Ultra rapid learning of Python


  • Banned

    @kian and from what I read over here, it doesn't matter after getting hired either.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    while Rust is avant garde of programming languagre theory

    I believe it is an academic generation or two back actually, much in line with many of the current javascript engines, but still well in advance of C# (and light years ahead of plain C). Of course, the different languages use different parts of CS theory. There's no reason why anyone would insist on USING ALL THE THINGS, and it would drive one quite mad to even attempt it.

    If Rust is special in anything, it's in being close to the apotheosis of a Bondage and Discipline language. 🐠


  • Banned

    @dkf said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I believe it is an academic generation or two back actually

    Only because no one dared to try anything new since 2001.



  • @dkf said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    There's no reason why anyone would insist on USING ALL THE THINGS, and it would drive one quite mad to even attempt it.

    Hah! Tell that to the C++ standardization committee.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @kian said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Hah! Tell that to the C++ standardization committee.

    I believe the word “mad” covers them quite nicely.


  • kills Dumbledore

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @blakeyrat "it doesn't matter how much you suck at programming, good presence is the only thing that matters"?

    Not the only thing but it is important. Interview soft skills are as much of a skill as programming and something most people do need to learn. Once you get good at interviewing, you can bluff your way into jobs which are far better than what you'd manage on job skills alone


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Only because no one dared to try anything new since 2001.

    There's been some interesting work in induced types. I can see the parallels with work I was doing with Galois connections back about 20 years ago, but the addition of SSA's φ nodes considerably simplifies things. Alas, one of the hard parts is that there's an infinite number of facts that can be established about any non-trivial program (necessarily so, or you'd be able to solve the Halting Problem); identifying which ones are most beneficial as type inducers is rather tricky indeed.


  • Considered Harmful

    @jaloopa said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Rust is avant garde of programming languagre theory

    But incapable of hosting a GUI platform

    What, you mean like conrod?


  • Banned

    @jaloopa said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @blakeyrat "it doesn't matter how much you suck at programming, good presence is the only thing that matters"?

    Not the only thing but it is important. Interview soft skills are as much of a skill as programming and something most people do need to learn. Once you get good at interviewing, you can bluff your way into jobs which are far better than what you'd manage on job skills alone

    I wish these interviewing skills were as easy to learn as C++ template metaprogramming. I'd get a job in no time.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @dkf said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I believe it is an academic generation or two back actually, much in line with many of the current javascript engines, but still well in advance of C# (and light years ahead of plain C). Of course, the different languages use different parts of CS theory. There's no reason why anyone would insist on USING ALL THE THINGS, and it would drive one quite mad to even attempt it.

    :wtf:

    Did you seriously just imply that JavaScript is more advanced than C#?!?



  • @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @blakeyrat "it doesn't matter how much you suck at programming, good presence is the only thing that matters"?

    I'd phrase it the other way around:

    It doesn't matter how good you are at programming unless you can present yourself respectably.

    All else being equal, companies are going to hire the guy who's good at programming over the guy who's not. However, companies are never going to hire the guy who looks like a coke fiend (not saying this is how you presented yourself; just an example) regardless of his programming ability.

    @jaloopa said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Once you get good at interviewing, you can bluff your way into jobs which are far better than what you'd manage on job skills alone

    Exactly. Hell I have a friend who barely does anything on a daily basis, and not only does he have an amazing job, but he also has enough sway to get me hired on in addition. Why? He's personable, funny, can bluff his way through technical discussions (whether or not he knows the underlying technology), can talk about technical things with non-technical people (NEVER underestimate how important this is) and has a good knowledge of the market and industry we're in.

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I wish these interviewing skills were as easy to learn as C++ template metaprogramming. I'd get a job in no time.

    That's why:

    • You need to take every chance you can to interview or be interviewed
    • When an interview doesn't work out, you need to look at it as a hugely positive experience: how much more real could your interview training be than a real interview? You learned so much!

  • Banned

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    All else being equal, companies are going to hire the guy who's good at programming over the guy who's not.

    Sorry, but this sounds like that line I heard from teachers in high school: "it's very important to have a high good conduct grade because when you apply to college, there is a possibility that after summing up points for finals, points for grades, points for competition achievements and points for extracurricular activities, you might end up tied with someone else for the 350th place and the deciding factor might be this good conduct grade".

    Either programming is important in becoming programmer, or it isn't.

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    You need to take every chance you can to interview or be interviewed

    Doing otherwise would be counterproductive to getting a job. And not because of missed extra practice.

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    When an interview doesn't work out, you need to look at it as a hugely positive experience: how much more real could your interview training be than a real interview? You learned so much!

    Except I have no feedback at all on my performance, so I can only guess what I did wrong. Over hundreds of iterations, I might start getting some clues right eventually. And as soon as I get one instance of positive feedback, I'll stop interviewing.



  • @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Except I have no feedback at all on my performance, so I can only guess what I did wrong.

    Ask for feedback. What's stopping you?

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Either programming is important in becoming programmer, or it isn't.

    It is important, it's just not most important.

    Look at it this way: Google hires "great" (by their definition) programmers, yet all of their products are complete shit. Why is that? Because the people they hire are only programmers, none of them are well-rounded. None of them talk to non-programmers on a daily basis. Hardly any of them even leave the Googleplex and talk to a normal person during lunch. So the software sucks, because there's no soft skills being used at all.

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Doing otherwise would be counterproductive to getting a job. And not because of missed extra practice.

    Right; but I'm not just talking about job interviews. You can set up practice interviews with someone also.


  • Banned

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Except I have no feedback at all on my performance, so I can only guess what I did wrong.

    Ask for feedback. What's stopping you?

    I don't know. It just never occured to me it's okay to reply to an email saying "we really liked you, but we'd rather go with someone else at the moment" with "okay, so what exactly did I fuck up?".

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Look at it this way: Google hires "great" (by their definition) programmers, yet all of their products are complete shit. Why is that? Because the people they hire are only programmers, none of them are well-rounded. None of them talk to non-programmers on a daily basis. Hardly any of them even leave the Googleplex and talk to a normal person during lunch. So the software sucks, because there's no soft skills being used at all.

    How is that helping me in getting a job? I don't care about anything else in the entire world at the moment - I'm willing to do anything and everything to get a job. I even considered pulling off a reverse Lauren Southern and then signing up to varioius orgs that exclusively help women.

    Edit: Google says there were exactly two people who used "reverse Lauren Southern" before me.



  • @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I don't know. It just never occured to me it's okay to reply to an email saying "we really liked you, but we'd rather go with someone else at the moment" with "okay, so what exactly did I fuck up?".

    Don't do that.

    Try something like, "hey, would it be possible to get on a call for a second and talk about my interview? I'd like to get some feedback I can use for next time."

    Note that you're asking a favor from them, so don't act entitled or rude and don't count on getting feedback from that person. But you'll get a positive response a high percentage of the time, in my experience.

    Always prefer face-to-face or a call over an email or IM. The more you talk to the employer, the better your chance of being their default go-to next time they need someone in a bind, so talk to them as much as polite society allows. The more they see and use your name, the better off you are. Who knows, maybe the guy they do hire turns out to be a turd, and you'll be at the top of the list then.

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    How is that helping me in getting a job?

    It doesn't? Where did I claim it did?

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I don't care about anything else in the entire world at the moment - I'm willing to do anything and everything to get a job.

    ... except pop off an email asking for interview feedback, apparently.

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I even considered pulling off a reverse Lauren Southern

    Yah I don't know what that is.

    ... based on a quick Google, I'd recommend not bringing up Lauren Southern's name during any interview or, indeed, any business communication at all.


  • Banned

    @blakeyrat as I said, it never occured to me it's a thing I can do. I still don't quite believe it might ever get me anything immediately useful, but I might give it a try.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @masonwheeler said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    Did you seriously just imply that JavaScript is more advanced than C#?!?

    Yes, in a very particular technical sense. Of course, that sense isn't one that is used by most users of programming languages. ;)

    Optimising a language with just static types is pretty easy: there are things that you can do and that's about that. You end up getting down to a virtual assembler with a whole pack of assertions about what guarantees can be made, and then there's a bunch more things you can do, but it really isn't very significant at that point. And when your input language is largely structured around static types, the temptation is to deal with those dynamic type issues that occur by just doing the most general thing: it's easy to get that right, though at a cost of a lot of overheads. Ultimately, it comes down to managing aliasing and side-effects.

    Doing a good job with a dynamic language is considerably more challenging. Very often the problem is grounding it enough that you can start thinking about unboxing the values at all, and without the unboxing your performance will be a load of 🐄 💩 for sure. The really fun part lies in trying to determine just how much dynamism can be maintained and at what cost.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    has a good knowledge of the market and industry we're in

    That's a really useful thing to seek to gain. It's the big thing that more senior people have as an advantage over their juniors; that which makes them so much more employable and valuable. But it's also the thing that takes a serious amount of effort to get.



  • @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @blakeyrat as I said, it never occured to me it's a thing I can do.

    There's not really a rulebook.

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    I still don't quite believe it might ever get me anything immediately useful, but I might give it a try.

    Seems to me like you have absolutely nothing to lose.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @gąska said in Ultra rapid learning of Python:

    @blakeyrat as I said, it never occured to me it's a thing I can do. I still don't quite believe it might ever get me anything immediately useful, but I might give it a try.

    You definitely should. First, you might learn something that helps you out the next time. You also get more professional interaction practice. Finally (and this is a long shot) it might make you stand out to them and they might take another look at you, now or in the future for following up, etc.


  • kills Dumbledore

    If you know anybody who's in HR or hiring, it might be worth asking if they mind doing a mock interview with you. that way there's zero pressure and they can tell you exactly what you did right and wrong. I did this before I broke into the programming world, and although I was mostly OK there were a couple of big things I was doing wrong that I hadn't realised. Once I was aware I was able to stop doing that and focus on improving the good parts as well. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of job applications since then that I've got to the interview stage and not had an offer


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