You have the right to 10Mbps



  • undefined That's not how rights work.



  • @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    undefined That's not how rights work.

    Our good old friend </sarcasm>--the malicious confusion between positive rights and negative rights. Hint: only one type are real rights.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    Quite apart from the whole thing of enumerated and unenumerated rights…

    It's just a minimum service standard that builds on top of previous decisions that people have a general (though conditional) right to use the internet. Given how many important services work that way, it's reasonable to have a right to physical access for a (legally) reasonable charge. All we've got here is an update to the exactly the point at which people can get court orders to compel their relevant provider (probably BT Openreach) to make infrastructure improvements.

    It makes no odds at all to me personally. It will make more difference to people who live in rural areas.



  • @dkf said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    Given how many important services work that way, it's reasonable to have a right to physical access for a (legally) reasonable charge.

    No, but it might be reasonable for providers to be obligated to provide that access for a (legally) reasonable charge. I know, it's semantics, but this one is important, because you are putting obligations on others.



  • @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    In what way is that not how that rights work?

    In most countries, you have the legal right to housing, water, electricity, postal service and internet.



  • @anonymous234 Yes, how dastardly of the state to provide me with the right to electricity!



  • @anonymous234 said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    In what way is that not how that rights work?

    In most countries, you have the legal right to housing, water, electricity, postal service and internet.

    Meaning that you can force others to pay for them? Even if you do nothing for yourself? You have the legal privilege (in it's correct meaning) to demand others servitude, but you don't have the right to demand it, unless slavery is a thing.



  • @benjamin-hall said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @anonymous234 said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    In what way is that not how that rights work?

    In most countries, you have the legal right to housing, water, electricity, postal service and internet.

    Meaning that you can force others to pay for them? Even if you do nothing for yourself? You have the legal privilege (in it's correct meaning) to demand others servitude, but you don't have the right to demand it, unless slavery is a thing.

    Wah? Seriously, how did you get from "a right to be provided with something" to "force someone to provide something for free"?

    Also, the "slavery" thing only works if corporations are people. Oh, wait, I forgot...



  • Yeah, how dare the UK have slightly different definitions of words than the US.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    No, but it might be reasonable for providers to be obligated to provide that access for a (legally) reasonable charge. I know, it's semantics, but this one is important, because you are putting obligations on others.

    In this case, it's almost certainly about controlling what BT Openreach do. They're the domestic infrastructure part of the old telco monopoly, and while they're very much still a monopoly, they're also regulated extremely tightly and are kept well separated from the rest of the telco (in particular, you don't buy telecoms service from them, and there are regulations about allowing non-BT providers to use the Openreach infrastructure).

    Why some idiotic mouth-breather of a journalist decided to call it a Right…



  • @rhywden said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @benjamin-hall said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @anonymous234 said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    In what way is that not how that rights work?

    In most countries, you have the legal right to housing, water, electricity, postal service and internet.

    Meaning that you can force others to pay for them? Even if you do nothing for yourself? You have the legal privilege (in it's correct meaning) to demand others servitude, but you don't have the right to demand it, unless slavery is a thing.

    Wah? Seriously, how did you get from "a right to be provided with something" to "force someone to provide something for free"?

    Also, the "slavery" thing only works if corporations are people. Oh, wait, I forgot...

    The right to be provided with something (in a world where such things cost resources ) is indistinguishable from a right to get free crap and from slavery (or theft). You're forcibly taking the fruits of someone else's labors for your own at gunpoint (just conveniently abstracted through the fiction of government). Make no mistake. People are the ones who are losing what they've earned to pay for your supposed rights.

    That's why negative rights (the right to not be stopped from doing X ) are the only real rights. The others are just privileges granted by governments to people they consider special. It's white privilege, just for real, and not racially associated.



  • @dkf I think the problem stems from some confusion over a very narrow definition of the word "right".



  • @benjamin-hall said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @rhywden said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @benjamin-hall said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @anonymous234 said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @boomzilla said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    That's not how rights work.

    In what way is that not how that rights work?

    In most countries, you have the legal right to housing, water, electricity, postal service and internet.

    Meaning that you can force others to pay for them? Even if you do nothing for yourself? You have the legal privilege (in it's correct meaning) to demand others servitude, but you don't have the right to demand it, unless slavery is a thing.

    Wah? Seriously, how did you get from "a right to be provided with something" to "force someone to provide something for free"?

    Also, the "slavery" thing only works if corporations are people. Oh, wait, I forgot...

    The right to be provided with something (in a world where such things cost resources ) is indistinguishable from a right to get free crap and from slavery (or theft). You're forcibly taking the fruits of someone else's labors for your own at gunpoint (just conveniently abstracted through the fiction of government). Make no mistake. People are the ones who are losing what they've earned to pay for your supposed rights.

    That's why negative rights (the right to not be stopped from doing X ) are the only real rights. The others are just privileges granted by governments to people they consider special. It's white privilege, just for real, and not racially associated.

    No, as I just said, you're defining the word "right" very narrow. Just because you think that a word means something doesn't mean that your idea of its meaning is identical with the legal definition.
    Not to mention that it's a fucking different country. Your US notions don't necessarily apply.



  • @rhywden said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    Seriously, how did you get from "a right to be provided with something" to "force someone to provide something for free"?

    In the US, "you have a right to ______" means that everyone has that right, and furthermore, the basic minimum to meet the right must be provided, regardless of someone's ability to pay for it.

    Hence why this follows: "You have to right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you".



  • @anotherusername said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @rhywden said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    Seriously, how did you get from "a right to be provided with something" to "force someone to provide something for free"?

    In the US, "you have a right to ______" means that everyone has that right, and furthermore, the basic minimum to meet the right must be provided, regardless of someone's ability to pay for it.

    Hence why this follows: "You have to right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided for you".

    That's nice. Have you guys ever considered that you're not the center of the universe?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @benjamin-hall said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    Meaning that you can force others to pay for them?

    Well, in this case we're talking about a service that you have a right to purchase, but not a duty to do so. Nor does anyone have a duty to purchase it for you on your behalf. The story was about updating the definition what level of service would be considered by courts to be an adequate discharge of provision of that service to satisfy that right, should a court order be sought as part of an attempt by someone to exercise that right to purchase.

    I tend to think of rights and duties as the mathematical duals of each other. If I have the right to do X, it means that I do not have the duty to not do X; if I have the duty to do Y, it means that I do not have the right to not do Y.



  • @rhywden FYI, @Benjamin-Hall is from the US, and I'm guessing that's how he got an idea which apparently seemed foreign to you.



  • @anotherusername said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @rhywden FYI, @Benjamin-Hall is from the US, and I'm guessing that's how he got an idea which apparently seemed foreign to you.

    That's nice. We're talking about something the UNITED KINGDOM does. He can split hairs about the US all day long. It doesn't matter a iota.

    By the way, we Germans have the right to found our own private school.

    Does that now mean that somehow someone will be forced to finance this thing as soon as we got the idea?



  • @rhywden said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    @anonymous234 Yes, how dastardly of the state to provide me with the right to electricity!

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It makes no sense.



  • @dkf said in You have the right to 10Mbps:

    I tend to think of rights and duties as the mathematical duals of each other. If I have the right to do X, it means that I do not have the duty to not do X; if I have the duty to do Y, it means that I do not have the right to not do Y.

    Precisely. Thank you for that phrasing.


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