Power user


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @kt_ said in Power user:

    Another app is probably the strongest here. It doesn’t have much of an appeal to me (messages app on iOS is great), but I understand it might for other people.

    Yeah, that's the whole iOS vs Android thing - I much prefer the ability to change it, because there's always something missing even from the best first party app...

    @kt_ said in Power user:

    Shouldn’t phone backup system be doing this?

    They can't - probably because "OH NO GOOGLE HAS YOUR TEXT MESSAGES PRIVACY OH NO"



  • @hungrier said in Power user:

    @kt_ said in Power user:

    @atazhaia said in Power user:

    @lb_ said in Power user:

    the user-facing permissions system in Android is nonsensically stupid

    That I can agree on. The category system gives little control. You want an app to read SMS? Well, now it can also send SMS because the send permission will be automatically granted as long as you've given the read permission.

    Why would you give an app access to your SMS?

    Because (e.g.) Textra is much better than Shitty Samsung Default SMS or whatever

    You mean people don't actually use VZ Messenger?


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @pie_flavor said in Power user:

    @hungrier said in Power user:

    @kt_ said in Power user:

    @atazhaia said in Power user:

    @lb_ said in Power user:

    the user-facing permissions system in Android is nonsensically stupid

    That I can agree on. The category system gives little control. You want an app to read SMS? Well, now it can also send SMS because the send permission will be automatically granted as long as you've given the read permission.

    Why would you give an app access to your SMS?

    Because (e.g.) Textra is much better than Shitty Samsung Default SMS or whatever

    You mean people don't actually use VZ Messenger?

    It confused my grandma.


    Filed under: Anecdotal



  • @remi said in Power user:

    Same here, but that's also because I am cheap and have a tiny allowance so if I left it on it would disappear in a couple of days, even with the most frugal of apps.

    I did that, too, until quite recently, but when I was on my business trip, I got tired of driving around an unfamiliar state without being able to access Google Maps, so I upgraded to a plan with a useful amount of data. 50% more money; 15900% more data.



  • @hardwaregeek said in Power user:

    @remi said in Power user:

    Same here, but that's also because I am cheap and have a tiny allowance so if I left it on it would disappear in a couple of days, even with the most frugal of apps.

    I did that, too, until quite recently, but when I was on my business trip, I got tired of driving around an unfamiliar state without being able to access Google Maps, so I upgraded to a plan with a useful amount of data. 50% more money; 15900% more data.

    I might do the same one day, yes. Except that it would be more like 800% more money, but since I'm starting from a ridiculously low cost, the actual difference isn't that large.

    Then again, most of the time when I'm away from a "real" computer connected to the net (i.e. when I would be able to benefit from mobile data), I am in the countryside where even mobile phone coverage is patchy, so I wouldn't benefit that much from being able to use mobile data!



  • @dkf said in Power user:

    @remi said in Power user:

    Google Play Services, which seems to be the underlying engine used by almost all other Google apps?

    It's the core of the user-level layer of the OS.

    It's not really part of the OS. It is the part that connects to the Google online stuff. Apps that don't do anything with your Google account won't need them. However most Google apps do and therefore they do.

    @remi said in Power user:

    But it is hugely confusing (to me as a user) to have its name contain "Google", "Play" and nothing like "core" or "system".

    The name contains “Google”, because it is the stuff related to the Google services, not the system ones. It contains Play, because Google (like Microsoft) likes to reuse their brands.

    I believe it takes care of things like push notification. That is why if you go to the data usage page in settings, it will have significant usage though you never interact with it directly. It also takes care of things like verifying you actually purchased the application from store for the paid ones and implements in-app purchases. So a lot of it has to do with Play Store, but some has to do with other Google stuff. But it's all Google stuff.

    @remi said in Power user:

    But there is a non-Google replacement for most, if not all, apps (e.g. GMail and various mail apps, Chrome and various other browsers etc.)

    The real problem is that the apps can't declare that they depend on something. If it could, then you'd know which applications actually use Play Services and which use Chrome (Android 5 and 6 have separate “Android System WebView”, but from 7 on it is provided by Chrome, so many applications depend on it—and can't say so).

    @remi said in Power user:

    Also, it would be nice if non-uninstallable apps were only the core ones. No, Youtube and Facebook are not "core apps" without which my phone cannot work at all. I should be able not only to deactivate them, but to remove them entirely

    This is the vendor crap. Samsung has heaps of them. I have ASUS, which has a bit less, but still quite a few. But Pixels have just the basic Google stuff, so does Motorola, Lenovo is switching to that with it's original product lines too. There should be other brands with minimum or no cruft as well.



  • @bulb said in Power user:

    @remi said in Power user:

    But it is hugely confusing (to me as a user) to have its name contain "Google", "Play" and nothing like "core" or "system".

    The name contains “Google”, because it is the stuff related to the Google services, not the system ones. It contains Play, because Google (like Microsoft) likes to reuse their brands.

    The problem I have with this is that it does make perfect sense for a dev (or someone who knows the internals of the system), but not much to the end user.

    As a user, if I see something called "Play", well first I've got to learn that in Google-lingo "play" has nothing to do with games or music or movies but with apps, which in itself is a :wtf: for me (it may make sense when selling to casual users to say "come play with all our apps" but as phones are used for more and more stuff, it makes less and less sense -- a business user is not going to "play" with Outlook or Office or whatever business app he uses!), but OK, I can learn that "play" = "app store". And then I see this "Play Services" and I have to learn that actually, it has nothing to do with the app store itself, more to what some apps can or cannot do.

    That's like mentioning a "database" when talking to a business user about his email program. It may be true that the mailer uses a database to store mails (or contacts or whatever), so it may make perfect sense for a dev to mention a database, but it is likely that for the user, the "database" is related to his business processes and activities, not to email.

    In other words, sloppy usability.

    The real problem is that the apps can't declare that they depend on something. If it could, then you'd know which applications actually use Play Services and which use Chrome

    That is a very good point. It would clarify a lot of things.

    @remi said in Power user:

    Also, it would be nice if non-uninstallable apps were only the core ones. No, Youtube and Facebook are not "core apps" without which my phone cannot work at all. I should be able not only to deactivate them, but to remove them entirely

    This is the vendor crap.

    I know, which makes it even more irksome, because it's not like it happens when vendors are lazy and package the default Android, it happens when they explicitly go out of their way to add some apps that cannot be removed!

    Also, it makes it even more difficult to know what really is critical and what is not. Back to my Google Play Services example, when I see that next to another vendor-crap un-installable game called "<Constructor> Play" (OK, I'm making that up, but you get the idea), how can I tell that one of those is just a random app that I can't uninstall, and the other is a core part of the system that I really, really, don't want to turn off?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @bulb said in Power user:

    I believe it takes care of things like push notification.

    Also quite a bit of location handling and delegated service authentication.


  • kills Dumbledore

    @remi said in Power user:

    As a user, if I see something called "Play", well first I've got to learn that in Google-lingo "play" has nothing to do with games or music or movies but with apps

    Um, actually

    The Google play store has games, apps, video and music. It's Google lingo for entertainment if anything


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @jaloopa said in Power user:

    The Google play store has games, apps, video and music. It's Google lingo for entertainment if anything

    It's all their downloadable offerings in one ecosystem, whether productivity or entertainment, app or pure data.



  • @jaloopa OK, but my point is that "play" means much more than just "playing", whether it's about playing a game or playing a movie.

    I've never "played" with my spreadsheet software or any other business application. I don't "play" with the rail company time tables. I don't "play" with my email.

    I get that it's their buzzword, but they are still taking a word with a fairly well defined set of meanings and applying to something that can be widely different. I'd rather have an "app store" than a "play store", there is much less ambiguity.



  • @remi blame Apple. For a while they tried to trademark "app store" and were suing anyone who used that phrase.



  • @sloosecannon said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    @remi said in Power user:

    (also, it would be nice if non-uninstallable apps were only the core ones. No, Youtube and Facebook are not "core apps" without which my phone cannot work at all. I should be able not only to deactivate them, but to remove them entirely)

    So much this. There are about a dozen apps I'd like to remove from my phone (additional examples include WhatsApp, Instagram, and Hangouts) but can't. Not only do they take up space which I could use for things I actually want, but they suck up a significant part of my data cap by constantly needing to be updated.

    I'm in the habit now of leaving my data connection turned off most of the time, and only turning it on when I have a specific need to use it (mainly to suppress annoying and very data-hungry video ads in games, but it's also nice to reduce the update traffic). It's kind of sad that I have to do that; it wasn't necessary with any of my previous (non-Android) phones, even though I had lower data caps with them.

    ?

    0_1507182969212_Screenshot_20171005-015540.png

    (that's the default, btw, I never changed that setting)

    I think he was going on about 'talkative' apps that phone home more often than is necessary - basically this setting:
    0_1507547566671_Screenshot_2017-10-09-12-05-46.png



  • @remi Yeah, in that way the old name Android Market was better. I guess Google Play was chosen to tie together with all their other Play services, which do involve music and movies (although not all are).



  • @remi They wanted to put everything in one store, not for your benefit but for their own. They have a billion people who want to download apps. You put some music and books in front of them and 1% will buy some. Profit.

    So they had to come up with some name for "store for downloadable content".



  • @anonymous234 @Atazhaia @remi
    "Google Market" would have been better than "Google Play".

    But buzzword marketing and managers...



  • @anonymous234 That's fine. But why the heck they had to reuse the name in ‘Play Services’ where it has nothing to do with ‘Play Store’ but rather with any services associated to the google account, both user-visible like federated authentication, and technical, like push notifications?

    Also, Google of all persons should know that to make a brand that is easy to search for the name should be a neologism and definitely shouldn't be a common word. ‘Google’ itself fits fine (it didn't mean anything before), but lately all their brands tend to be common words.



  • @dkf said in Power user:

    @steve_the_cynic said in Power user:

    This guy isn't a power user. He's a power moron.

    I like that phrase.

    power breaker


  • Dupa

    @remi said in Power user:

    @jaloopa OK, but my point is that "play" means much more than just "playing", whether it's about playing a game or playing a movie.

    And it always reminds me of:

    Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed when I opened that app. :(


  • Dupa

    @benjamin-hall said in Power user:

    @remi blame Apple. For a while they tried to trademark "app store" and were suing anyone who used that phrase.

    Yeah, blame Apple for google not being able to name their products and for thinking that “play” is a better word to describe a place where you can get stuff than “market”! This totally makes sense!



  • @kt_

    I mean, "Google Do" would have made more sense.


  • Dupa

    @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_

    I mean, "Google Do" would have made more sense.

    Or “Google All”.



  • @kt_ I would have paid for the license, and called it "Google Git Er Done"


  • Dupa

    @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_ I would have paid for the license, and called it "Google Git Er Done"

    “Google Check Out This Cool Shit We’ve Got For You” app. Sounds awesome! :laughing:



  • @kt_ Google Cool Shit


  • Dupa

    @kt_ said in Power user:

    @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_ I would have paid for the license, and called it "Google Git Er Done"

    “Google Check Out This Cool Shit We’ve Got For You” app. Sounds awesome! :laughing:

    Ok, this needs to be said: “Google Fuck You Give Us Money”.



  • @kt_ Google Get Fucked.



  • @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_

    I mean, "Google Do" would have made more sense.

    Google Doo-doo?

    Filed Under: Google Dookie



  • @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_

    I mean, "Google Do" would have made more sense.

    0_1507664345083_8c738855-1686-4434-8562-c33c19473448-image.png ???



  • @scholrlea said in Power user:

    Google Doo-doo?

    I think that's the name of their department in charge of naming things.



  • @boomzilla

    I want an otherwise cool haircut that looks ridiculous and loses its novelty and recognition and status unless viewed directly from above.



  • @xaade said in Power user:

    @kt_

    I mean, "Google Do" would have made more sense.

    Google Don't ?

    EDIT: Hmm. No. Google Doesn't.



  • @sloosecannon I do want to update my applications a little more often than "whenever I happen to be in the local shopping centre and remember that they have free Wi-Fi".

    One of my annoyances is that the OS isn't really designed for people who don't have Wi-Fi access as their main data channel. (The biggest annoyance: can't use my home network to download large apps, which my other phones were all happy to do over a USB connection to my computer.)



  • @izzion said in Power user:

    I file them in the Deleted Items folder to make sure they're somewhere secure

    :man: Can't/won't you help me?
    shoreline I am helping you. I'm showing you the consequences of your actions and how they match the meanings of words. In this case, you put your emails in the "deleted" folder and the emails were, in turn, "deleted". "Deleted" means to destroy permanently, FYI.

    I'm not popular with my colleagues.



  • @scarlet_manuka You could get a relatively cheap wireless access point so that you could use wifi on your phone at home.



  • @boomzilla I could. Or just get a wireless modem. However, for reasons I've explained elsewhere (but aren't really relevant here), I prefer to keep my home network on a wired basis.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Or just get a wireless modem

    Nope, don't do that, that's a terrible idea. You want to own your access point, don't let the cable company control it.

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    I prefer to keep my home network on a wired basis.

    Yea, but that's causing inconvenience to you, because you're in the 0.0001% that don't have a home WiFi network. Nothing wrong with it, but the OS is gonna be optimized for the most common use case, and that's not you... I know that I would never use USB-as-ethernet, because I've got WiFi (and I doubt that the transfer speeds would be any better - ethernet-over-USB is probably gonna be pretty freaking slow, especially if it's micro-USB)



  • @sloosecannon said in Power user:

    ethernet-over-USB is probably gonna be pretty freaking slow, especially if it's micro-USB

    Obviously, you can't squeeze a lot of bytes through such a small plug.



  • @sloosecannon said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Or just get a wireless modem

    Nope, don't do that, that's a terrible idea. You want to own your access point, don't let the cable company control it.

    "Cable company" is not really a relevant consideration here. But at this point there's no point in changing anything until I'm ready to go NBN anyway.

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    I prefer to keep my home network on a wired basis.

    Yea, but that's causing inconvenience to you

    Sure, and I have no problem with that when it's necessary inconvenience. (Having it wireless would cause other inconveniences which I evaluate as larger, hence the decision to stay wired in the first place.) What annoys me is unnecessary inconvenience, which this seems to me to be, since as I said literally every other phone I've had has been able to do this, and my phone is happy to connect to my PC over USB for every other possible purpose, just not downloading apps.

    I don't think the USB data bandwidth is relevant, because I have put way more music on it than apps, and it was perfectly happy to do the music over USB.



  • @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Having it wireless would cause other inconveniences which I evaluate as larger,

    I'm curious as to what those are.



  • @boomzilla said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Having it wireless would cause other inconveniences which I evaluate as larger,

    I'm curious as to what those are.

    A handy wire is always useful for strangling the worst of users.



  • @maciejasjmj said in Power user:

    Obviously, you can't squeeze a lot of bytes through such a small plug.

    Especially if they're megabytes.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    @sloosecannon said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Or just get a wireless modem

    Nope, don't do that, that's a terrible idea. You want to own your access point, don't let the cable company control it.

    "Cable company" is not really a relevant consideration here. But at this point there's no point in changing anything until I'm ready to go NBN anyway.

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    I prefer to keep my home network on a wired basis.

    Yea, but that's causing inconvenience to you

    Sure, and I have no problem with that when it's necessary inconvenience. (Having it wireless would cause other inconveniences which I evaluate as larger, hence the decision to stay wired in the first place.) What annoys me is unnecessary inconvenience, which this seems to me to be, since as I said literally every other phone I've had has been able to do this, and my phone is happy to connect to my PC over USB for every other possible purpose, just not downloading apps.

    I don't think the USB data bandwidth is relevant, because I have put way more music on it than apps, and it was perfectly happy to do the music over USB.

    I would also be curious as to what those inconveniences are, because I cannot honestly think of any. Also, until you mentioned it, I had never heard of the concept of computer-to-phone tethering. I hardly think it's commonplace.

    I mentioned USB data bandwidth because that's the only possible use I can think of for that form of tethering. If you're gonna use a smartphone, you should really get WiFi. (Or have a good unlimited data plan, one of the two).



  • @hardwaregeek assume you are aware of Navmii? Offline maps...



  • @sloosecannon said in Power user:

    I would also be curious as to what those inconveniences are, because I cannot honestly think of any.

    Do you have kids? I can keep tabs on their Internet activities much more easily if they have to be at the computer desk in the family room to get to it. And the fact that it's in an open space itself induces away from doing anything untoward.

    It's also a somewhat easier environment for security. (Yes, I have remote administration disabled on the router.) But keeping an eye on the kids is the more important reason.

    I had never heard of the concept of computer-to-phone tethering. I hardly think it's commonplace.

    :shrug: Different experiences are different. As I've said, every previous phone I've had has had this. (Does, for example, "Nokia PC Suite" ring a bell with nobody?)


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    I can keep tabs on their Internet activities much more easily if they have to be at the computer desk in the family room to get to it. And the fact that it's in an open space itself induces away from doing anything untoward.

    So put a password on the Wi-Fi and don't share it with them?

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    It's also a somewhat easier environment for security. (Yes, I have remote administration disabled on the router.) But keeping an eye on the kids is the more important reason.

    Slightly easier, but not to a relevant amount... (if that's a risk to you, you've got other problems...)

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Does, for example, "Nokia PC Suite" ring a bell with nobody?

    Never heard of it... :P


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Does, for example, "Nokia PC Suite" ring a bell with nobody?

    No.

    Is it this?

    From the description it sounds like it's supposed to transfer contacts and pictures and stuff, nothing there seems to indicate "Let my phone use my computer's Internet"...


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @tsaukpaetra said in Power user:

    "Let my phone use my computer's Internet"

    Though I'm now extremely curious and want to try this "reverse tethering" ability with a data-less phone.



  • @tsaukpaetra said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Does, for example, "Nokia PC Suite" ring a bell with nobody?

    No.

    Is it this?

    Ah, branding changed a little when they got bought out by MS, yes.

    From the description it sounds like it's supposed to transfer contacts and pictures and stuff, nothing there seems to indicate "Let my phone use my computer's Internet"...

    :interrobang: Did you actually go to the page at all, or just read the onebox? The actual description on the page says this:

    With Nokia Suite you can use your PC to get software updates for your phone, back up your data, get new street maps and synchronise your music, photos and contacts.

    It's literally the first thing it says you can do with it. (And it doesn't just mean system software updates, it did the whole app store thing; you could browse and install new software of your choice.) And in fact, it's the only thing I ever really used it for. Everything else I copied to my phones was just by having them present as USB storage.

    I can see where there might be some confusion; when I've talked about this it's always been in the context of downloading large applications, but I probably haven't explicitly said "not necessarily all internet use ever". I'm not asking for full reverse tethering. I'd just like to be able to install and update software that way.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    @tsaukpaetra said in Power user:

    @scarlet_manuka said in Power user:

    Does, for example, "Nokia PC Suite" ring a bell with nobody?

    No.

    Is it this?

    Ah, branding changed a little when they got bought out by MS, yes.

    From the description it sounds like it's supposed to transfer contacts and pictures and stuff, nothing there seems to indicate "Let my phone use my computer's Internet"...

    :interrobang: Did you actually go to the page at all, or just read the onebox? The actual description on the page says this:

    With Nokia Suite you can use your PC to get software updates for your phone, back up your data, get new street maps and synchronise your music, photos and contacts.

    It's literally the first thing it says you can do with it. (And it doesn't just mean system software updates, it did the whole app store thing; you could browse and install new software of your choice.) And in fact, it's the only thing I ever really used it for. Everything else I copied to my phones was just by having them present as USB storage.

    I can see where there might be some confusion; when I've talked about this it's always been in the context of downloading large applications, but I probably haven't explicitly said "not necessarily all internet use ever". I'm not asking for full reverse tethering. I'd just like to be able to install and update software that way.

    Ah. See, the only devices I've had that ever offered the ability to use my PC to manage my Apps was with my Pocket PC and my iPhone, and on both devices this functionality was broken in its own way.


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