Mafia Championship: Final Round Spectator Thread


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    Not a good start:

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    @yamikuronue How did Yraelz get in?


  • SockDev

    Um... why is the opening flavour split across two posts?
    0_1504014729794_57494b4e-97e9-4c53-9512-fda73e31b53a-image.png

    Also, there's 15 players, yet the flavour only mentions 13. At least it's well written this time.


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    ZOMG...up to 13 pages already?


  • SockDev

    @boomzilla I haven't read them all, but the first page at least was little more than spam, random voting, and pure metagaming. Later posts do seem to be a bit more substantial though.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Thoughts as I catch up:

    • Remember that shitposting day 1 is pretty common on MU, so while it's weird to read, it ends up being non-indicative
    • It's going to be harder for Maciej this game (whichever side he's on) because more people seem to know each other already
    • Voxx vs Kami -- what do you guys think? that'd go in my notes file if I was playing
    • Dels comes out strong anti-Voxx... I just don't know if you can be that certain this early in the game, Day1 is always a shitshow.
    • oh hey I remember Yraelz. He won the wildcard game I guess? Cool
    • I really don't like Kami lol. Maybe it's just me, but anytime I was in Voxx's shoes and spent that much time trying to convince me someone's probably just a shit townie, they were wolf.
    • lol time zones are going to split this game in like, half.
    • Halima's probably going to have a hard time understanding Kami. I'm not ESL, but when I played my first MU game, I had a huge learning curve of slang to get past, and people who post like Kami does were the worst to chew through.
    • ugh, kill Kami so I don't have to read her posts anymore kthnxbai ;P
    • Formal Shorts moves to LAL, good for him
    • ...did Maciej forget about this game starting too? or (epileptic trees) is he pretending to as a gambit to steer clear of a possibly disastrous pile-on day 1? He is going into this game with his reputation more well known now...
    • anyone else getting a w/w vibe from Ryker/Kami?
    • also Yeti is coming off real bad too
    • "his playstyle is designed to force you to put up with suboptimal town play so that the scum game is incredibly hard to pin down." that's a great description of Kami
    • I don't know if I like the style of "ol you're coming off real scummy when you do X Y and Z but not the scummiest person on my list but I'll be watching you". It gives them a chance to change their behavior and earn their way back on your townread list. Talk about the people you want lynched today, you know?

  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    @yamikuronue How did Yraelz get in?

    Wildcard slot. He was second-best in Maciej's game and won the wildcard game.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @raceprouk said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    the first page at least was little more than spam, random voting, and pure metagaming.

    Thats how they do on MU. I played a game over there recently. They know you need to talk about something, and the flavor's usually completely crap compared to ours, so they just shitpost until someone finds something useful to talk about.


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Voxx vs Kami

    V.O.X. vs Cammy?


  • SockDev

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    @raceprouk said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    the first page at least was little more than spam, random voting, and pure metagaming.

    Thats how they do on MU. I played a game over there recently. They know you need to talk about something, and the flavor's usually completely crap compared to ours, so they just shitpost until someone finds something useful to talk about.

    Stark contrast to us, where even a single post that isn't a super-detailed analysis of the minutiae of all players, the game itself, and everything tangentially related is an immediate scum tell 🙂

    There might be a small amount of hyperbole in this post.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @raceprouk I'm really not interested in dredging up old vendettas. Our meta died off for a reason, you know?


  • SockDev

    @yamikuronue Who said anything about vendettas? If I was being serious, I wouldn't have ended with a 🙂 emoji.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @raceprouk Hyperbole slanted toward being vindictive followed by a insencere emoji to soften the read... 100% woofing rn

    !vote @RaceProUK

    ;p


  • SockDev

    @yamikuronue Upboated for the sheer cheek 😆


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    the flavor's usually completely crap compared to ours

    I like the similarity of the championship game to the one we had with mods. Which with the game in game was a lot more complicated, but still.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla Yeah, but look at the quality of it. It's a good idea but fairly subpar in execution. Odds are good the EOD and death scenes will be similar. That's what I mean -- the flavor is so poorly written it's not all that fun to interact with, and the culture's learned to just ignore it altogether, so it never gets better.


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    @yamikuronue I imagine that in a place like that the volume overwhelms the drive to keep the flavor going and most people end up ignoring it anyways.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    @yamikuronue I imagine that in a place like that the volume overwhelms the drive to keep the flavor going and most people end up ignoring it anyways.

    I would really prefer a place with skilled players who posted more lengthy, RP-flavored posts. Which is why I wanted to grow our skill level here so badly.

    I'd join a RP forum with Mafia but... the one I was looking at turned out to be full of teenagers and it just felt weird and also they weren't very good either.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    There's our guy!


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    I would really prefer a place with skilled players who posted more lengthy, RP-flavored posts.

    The keyword there being "skilled". It's very difficult to get the balance right between RP and actual gaming in Mafia. The nature of the game makes RP a hindrance to scumhunting. And yes, skilled players will be able to get it right more often than not, but to get to that level takes some time, and players who are at that level are few and far between.

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Which is why I wanted to grow our skill level here so badly.

    While I agree that we should push for this, we should be realistic that not a lot of players will be able to get to that point


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @vault_dweller said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    The nature of the game makes RP a hindrance to scumhunting

    I cannot disagree more. You don't want to go like, all-out reinvent yourself, but incorporating flavor int your posts makes the game way more enjoyable.


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    Ugh...4 pages down...


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    The "Explain how you play differently as town and scum," demands are...interesting.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    The "Explain how you play differently as town and scum," demands are...interesting.

    It's something you'd have to lie about as scum. So it's an opportunity to catch you in a lie as scum. And it's something you can crowdsource the truth detection of. So it's really hard to answer as scum.

    At least, I hope that's why it's such common meta, and not "iunno do my job for me" lol


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    @yamikuronue Right. It's interesting to me because I'd be working to keep my play without any pattern as much as possible. It's certainly something I consciously do when I play poker, for instance.

    Obviously mafia play is more complicated than that and on a forum game you don't have all the non-verbal stuff to throw around.


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    I want to see kami lynched just for how many times she's posted something with "ur" in it.


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  • mod

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    I mostly play games with 2 week+ day phases.

    That's not playing, it's masochism.

    How do you remember what you're doing with games that long?


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    I had read everything yesterday afternoon. Firing up my bookmark and I have...14 pages to read? undefined

    I'm going to search for votes and ignore the deluge of text.


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    undefined

    0_1504092964202_cd0bf052-11da-4f3a-921e-72dea60214a1-image.png


  • SockDev


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Looking at the way Yraelz reads Voxx, it seems like Voxx is Too Townie To Be Town... he runs down all the obvious Town tells right out the gate. He starts laying this narrative of "I can't read Kami" right away, he calls people town for suspecting him, he throws a big frustration tantrum that'll feel town.. all in the beginning of day 1. Too much too soon. Smells off.

    Maciej said:

    Uh, I'd say [using a town block] didn't go too well G4. I still don't really get this idea - it's pretty much asking to end up with tunnel vision with respect to people being town.

    me fucking neither man, me fucking neither.

    Yraelz said:

    (2) You spent a lot of D3+D4 on g4 telling me that I am too much tunneling and confirmation bias. Were those things you believed?

    YES because you WERE and he was woofy gloating lol


    Let's talk about Maciej's meta.

    Yraelz said

    That's obviously not a good a tell, so what do I look for to differentiate scum!Macie from town!Macie?

    Maciej said

    Hm. I'd like to say "you can't", but that's probably not true.

    I think as scum I'm more likely to be deflecting attention from someone, and pursuing cases that already have some backing. So I definitely play safer as scum. As town I care much less about showing up in town blocs as long as people I want lynched get lynched.

    My volume as scum tends to be lower too, but by this site's standards it would be pretty low either way.

    What do we think? I don't know that his volume drops as town. But we also don't know if he's town or scum. Is he lying?

    dLGN asks:

    would you post this as a wolf considering that's more or less exactly what you've done so far?

    I'd say his play is definitely different so far this game than the qualifier, but it's early on day 1 and he was playing catchup from the start. So that might be it. He also keeps saying the championship is the time to break meta, which makes me think he might be trying to break his meta a bit if he's scum.

    But this makes me think he might be town:

    I know I've made mistakes and slipped up - but you glossed over quite a few of them because I was so overwhelmingly town to you.

    And as town, I'm definitely taking issue with people trusting me too much, or too early without following it up with new arguments. Both as a scumhunting tool (scum buddies up to town readily) and because it's not a good play to trust someone without a good reason.

    He's the master at being "helpful" as scum. This reads like real help. What do you guys think?

    Voxx has an interesting take:

    I kind of vaguely town read all of Formal/Macie/Jamie just for the fact that they were super town read as scum winning their qualifiers but aren't really standing out as being townie here or making any attempt to do so.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    I'm going to search for votes and ignore the deluge of text.

    That's probably a good idea for D1. it should be easier to keep up once the inital kerfluffle dies down. I've started pulling out quotes of what I'm replying to for ya instead


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    He's the master at being "helpful" as scum. This reads like real help. What do you guys think?

    He has a dozen posts so far. Lots of others have an order of magnitude more. It all seems too early and so much noise. I guess it's good for him that there are a few others with similar amounts of activity, so he's less likely to be lynched for that, and the stuff he has posted has been pretty substantive.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla Yeah. Yraelz is pointing out the same thing at the point I'm at:

    All of this to say, we should prod Macie's activity as much as possible. I don't think he "skated by" in g4, but I do think he was allowed to play at a pace where he could deliberate and make the best answers.

    I think day 1 is just going to suck for him. He needs time to digest and think through things, but it'll be easier to do that overnight and come out swinging day 2.

    I think the only way people are going to understand him if he's town is to read his town and scum games on here. They're so short compared to their usual expectations I'm sure they can blow right through them lol.

    Dels how do you feel about Macie and Dixie?

    The Maciej/Dixie line?

    random thought: they keep talking about hydra games, maybe the next time I play I should do one of those. It gives you a confirmed partner if youre town who knows the meta better. I was a mason in my first one, it worked out well for me.

    300+ yeah. Qualifier game 10 was my 300th exactly, but played a couple since. Never been mislynched. 75%+ win rate.

    The more Voxx says this, the less I believe him. He already admitted to playing under alts.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Note, in case you miss it:

    Nachomamma8 has subbed in for deoxygenated.

    Interesting... The most suspected player subs. Wonder what to make of that. With 13 posts they're not being forced out due to inactivity, so they probably requested it.


  • SockDev

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Note, in case you miss it:

    Nachomamma8 has subbed in for deoxygenated.

    Interesting... The most suspected player subs. Wonder what to make of that. With 13 posts they're not being forced out due to inactivity, so they probably requested it.

    Possible ragequit?


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @raceprouk I would hope not, in the championship, but anything's possible. Maybe overwhelmed. Maybe life happened.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Maciej says:

    Two posts from AA that actually do concern me are 946 (I feel like this kind of "oh well, just lynch me" post comes from scum more often than from town), and 1080 is needlessly defensive towards what's pretty much a trollpost from Kami. But overall I'm leaning town on him.

    This to me smells town.

    Yraelz' town block is beginning with Formal Shorts. FS defends this with:

    You say auto clearing, but have you seen his town block before? He doesn't keep members auto cleared, he just ignores them for a while. If I act scummy, I'll be removed. (Spoiler, I won't be)

    But honestly, we all saw his treatment of Maciej. Being in the town block seemed to make it harder for Yraelz to reconsider Maciej's treatment later on in the game. So does this mean FS is wolfy? Stay tuned.

    Halima has FS and Maciej both on the scum lean. Is Halima picking up on something everyone else is missing? Or bad at reading people? ISO FS if you have some time, he hasn't posted a lot.


    Maciej comes in with some answers to some questions:

    I feel like keeping your arguments to yourself isn't pro-town. I'll need to reevaluate dLGN because it might just be a playstyle thing, but I don't like it - if you put a non-random (which dLGN insists it is) vote in, it's implied that you want the town to follow it.

    I summed it up as obvious scumming being NAI or a slight scum read. Even in a newbie game I'd be reluctant to lynch obvious scum since that implies that either the entire scum team is bad, or that they want the obvscum to by lynched, or that they're actually a townie.

    I feel like a scum slip-up carries much more weight than unprovoked scumminess, especially with good players.

    I simply haven't had time to pursue a case yet, I'm mostly catching up, getting a feel for the new crowd and answering questions. I don't think I'll even have a proper case today, it's still D1.


    Formal Shorts either misunderstands or "misunderstands" him:

    @Maciejasjmj you say you would avoid lynching scum, even in a newbie game. In my opinion if we let scum get away with scummy things because they're obvious, that's just an invitation for scum to do those scummy things and get away with it.

    But he also keeps doing cryptic crap like

    I also think you're lying to the thread yeti. Can you guess about what? (Not alignment)


    And I'm caught up! Ask me anything.


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Note, in case you miss it:

    Ah! I did notice that new name but assumed I'd just forgotten about it. That makes sense, then.


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Maciej says:

    Maciej comes in with some answers to some questions:
    "I feel like keeping your arguments to yourself isn't pro-town. I'll need to reevaluate dLGN because it might just be a playstyle thing, but I don't like it - if you put a non-random (which dLGN insists it is) vote in, it's implied that you want the town to follow it."

    "I summed it up as obvious scumming being NAI or a slight scum read. Even in a newbie game I'd be reluctant to lynch obvious scum since that implies that either the entire scum team is bad, or that they want the obvscum to by lynched, or that they're actually a townie."

    I feel like a scum slip-up carries much more weight than unprovoked scumminess, especially with good players.


    Formal Shorts either misunderstands or "misunderstands" him:

    @Maciejasjmj you say you would avoid lynching scum, even in a newbie game. In my opinion if we let scum get away with scummy things because they're obvious, that's just an invitation for scum to do those scummy things and get away with it.

    I saw this and wondered about it, but it makes more sense going back and reading @Maciejasjmj's post. I really dislike that other than quoting there doesn't seem to be a way to trace a reply back to the post it's replying to. Makes me want to strangle the people who never put a quote in.

    @Maciejasjmj's post there is definitely dead on for games around here but I think part of that is...what actually is obviously scummy play? I think it's very difficult to say especiallyon day 1, when people are doing stuff to try to stir the pot or maybe just having fun.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    .what actually is obviously scummy play?

    • Lying
    • Knowing too much about the game mechanics
    • Acting in concert with another person or small group without openly coordinating it
    • Contributing only flavor posts with no substance
    • Voting for unknown or poorly explained reasons

    Those are all smells that don't really come from messing around or being silly, except for the last one.


  • :belt_onion:

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    • Voting for unknown or poorly explained reasons

    Excluding RVS, of course. (Which doesn't really exist here as I remember learning quite quickly in Reverse Mafia. 😛 )


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @heterodox said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    • Voting for unknown or poorly explained reasons

    Excluding RVS, of course. (Which doesn't really exist here as I remember learning quite quickly in Reverse Mafia. 😛 )

    Right, that too. Basically only the very least item on my list applies.

    I think keeping secrets from Town is a good one too. It makes sense to keep secrets from someone you suspect for a few minutes while you suss out their loyalties, but you need to explain sooner than later. I hate the way MU does deadlines, where there's truthbombs and craziness and CFDs. It makes it so easy for scum to "whoops" end up voting for town. You should know what you want long before deadline.


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    Those are all smells that don't really come from messing around or being silly, except for the last one.

    Right, but I'm focusing on Day 1. Maybe that wasn't @Maciejasjmj's focus. But with that in mind:

    On Day 1, how do you detect a lie? What is there but flavor and chatting? The only other thing is voting for unknown or poorly explained reasons, which is about the only sort of vote possible on Day 1.

    Now, the game mechanics thing would definitely be a smell, but for this sort of vanilla game among experienced players, unlikely to be an issue. In our Calvinball games, of course, that's a whole 'nother story.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    for this sort of vanilla game

    This is what they call "TMI", and is a well-known slip. In a vanilla game, the only TMI you can slip up on is who is town for sure.

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    which is about the only sort of vote possible on Day 1.

    I strongly disagree. Compare the RVS with the votes that come along with explanations. If you explain your reasoning, people can make judgements about you. If you refuse to give a reason, it smells scummy, like you're afraid of scrutiny.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Maciej elaborates further on his position:

    I put much more weight towards scummy slips of people who otherwise act null/town, towards people starting to act scummy in situations where there's something at stake (eg. one of their scummates is getting roasted) or towards starting to act scummy under pressure.
    I put less weight towards unprovoked scummy behavior that's consistent over the game, or even over the metagame.
    That's not to say it's a town read, and I've accentuated it - I just don't think it's as simple as "player X acts more scummy than player Y, therefore player X is more likely scum".
    General scumminess is just not a conclusive or strong read to me in general. It's still a scum read, but one that I feel needs more backing.


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    @yamikuronue said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    @boomzilla said in Mafia Championship: Final Round:

    which is about the only sort of vote possible on Day 1.

    I strongly disagree. Compare the RVS with the votes that come along with explanations. If you explain your reasoning, people can make judgements about you. If you refuse to give a reason, it smells scummy, like you're afraid of scrutiny.

    Yeah, I guess towards the end of day 1 there's maybe more to go on. If you're voting to try to put pressure on someone then giving a reason defeats the purpose, because you're trying to provoke the person into giving a reason. Or maybe provoke others to jump on a wagon without reason, which would smell scummy.

    The most interesting player IMO is kami. Some crazy voting and super sure about who is scum. Very short posts, very abrasive.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @boomzilla Interesting != good though. Kami likes to yell at people for "not solving" while at the same time, doing as little solving as possible.


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