Thugs



  • Sigh...it's interview time again at my company. We've gone through the latest batch of recruits, and let me tell you, it's gotten worse.

    People aren't even bathing anymore. I realize it's the summer, but c'mon. They stink. BAD.

    Not only that, the dress code has gotten sloppier and the candidates don't even care. Torn jeans, cutoffs, you name it. And yes, the sandals are back.

    Some candidates look like outright thugs. They look like they would beat up people in the parking lot and steal their money.

    Someone tell me so I can understand. Is it cool to look like a thug these days? Is it cool to look like you're about to kill someone? And what's with the baggy pants resurfacing? I thought that died out with Coolio in the early 90's.

    While I'm ranting, let me say something about piercings. They're old and overdone. Newsflash: they're not shocking anymore. Glad I got that out of my system.

    Hmm, what else...oh yeah, this is going to hurt a lot of people's feelings, but I just have to say it because no one else is. The back-to-the-70s hairstyles are soooo ugly. They make you look dirty and unkempt. I'm not the only manager who thinks this. It's the general consensus. It's very unprofessional, not to mention very 70s! It was done in the 70s and didn't work, so why would you try to bring it back? You know the hairstyles. Long, flipped, and shaggy looking.

    Ok, I'm done ranting for now.

    I've got a whole slew of candidates coming in next week. I can't wait to see the latest in thug-wear.



  • It's Hip-Hop fashion,

    That has nothing to do with thugs.

    I would like to suggest you judge them by what they are capable of.

     



  • Couldn't you please stop posting these retarded rants?



  • @masklinn said:

    Couldn't you please stop posting these retarded rants?

    Does anybody ever answer "yes"?



  • @asuffield said:

    @masklinn said:

    Couldn't you please stop posting these retarded rants?

    Does anybody ever answer "yes"?

    It happened once (but was followed by "but I don't want to", and then I was banned because it was a mod) (was not here by the way)



  • @masklinn said:

    Couldn't you please stop posting these retarded rants?

    Please understand that I'm not ranting just for ranting's sake. I'm actually relating my observations for your benefit (the collective you).

    If you fall into the category of being smelly, unkempt, and unmannered (i.e. feet on the interview table) then take heart. I'm trying to get you people to change...for your own good.

    The reason nobody is hiring you is because people perceive you as having no self-esteem or self-worth. Think about it. If you just don't care about yourself, then you're not going to bathe, dress well, or give a damn what people think about you. It's a type of self-loathing. And it really shows. That's why people won't hire you.

    Why would I want to hire someone who puts his feet up on my desk during the interview? Yeah, you're being "cool" and "relaxed", but guess what? That says to the interviewer, if this person is doing this in an interview setting, can you imagine what he would do if he were asked to meet with a client? That should speak for itself.

    I'm really trying to help you guys out. And from the droves of clueless candidates that I've seen, the word really needs to be spread. 



  • @CPound said:

    Please understand that I'm not ranting just for ranting's sake.

    Oh come on, at least try to face reality, of course you're ranting for ranting's sake, with a touch of hoping there will be people who'll agree with your retarded views of the world.



  • @Ice^^Heat said:

    It's Hip-Hop fashion,

    That has nothing to do with thugs.

    I would like to suggest you judge them by what they are capable of.

     



    What job can I get where I'm supposed to stink, dress like a highschool student, and present a tough front when I really have an identity crisis?

    Wearing a suit and tie does not mean you can do the job nor does having the skills but looking like the latest fad make you qualified for it.



  • Sheesh, the topic that just won't die.

    1) Some measure of professionality would be nice, particularly if they've been in the job market for more than a year or two
    2) It's optional if someone is really outstanding and you need to put them in the basement where they'll never meet the customer.

    The point that CPound doesn't make is that historically, he doesn't seem to be interested in what makes a good dev.  He wants people wearing suits and freshly scrubbed who will throw code at a problem until it looks like it's done.  In essence, it sounds like he wants to hire people like himself, which is a standard rookie mistake of new management types.

    Which isn't to say that he shouldn't have standards; but history has shown that he is less interested in standards regarding deep technical skill & background knowledge and more about their choice in apparel. 

    Personally, I'll hire a guy in shorts & sandals who can ace a technical interview over a guy in a suit who looks at me blankly when I ask him what a linked list is.  But that's just me, I have standards.

    -cw

     



  • I somewhat agree with CPound. If you turn up at an interview looking like you don't give a damn about what people think of you then you don't deserve to get a well-paid indoor job with no heavy lifting and usually giving you the weekend off. And if that "isn't fair", well where does it say the the world/universe is fair?



  • @Joe Luser said:

    you don't deserve to get a well-paid indoor job with no heavy lifting and usually giving you the weekend off.

    Which probably isn't what CPound has to offer when you know his post history.



  • While I disagree with many of the things I've seen CPound looking for in employees, I agree with him here.  If I'm interviewing you as a candidate, I expect at you to dress at least halfway professionally.  If you come in wearing sandals and a t-shirt with cut off sleeves, then you better be a damn good programmer, so good that I wouldn't hire you anyways because you'd be well above the skill level I'm looking for (and thus probably too expensive).   I'd expect, at a minimum, slacks and a polo shirt, while a suit is preffered. Anything less and I'll have a tough time taking you seriously. 



  • @bonzombiekitty said:

    I'd expect, at a minimum, slacks and a polo shirt, while a suit is preffered. Anything less and I'll have a tough time taking you seriously. 

    Usual response: if you can't take people seriously without them wearing a suit, I wouldn't want to work for you (and I doubt many sane people would either). 



  • @CPound said:

    Some candidates look like outright thugs. They look like they would beat up people in the parking lot and steal their money.

    Someone tell me so I can understand. Is it cool to look like a thug these days? Is it cool to look like you're about to kill someone? And what's with the baggy pants resurfacing? I thought that died out with Coolio in the early 90's.

    While I'm ranting, let me say something about piercings. They're old and overdone. Newsflash: they're not shocking anymore. Glad I got that out of my system.

     Once again CPound you've done an awesome job of making yourself look like a complete retard.  Everyone knows your incredibly deluded perceptions of the world so why don't you do everyone a fovour and just stop posting absolute crap like this. 

    Also as i've tried to explain to you before about piercings they are not done for shock value, it's just seems right for some people, do you critiscise the women in your office that have earrings?

    Also the "looking like you're about to kill someone" thing is just a biggotted misperception in your sad little mind, has it not occurred to you yet that the people who look like that and have degrees and are programmers/professionals and are therefore not likely to kill you and that maybe you judging them that way is because you are severely misguided in your view of the world?  Or would that require too much thinking on your part.  It must be a sad scary world that you live in if you think people that look slightly different are going to kill you, my advice to you, if you don't want to have a heart attack, is don't some the melbourne any time soon.

    Honestly though, you sound like the kind of guy no one would want to work for anyway.  Just out of interest what's the turnover time for employees you manage?


     



  • @element[0] said:

    Honestly though, you sound like the kind of guy no one would want to work for anyway.  Just out of interest what's the turnover time for employees you manage?

    Apparently it's pretty high.  CPound seems to be interviewing every other month it seems. 

    CPound, let me give you a clue.  If you are interviewing this often, something is broken with the organization, you, or both. 

     


     



  • @asuffield said:

    @bonzombiekitty said:

    I'd expect, at a minimum, slacks and a polo shirt, while a suit is preffered. Anything less and I'll have a tough time taking you seriously. 

    Usual response: if you can't take people seriously without them wearing a suit,I d I wouldn't want to work for you (and I doubt many sane people would either). 

    I didn't say that.  I said I have a tough time taking a person seriously if they show up in anything less than slacks and a polo shirt.  To me, that signals you don't really give a crap.  Maybe that's just how I was raised.  I was always taught to show up to a job interview well dressed.



  • CPound, I'd absolutely love to see someone actually put their feet up on a table during an interview.  I do hope you are being facetious there.  If not, then where in the hell are you getting your people?  If it's from a recruiter, then I suggest firing them and looking elsewhere.<o:p></o:p>


     



  • @skippy said:

    CPound, I'd absolutely love to see someone actually put their feet up on a table during an interview.  I do hope you are being facetious there.  If not, then where in the hell are you getting your people?

    We tend not to use recruiters. Most of our candidates are walk-ins who have passed resume inspection. They say they have the skills, so we bring them in to talk to. Most of our applicants come from the local universities in our area. The guy who put his feet up on the table had a master's degree. 



  • @CPound said:

    @skippy said:

    CPound, I'd absolutely love to see someone actually put their feet up on a table during an interview.  I do hope you are being facetious there.  If not, then where in the hell are you getting your people?

    We tend not to use recruiters. Most of our candidates are walk-ins who have passed resume inspection. They say they have the skills, so we bring them in to talk to. Most of our applicants come from the local universities in our area. The guy who put his feet up on the table had a master's degree. 

    Wow.  We've got several Masters and PhD's here, but none of them would be that "free-spirited".  Things like that go beyond eccentricities, and right into bad manners (that "I don't care" attitude we've already discussed in this thread).



  • ha ha ha .. I never answered to Cpound on his "suit and tie crusade" because I always thought these posts were on the trollish side.

    But this time you really made me laugh out loud man.. Cpound you are my new hero..

    I think I'm in love with you.. would you still like me If I told you I have long hair, beard and a lot of tattoos?
    (I mean A LOT OF THEM)

    PEace!

     

     
     



  • @CPound said:

    If you just don't care about yourself, then you're not going to ... give a damn what people think about you. It's a type of self-loathing.

     
    This is one of your many mistakes,  it's called a logic error. I understand you're a manager, so don't feel bad if you have to ask a programmer about it. A great many people aren't really all that interested in your opinion of them, so long as they are themselves contented. If you are sufficiently impressed with their abilities, they have a job, and you have an employee. If you have a hangup because of their dress (to a point, mind; some may actually have a problem or just be fucking with you) then you have to do another interview and they probably wouldn't have been happy there anyway.



  • OK - I'll buy into this obvious flamebait:

     If CPound really is a person who hires people (I rather suspect he's just pushing a pen around while the real engineers do the actual work), he should know that it doesn't matter if a candidate has green skin, horns and a tail - but if he can write quality code then he's a good hire.



  • @fatdog said:

    would you still like me If I told you I have long hair, beard and a lot of tattoos?

    (I mean A LOT OF THEM)

    I will answer this. If you come in wearing a nice shirt and dress slacks, concealing at least the majority of tattoos, I would consider talking to you. A suit would be preferable of course, but based on what I'm seeing these days, I'll settle for dress casual.

    The problem is when you get someone in who is basically wearing a t-shirt (almost a muscle shirt) and cutoff jeans. The tattoos are really visible, especially on the upper arms.

    It's real comfortable being a conservative fellow interviewing a guy who has the word "Killer" and a couple death's head skulls on his forearms.

    Put yourself in my place for once. You're a conservative guy. Just waiting for this guy to lunge across the table and strangle you with his bare hands. Not a pretty picture, is it? 



  • @CPound said:

    Put yourself in my place for once. You're a conservative guy. Just waiting for this guy to lunge across the table and strangle you with his bare hands. Not a pretty picture, is it? 

    Wow...

    It's not just some guy looking for work, it's a threat on _your_ safety.  Why do you think you're even worth bruising their knuckles on?   Would you hire someone you felt was openly gay?  Or would you assume they were going to try to turn you to their side (or just give you aids) at the first opportunity?   Who else scares you?   Strong women?  African-americans? 

    What sort of fear must you live in everyday?  If it's not Donald Knuth hiding under your bed, it's guys applying for work just so they can get close enough to you to jump across the table and throttle you.  

    Holy cow... get over yourself, get out there and talk to a few people who look different than you do -- you might just discover that they're just plain folks. 

    -cw



  • I wonder what would happen if a guy wearing a $2000 suit, with no tattoos or piercings and who looked like a Fortune 100 CEO lunged across the table and tried to strangle CPound.  I imagine he'd have a breakdown and end up in the loony bin.



  • @CPound said:

    @fatdog said:
    would you still like me If I told you I have long hair, beard and a lot of tattoos?

    (I mean A LOT OF THEM)

    I will answer this. If you come in wearing a nice shirt and dress slacks, concealing at least the majority of tattoos, I would consider talking to you. A suit would be preferable of course, but based on what I'm seeing these days, I'll settle for dress casual.

    The problem is when you get someone in who is basically wearing a t-shirt (almost a muscle shirt) and cutoff jeans. The tattoos are really visible, especially on the upper arms.

    It's real comfortable being a conservative fellow interviewing a guy who has the word "Killer" and a couple death's head skulls on his forearms.

    Put yourself in my place for once. You're a conservative guy. Just waiting for this guy to lunge across the table and strangle you with his bare hands. Not a pretty picture, is it? 

    In the four or five interviews I've had in my life I've always weared shirt and nice pants and shoes. Tattos get conceealed under a shirt. I have never worn a tie though. By nice I mean your typicall long sleeve shirt, cakis or black jeans, and some some black or brown leather shoes which could vary from "timberland style" to my alltime favourite black adidas Stan and Smith. That's as formal as I'll dress for something else than a wedding. (No no suit or tie for funerals either).

    In the country I used to live in, this was consiedered very "unorthodox" to not wear a suit to a n interview to whatever job you apply to. Still, I got hired all the times, (though I rejected two of them) because the interviewer saw in me a bit more than the wrapping.  

    And I do think it's smart to dress nice to an interview. The thing is that with you it seems like an obsession. I mean you don't like a guy going with shorts and sandals to an interview. That's fine, don't hire him . You want to comment on it a couple of times, that's  fine too. I respect your view.

    But come on man these people are not thugs. They are not going to kill you or strangle you. They are interviewing for a job. Thugs and killers don't apply for job interviews.

    Just open your mind a little bit you might surprise yourself with some of these candidates, or maybe not.  But at least you will find your self not uncomfortable next time the "thug" comes for an interview. You will see them as just a guy that thinks and dress different from your standards, or your workplace standards.

    My advice, try to have some fun with that man, Otherwise you seem like you are going pathoogical on this issue.  


     

     



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    If it's not Donald Knuth hiding under your bed

    Now that's a scary thought...



  • CPound,

    I would love to know where you work so I could come in and interview. I would purposely go out and get some temporary tattoos and fake piercings (tongue, nose, etc.) and show up to annoy you.

    But you know what? As much as CPound gripes about tattoos and piercings, I bet if an attractive woman came in sporting them he would be ok with that.

    As a matter of fact, I think there's something very "closet" about the whole thing. You're secretly into all that, aren't you CPound? 



  • The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that CPound is actually a woman.  Because if he is a man, he is in serious need of growing a pair.



  • @newguy said:

    As a matter of fact, I think there's something very "closet" about the whole thing. You're secretly into all that, aren't you CPound? 

    No, I am not into that stuff. I don't secretly have tats and piercings under my clothes.

    You all think I'm some old, fuddy-duddy. But that's only because I grew up in a previous generation before you. When I was going to college, the only piercings were those in girls' ears. And tats would only be found on bikers or hardcore gang-bangers.

    We now live in an age where every part of the body can and should have a piercing. I see little kids with their arms covered in tats (and not the temporary type). It's now "cool" to go to jail (a la Nicole Ritchie's comments about Paris).

    If I would have grown up in this age and had a weak will, I'm sure I would be covered in tats and have multiple facial and genital piercings. I probably would have been incarcerated several times too. Because Paris and Nicole think it's "cool".

    But I am so glad I did not grow up in this time. My body is still intact and I have no prison record.

    Basically what I'm getting at is that it's a new era. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or lose my morals or sense of judgment just to "fit in". I'm going to stick with my beliefs and you guys can continue being "bad boys".  But don't get upset when conservative people like me don't hire you.



  • What exactly was it you studied in college anyway?

    -cw 



  • @CPound said:

    You all think I'm some old, fuddy-duddy. But that's only because I grew up in a previous generation before you.

    "You think I'm old, but that's only because I'm old"

    You're also senile.

     

    But don't get upset when conservative people like me don't hire you.

    Pretty sure that many of us have said we're glad we don't work for you. 



  • @asuffield said:

    "You think I'm old, but that's only because I'm old"

    You're also senile.

    Oh why don't you go commit a crime and land yourself in jail like Ritchie and Paris tell you to. 



  • May 20,
    2006:<O:P></O:P>

    [quote
    user="CPound"]<O:P></O:P>

    The
    problem with most of the people in this forum is that they are intimidated by
    the younger generation. The new generation is moving much faster, and climbing
    the corporate ladder more quickly than any previous generation. It sucks for
    the old school to see all these guys in their early 20's making major $$$. I
    try to see it from the "fuddy-duddy" viewpoint, and hey, I would be
    pissed too.<O:P></O:P>

    [/quote]<O:P></O:P>

     <O:P></O:P>

    June 10,
    2007:<O:P></O:P>

    [quote
    user="CPound"]<O:P></O:P>

    You all
    think I'm some old, fuddy-duddy. But that's only because I grew up in a
    previous generation before you. When I was going to college, the only piercings
    were those in girls' ears. And tats would only be found on bikers or hardcore
    gang-bangers.<O:P></O:P>

    [/quote]<O:P></O:P>

     <O:P></O:P>

    It seems
    like in the course of a year, you went from being "the younger
    generation" which the rest of us are intimidated by, to being the older
    generation intimidated by tattoos.  <O:P></O:P>

     <O:P></O:P>

    -cw<O:P></O:P>



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    <O:P></O:P>It seems
    like in the course of a year, you went from being "the younger
    generation" which the rest of us are intimidated by, to being the older
    generation intimidated by tattoos.

    When I wrote that I considered myself as such, but now that I've had some time to get adjusted to my new management role I realize just how difficult it is. People look at managers and call them "suits" and "stuffy" or whatever conservative term you want to use, but their job is hard. We have to weed through so many garbage candidates to get to the ones that can actually be responsible.

    In some respects, I still consider myself part of the younger generation. Meaning: younger than the COBOL programmers of the 60s (or whenever their heyday was). But, please understand that I want nothing to do with this current amoral generation. They sicken me with their "body art" and their "prison is cool" mentalities.

    Where are we headed as human beings when now prison is cool?



  • By your definition, we are apparently of the same 'generation', though it sounds like I am probably 10-12 years older than you.  I've been fairly connected to 'youth culture' (returning to university a little later, hosting a radio show, my wife taught university students) but don't have any idea where you get "prison is cool" from... 

    If you want to talk about glamorizing crime, that started long before...think every mob movie ever made. 

    But....huh?

    -cw



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    If you want to talk about glamorizing crime, that started long before...think every mob movie ever made. 

    But....huh?

    I'm not talking about glamorizing the crime itself. I'm talking about glamorizing the prison time, or time served, or incarceration...whatever flavor you want. It's like a badge of acceptance nowadays. Have you not been following the whole Paris Hilton/Nicole Ritchie story?

    Look on YouTube for Ritchie's interview. She says something to the effect of "everybody's doing it these days". Referring to prison time.



  • No, I do my best to stay well away from the intellectual black hole that surround those two  

    Well, anyone placing any weight on what those two half-watt bulbs has to say is suspect to start with; however, some half-hearted attempt to spin her friend's jailt ime into something more hardly makes a generational culture shift toward "prison = cool".  

    There are plenty of things going on the world these days that scare me -- the ongoing assault on scientific reason, deep corruption in the public & private sector, the labelling of anyone who demands accountability of public officials as "emboldening the enemy", and the entertainification of the news into something that actually cares what Paris & Nicole have to say...  by comparison to all of that, those two bubbleheads are a miniscule part of the problem.

    -cw



  • perfect interview question though.

    "Do you often find yourself agreeing with paris hilton"

    "yes"

    "thank you for your time, that's all we need to know for now, you shouldn't be expecting a call." 

     

    And if he/she's got tattoo's or spikes or long hair or whatever, you can say the "n't" in "shouldn't" very silently, and they might even think it's positive. 



  • @tster said:

    The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that CPound is actually a woman.  Because if he is a man, he is in serious need of growing a pair.

    Yeah, seriously.  Quit being such a pussy.  You're supposedly in a leadership position yet you wet your pants at the sight of a tattoo.



    And WTF?  I find it hard to believe there is that great of an influx of biker-gang programmers. 



  • @CPound said:

    I don't secretly have tats and piercings under my clothes.

    Of course you don't have them, you just wish you did and never had the guts to get a tat or a piercing, so you resent those who did get theirs when they wanted to.



  • @CPound said:

    We now live in an age where every part of the body can and should have a piercing. I see little kids with their arms covered in tats (and not the temporary type). It's now "cool" to go to jail (a la Nicole Ritchie's comments about Paris).

    If I would have grown up in this age and had a weak will, I'm sure I would be covered in tats and have multiple facial and genital piercings. I probably would have been incarcerated several times too. Because Paris and Nicole think it's "cool".

    But I am so glad I did not grow up in this time. My body is still intact and I have no prison record.

    Basically what I'm getting at is that it's a new era. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or lose my morals or sense of judgment just to "fit in". I'm going to stick with my beliefs and you guys can continue being "bad boys".  But don't get upset when conservative people like me don't hire you.

    What is wrong with you? Are you hiring programmers on the sidewalk in the ghetto or the trailer park? You're off your rocker, man. This post proves it. You're an open-and-shut case.



  • My big question is "when exactly did he grow up?"   When didn't "those dang kids" seem to have lost judgement or morals.  The 60s?  Don't even get me started.  The 70s?  With all that dancing and casual sex (and/or punk rock)?  Don't think so.  80s?  Those were my years and I'm sure my blue hair & industrial music would have given him fits.  The 90s?  That's when tattoos & piercings really took off as a popular coolness.

    During each of those time periods, there were people who were 'frightened' of those damn hippies/punks/freaks... ("uh oh, those hippies might try to make me smoke the pot!")   Not much you can do about it, it's just a little sad that those are the criteria he chooses to judge his applicants on.

    -cw



  • @CPound said:

    Look on YouTube for Ritchie's interview. She says something to the effect of "everybody's doing it these days". Referring to prison time.

    Both myself and my coworker have criminal records. Boo yah! 



  • shadowman: "WTF?  I find it hard to believe there is that great of an influx of biker-gang programmers." 

     

    er... that would be me. Back when I was younger and more reckless. Now I only occasionally throttle stuffy interviewers.

     BTW - Harleys turn you sterile, so I gave it all up. I still ride a rice-burner tho...



  • @kirchhoff said:

    Both myself and my coworker have criminal records. Boo yah! 

    And you're proud of that? 


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