder how bad Viber is, comparatively. I know it notifies everyone in your phonebook that also has Viber as soon as you install the damned thing (I honestly got a call before I finished setting it up as I was futzing around with keyboard layouts since I wanted to put moonland characters in my last name in the app), but I wonder if it shares stuff beyond that...
To be clear, this is not a recommendation for an alternative, I hate that piece of shit too, I just needed it for work purposes.
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@ixvedeusi said in WhatsApp's illegal:
If most people wouldn't accept apps with these kinds of terms, maybe by now we'd have a serious competitor which doesn't require me selling out my friends.
Whatsapp kind of respected people before it was bought by Facebook. That could happen to this competitor (They probably still received your contacts, but I haven't noticed this problem at the time. I haven't noticed this problem before this topic here to be honest)
Problem is, the network effect on messaging apps and social networks is too strong.
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@ixvedeusi except it wasn't really a decision if they were unaware of consequences and there was no alternative. More like a mass con job. Either way, the only way to change it is to make people care about data privacy at least as much as they care about pet abuse (good luck with that), or have the politicians pass laws that will protect people against abuses of corporations that make hefty donations to the very politicians writing and voting on those laws.
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
except it wasn't really a decision if they were unaware of consequences and there was no alternative.
I keep reading this argument over and over, but the reality I see is that most people are like me, they want their free stuff, and they don't care about some corporation reading their posts and seeing their pictures, etc.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
except it wasn't really a decision if they were unaware of consequences and there was no alternative.
I keep reading this argument over and over, but the reality I see is that most people are like me, they want their free stuff, and they don't care about some corporation reading their posts and seeing their pictures, etc.
Sadly, this is true. People that care about privacy are a small minority and have nothing to say.
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@mrl said in WhatsApp's illegal:
People that care about privacy are a small minority and have nothing to say.
What is there to say? We keep telling people about all the shit, but goddamnit, they have to click "Like" on that cat picture all their friends are linking as well, otherwise their social life will be RUINED!
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@onyx well, I don't use facebook, but I use gmail as the remind your password for everything, and I have a mid-range android phone that is at least 3x cheaper than an Iphone. And I access websites, and no way in Hell I would be paying 1$ for each website I use.
If at least one of these shitcoins allowed me to pay a fraction of a cent for each time a view a site, because that is what they get with ads, a small fraction of a cent.
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@onyx said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@mrl said in WhatsApp's illegal:
People that care about privacy are a small minority and have nothing to say.
What is there to say? We keep telling people about all the shit, but goddamnit, they have to click "Like" on that cat picture all their friends are linking as well, otherwise their social life will be RUINED!
One of my friends ends every discussion about privacy before it really begins with this:
"I don't care if anyone knows what I do online or in real life. Privacy is worthless. I will give them EVERYTHING they ask for if they give me free stuff. I endorse all new technology!"I am not kidding. Others don't say stuff like that out loud, but that's exactly what they do every day.
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
or have the politicians pass laws that will protect people against abuses of corporations that make hefty donations to the very politicians writing and voting on those laws.
... and to have any chance of getting politicians to do that we'd have to...
@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
make people care about data privacy at least as much as they care about pet abuse
and, as you said,
@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
good luck with that
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@onyx
Did you have to mention a cat picture? Now I liked your post ...
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@luhmann I can delete my facebook posts, no matter how old they are
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Did they fix it so that your deleted cat pictures are really deleted?
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
except it wasn't really a decision if they were unaware of consequences and there was no alternative.
I keep reading this argument over and over, but the reality I see is that most people are like me, they want their free stuff, and they don't care about some corporation reading their posts and seeing their pictures, etc.
Well, in this case, I'm pretty sure it was both: the users had no idea they're sending their entire address book to Whatsapp, but if they did, they wouldn't care.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@onyx well, I don't use facebook, but I use gmail as the remind your password for everything, and I have a mid-range android phone that is at least 3x cheaper than an Iphone. And I access websites, and no way in Hell I would be paying 1$ for each website I use.
If at least one of these shitcoins allowed me to pay a fraction of a cent for each time a view a site, because that is what they get with ads, a small fraction of a cent.
We can argue about specific points in your argument until we're blue in the face, but here's the thing: I'm not arguing with you that some concessions are fine if you personally think it's ok. I put up with Google's location tracking because it gives me traffic reports based on that, for example, and when I'm stuck in traffic somewhere, at least some other soul might not be for the same reason.
The thing is, you're at least conscious about that and make your own choices on what you're willing to risk. Most people aren't, and, a bigger problem being, even when they are, they don't give a flying fuck.
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@mrl said in WhatsApp's illegal:
"I don't care if anyone knows what I do online or in real life. Privacy is worthless. I will give them EVERYTHING they ask for if they give me free stuff. I endorse all new technology!"
I can't really object to this point of view as far as this concerns their own data, it's their choice after all. What I do primarily object to, in this particular case, is them selling my data to get their free stuff. If we consider that sharing data is a form of payment (which the argument kind of implies), they are in effect stealing from me by doing so.
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@onyx said in WhatsApp's illegal:
Most people aren't, and, a bigger problem being, even when they are, they don't give a flying fuck.
Common man who does not give a shit about privacy right there. And I do not think it is wrong. There are people who don't really have to worry about these things.
Also, I don't use facebook cos I don't like to put my life out on the internet like that.
I use gmail, an android phone that tracks my location and a few microsoft apps that probably track some shit though. What harm is being done to me because of all this? I'd like this explained to me by people who go 'oh nooooesssss my privacy omgaaaazzz'.
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@onyx said in WhatsApp's illegal:
The thing is, you're at least conscious about that and make your own choices on what you're willing to risk. Most people aren't, and, a bigger problem being, even when they are, they don't give a flying fuck.
I think there should be law limiting the lenght of a TOS, so they get concise and readable. The law should assume nobody reads a TOS that is more than 500 words long, because its not reasonable to expect that.
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@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
I'd like this explained to me by people who go 'oh nooooesssss my privacy omgaaaazzz'.
We had that discussion before and not once. People that don't care about privacy are incapable of feeling any discomfort about data gathering and will laugh at any argument against it.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
I think there should be law limiting the lenght of a TOS, so they get concise and readable.
This would backfire so bad. The sentences would be more complicated with bigger words to condense all those T&Cs in <500 words. It would get worse.
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@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
What harm is being done to me because of all this? I'd like this explained to me by people who go 'oh nooooesssss my privacy omgaaaazzz'.
For this specific case (giving out my phone number), a primary and very real concern is being harassed by spammers.
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@ixvedeusi said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
What harm is being done to me because of all this? I'd like this explained to me by people who go 'oh nooooesssss my privacy omgaaaazzz'.
For this specific case (giving out my phone number), a primary and very real concern is being harassed by spammers.
If it is Viber or Truecaller or whatever then yes. Read my post above about how I went out of my way to protect my privacy. What I don't get is privacy issues when it comes to location tracking and targeted ads.
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@stillwater Maybe, whatever. I don't read a long TOS anyway.
But Facebook's TOS could be just "all your data are belong to us", and that would say exactly the same as their current one.
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@mrl Did you even read what I wrote?
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@stillwater Maybe, whatever. I don't read a long TOS anyway.
But Facebook's TOS could be just "all your data are belong to us", and that would say exactly the same as their current one.
If we're talking facebook then I doubt anything s gonna stop them from being assholes.
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Oh I also recommend Chaos Monkeys for anyone who's interested in how your data translates into targeted ads on Facebook. Very very interesting read.
EDIT: The privacy violations here are next level stuff. I was not aware there was a system that existed that connected your offline activity with your online activity before I read this book.
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@stillwater I just assume they know everything, big brother style
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@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
I think there should be law limiting the lenght of a TOS, so they get concise and readable.
This would backfire so bad. The sentences would be more complicated with bigger words to condense all those T&Cs in <500 words. It would get worse.
Yeah, it would totally suck for Germans. But it wouldn't be nearly as bad in other countries.
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@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@mrl Did you even read what I wrote?
You wrote something else from what you meant?
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Then I get disappointed when the police can't solve a crime. With all this information, I would expect a perfect police service.
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@mrl said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@stillwater said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@mrl Did you even read what I wrote?
You wrote something else from what you meant?
If you read exactly what I meant then I'm not sure where you got the idea I don't care about privacy. That is the exact opposite of what I've been saying.
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@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
Yeah, it would totally suck for Germans. But it wouldn't be nearly as bad in other countries.
Said the guy who speaks polish. I dunno how you can even pronounce that words
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@sockpuppet7 letter by letter.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
@gąska said in WhatsApp's illegal:
Yeah, it would totally suck for Germans. But it wouldn't be nearly as bad in other countries.
Said the guy who speaks polish. I dunno how you can even pronounce that words
Being constantly drunk helps.
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@sockpuppet7 said in WhatsApp's illegal:
so they get concise and readable
yeah we should have a law to force companies to produce readable stuff ... o wait that's actually inside the GDPR already
