Bossiness



  • It seems to me that businesses bossing their customers around is getting worse, though it could just be that I'm getting more crotchety. I was in a grocery store (part of a chain) today, and I was bossed at least half-a-dozen times before I managed to get out the door. Stuff like they have a credit card machine, and they would tell me what to do even though the instructions are in plain English on the screen. That could be part of the problem; I live in an area with at least 50% immigrants. But you would think that even if a person was illiterate (at least in English), that they would be able to figure out what to do after a couple of purchases. If it was just one day or one establishment, that would be one thing. But it seems to be quite frequent and widespread, at least in my area.

    I see two major possibilities:

    • Everyone gets bossed around a lot, but no one else notices or cares;

    • I'm the only one who gets bossed around, so either I must look especially stupid, or they've figured out that I don't like it, so there's a conspiracy to boss me around personally.

    So I guess my questions are:

    • Do you get bossed around a lot, especially in businesses where you are a customer?
    • Do you or would you notice or care?
    • Anything else that's relevant?

  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    Do you get bossed around a lot, especially in businesses where you are a customer?

    Not that I've noticed.

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    Do you or would you notice or care?

    Yes. I don't like that sort of intrusiveness unless I've asked for the help.

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    Anything else that's relevant?

    It might depend on where you are? I'm in rural South-Eastern US, for example.


  • :belt_onion:

    My experience has been the exact opposite. Nobody tells you anything. You're just expected to somehow know what to do, through some sort of telepathy or something. If you ask someone a question . . . . well, good luck with that.



  • @el_heffe said in Bossiness:

    My experience has been the exact opposite. Nobody tells you anything. You're just expected to somehow know what to do, through some sort of telepathy or something. If you ask someone a question . . . . well, good luck with that.

    Yes, I've encountered that as well, but less frequently. A well-placed sign would have done the trick, however. In one place, on the other hand, the sign directly contradicted the custom. There was a sign to the effect of "Order Here", but the regulars knew that you were actually supposed to order in a different place. So I was left standing there for several minutes until it became apparent.



  • @chozang You might consider defining "boss around". Being someone telling you how to use their credit card machine doesn't strike me as something that'd qualify.



  • @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @chozang You might consider defining "boss around". Being someone telling you how to use their credit card machine doesn't strike me as something that'd qualify.

    I think that establishes you in the "don't care" camp. (Perhaps most people are, I don't know.) Yes, I consider someone telling me what to do while I'm reading the screen as bossing me around. I just find it baffling as to why anyone would do that.



  • @chozang I guess everybody's bossing you around all the time forever. You should react to this by yelling at then or otherwise being a dick to them, obvs.

    Per your specific example: let's just all acknowledge that credit card readers have utterly shitty usability and most of them haven't been QAed at all. (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?)



  • @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @chozang I guess everybody's bossing you around all the time forever. You should react to this by yelling at then or otherwise being a dick to them, obvs.

    Per your specific example: let's just all acknowledge that credit card readers have utterly shitty usability and most of them haven't been QAed at all. (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?)

    I would agree that at least one of the parties is being a dick. There are always different opinions on this sort of thing. Sort of like how some people think that blakeyrat is a dick, but at least one person doesn't.

    In the scenario given, it would be defensible. The cashier would understand that that particular thing was broken, and so needed special instructions. I am not talking about that kind of scenario. I would hope that such a problem would get fixed, however. A yellow sticky with that information would be much more efficient, however.



  • @chozang said in Bossiness:

    A yellow sticky with that information would be much more efficient, however.

    Don't you think the clerk who deals with 300 customers a day have a better idea of what's more efficient than the customer who only shops there once a week? I mean, the clerk's job is to be efficient.


  • SockDev

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    Never. But then we have both Chip & PIN and contactless payment: no-one's had to sign a card payment off for well over a decade. Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century ;)



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century

    Says RaceProUK while bowing before a queen.


  • SockDev

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century

    Says RaceProUK while bowing before a queen.

    I've never bowed before a queen: I prefer tomboys :P


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @chozang You might consider defining "boss around". Being someone telling you how to use their credit card machine doesn't strike me as something that'd qualify.

    I think that establishes you in the "don't care" camp. (Perhaps most people are, I don't know.) Yes, I consider someone telling me what to do while I'm reading the screen as bossing me around. I just find it baffling as to why anyone would do that.

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @chozang I guess everybody's bossing you around all the time forever. You should react to this by yelling at then or otherwise being a dick to them, obvs.

    Per your specific example: let's just all acknowledge that credit card readers have utterly shitty usability and most of them haven't been QAed at all. (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?)

    Huh, okay, I think I misunderstood the question. For some reason I thought you were talking about the self-checkout machines. If it's the credit card reader at a regular checkout line, then yeah, they do say that. Mostly because of the recent switch from slide/swipe to insert, and also because the machines aren't always blindingly obvious about where the card goes.

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century

    Says RaceProUK while bowing before a queen.

    I've never bowed before a queen

    Not even this one?
    0_1503361275973_Queen.jpg


  • SockDev

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century

    Says RaceProUK while bowing before a queen.

    I've never bowed before a queen

    Not even this one?
    0_1503361275973_Queen.jpg

    I've not had the good fortune to meet them, sadly :crying_cat_face:



  • @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    Intentionally or unintentionally?



  • @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    Intentionally or unintentionally?

    Both.


  • SockDev

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    You mean you deliberately waste not just your time, but the cashier's time, and the time of all the customers waiting for you to finish?



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    You mean you deliberately waste not just your time, but the cashier's time, and the time of all the customers waiting for you to finish?

    I put the blame on the bossy person. More precisely, their boss.


  • SockDev

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    You mean you deliberately waste not just your time, but the cashier's time, and the time of all the customers waiting for you to finish?

    I put the blame on the bossy person. More precisely, their boss.

    In other words, you act like a dick on purpose, and blame anyone but yourself.



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:
    and blame anyone but yourself.

    Not anyone, just the bossy person, as it should be. And the description you used applies not to me, but to the bossy person.



  • @chozang said in Bossiness:

    I think that establishes you in the "don't care" camp. (Perhaps most people are, I don't know.) Yes, I consider someone telling me what to do while I'm reading the screen as bossing me around. I just find it baffling as to why anyone would do that.

    Ah, now I understand what you're talking about; I think your OP may have been a bit confusing. Yes, I've encountered that though I'd not call it "bossiness" so much as "excessive solicitousness" or some such. "Go ahead and insert your card," Yes, I was just pulling it out of my wallet. "Hit Enter to confirm the amount," Yes... "Now go ahead and sign," You can see me reaching for the pen, can't you?! I don't need your permission for these operations!

    I don't think it's done with any sort of ill intent, though. Most often I think it comes from employees who were just trained on the operation of the terminals and are just echoing their training. Once they've been stared down a few times they tend to mellow out a bit.


  • SockDev

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    Not anyone, just the bossy person, as it should be.

    I'm sorry, but I cannot take anyone seriously when they freely admit they'll deliberately act like a cock just to spite a person they've never met, inconveniencing numerous others in the process.



  • @heterodox that, or they're like many cashiers I've seen who got in that habit due to dealing with old people (who can be slow to adapt to new things) who have to be guided on every step. Maybe because I'm in Florida (which has meth, alligators, and old people as the three most common things), but :man_shrugging:



  • @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    self-checkout machines

    "Please - scan your items  - and put them in the bag - one by one"

    Gee, you think? I just scanned my frequent buyer card. You know I've done this literally hundreds of times before.

    Scans item

    (Without a moment's pause)

    "Please - put your item - in the bag"

    Okay! Give me time, geeze!
    Btw, there's no actual bag in the weight sensor. There hasn't been any for a few years now.

    Selects payment in cash

    "Please - insert coins - before bank notes"

    Please - shut up.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @zecc said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    self-checkout machines

    "Please - scan your items  - and put them in the bag - one by one"

    Gee, you think? I just scanned my frequent buyer card. You know I've done this literally hundreds of times before.

    Scans item

    (Without a moment's pause)

    "Please - put your item - in the bag"

    Okay! Give me time, geeze!
    Btw, there's no actual bag in the weight sensor. There hasn't been any for a few years now.

    Selects payment in cash

    "Please - insert coins - before bank notes"

    Please - shut up.

    Our local grocery store has talking ones (that say aloud everything you're purchasing), but they also have a volume control. I always mute it first thing.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @heterodox said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    I think that establishes you in the "don't care" camp. (Perhaps most people are, I don't know.) Yes, I consider someone telling me what to do while I'm reading the screen as bossing me around. I just find it baffling as to why anyone would do that.

    Ah, now I understand what you're talking about; I think your OP may have been a bit confusing. Yes, I've encountered that though I'd not call it "bossiness" so much as "excessive solicitousness" or some such. "Go ahead and insert your card," Yes, I was just pulling it out of my wallet. "Hit Enter to confirm the amount," Yes... "Now go ahead and sign," You can see me reaching for the pen, can't you?! I don't need your permission for these operations!

    I don't think it's done with any sort of ill intent, though. Most often I think it comes from employees who were just trained on the operation of the terminals and are just echoing their training. Once they've been stared down a few times they tend to mellow out a bit.

    Also, with the (relatively) recent standardization of chip cards, you're never 100% sure if they'll take chip or not. And if you do it wrong, you either get "Oh, yea, the chip reader doesn't work, sorry" from the cashier or "[URNT] please insert card below" from the reader. It's easier to head that off by giving some (polite) directions.




  • kills Dumbledore

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    None becaue I haven't had to sign for a purchase in like 15 years


  • SockDev

    @ben_lubar pretty sure the Commander hasn't bowed or curtsied to her. And she was super condescending in that episode. "It can get very complicated. You? You just relentlessly smash things until they're no longer at odds with you."

    Yeah because taking down two dragons was just a case of smashing them.



  • @chozang said in Bossiness:

    Yes, I consider someone telling me what to do while I'm reading the screen as bossing me around. I just find it baffling as to why anyone would do that.

    No doubt they've experienced people who are doing something that looks very much like you did, except they stood there for quite a while without figuring it out. That sort of thing can be very frustrating, so you develop of spiel to prevent it from happening. After a bit it's super automatic and you barely notice you're doing it.



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    Never. But then we have both Chip & PIN and contactless payment: no-one's had to sign a card payment off for well over a decade. Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century ;)

    Ugh. You have a backwards idea of progress. Fuck that shit. Fuck it with a the rusty goddamned knife that @morbiuswilters uses to remove kidneys. I'd rather have to suffer Windows Fucking Updates than that bullshit.



  • @jaloopa said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    None becaue I haven't had to sign for a purchase in like 15 years

    Sucker.


  • SockDev

    @boomzilla said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    Never. But then we have both Chip & PIN and contactless payment: no-one's had to sign a card payment off for well over a decade. Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century ;)

    Ugh. You have a backwards idea of progress. Fuck that shit. Fuck it with a the rusty goddamned knife that @morbiuswilters uses to remove kidneys. I'd rather have to suffer Windows Fucking Updates than that bullshit.

    It truly is a hellish experience to hold a card still for two seconds.

    Wait, no, it's the other thing :P



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @boomzilla said in Bossiness:

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    (How many times have you been told to "sign below" when the signature spot on the pressure-sensitive screen is above?

    Never. But then we have both Chip & PIN and contactless payment: no-one's had to sign a card payment off for well over a decade. Maybe it's time the US dragged itself into the 21st century ;)

    Ugh. You have a backwards idea of progress. Fuck that shit. Fuck it with a the rusty goddamned knife that @morbiuswilters uses to remove kidneys. I'd rather have to suffer Windows Fucking Updates than that bullshit.

    It truly is a hellish experience to hold a card still for two seconds.

    Wait, no, it's the other thing :P

    Yes, exactly! It's the PIN that's the hellish part. Though all things being equal I'd rather not have RFID in my cards.


  • SockDev

    @boomzilla said in Bossiness:

    It's the PIN that's the hellish part.

    Contactless doesn't require a PIN though (it's also limited to £30 or less).



  • @boomzilla
    Remembering 4 digits is too much effort? Debet card, credit card, fuel card, electronic ID, meal voucher card, ...



  • @luhmann said in Bossiness:

    @boomzilla
    Remembering 4 digits is too much effort? Debet card, credit card, fuel card, electronic ID, meal voucher card, ...

    I'll just direct you to @morbiuswilters' knife.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    Not even this one?
    0_1503361275973_Queen.jpg

    *Especially* not that one! :trolleybus:


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    Contactless doesn't require a PIN though (it's also limited to £30 or less).

    Considering that my weekly grocery shopping--just for myself--generally comes out a bit north of $30, that doesn't seem like it's a very big advantage. (Yes, yes, I know, :pendant: :pendant:, £ != $, etc. Even so, you get the point.)



  • @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    Per your specific example: let's just all acknowledge that credit card readers have utterly shitty usability and most of them haven't been QAed at all.

    No bank I know would release a version for it's main credit reader products without it being approved by QA. (there are less used products where the real WTF happens).

    I guess the signature thing you said probably was pointed out by a tester and CLOSED_WONT_FIX


  • :belt_onion:

    @wharrgarbl said in Bossiness:

    without it being approved by QA

    he probably meant more along the lines of UAT anyway.

    :pendant:



  • @blakeyrat said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    A yellow sticky with that information would be much more efficient, however.

    Don't you think the clerk who deals with 300 customers a day have a better idea of what's more efficient than the customer who only shops there once a week? I mean, the clerk's job is to be efficient.

    This.

    Because each of these machines are a little different at different stores I get a little flustered with each new UI.

    I'm sure the clerks see that a lot.

    It is also my experience, as a programmer and elsewhere, that most people don't read messages.

    Our architect got the message on the app that is username or password was incorrect. He email the entire team including boss*2 complaining about it.

    Ultimately, due to our password expiration policies his password expired. He would have gotten alerts indicating he was due to change his password for at least a week prior to it expiring.



  • @raceprouk said in Bossiness:

    @chozang said in Bossiness:

    @dreikin said in Bossiness:

    I'm pretty sure the cashiers do that just to speed things up - it's quicker to just say it than wait for the person to parse the screen.

    I always slow down when someone tells me to do something I'm already in the process of doing.

    You mean you deliberately waste not just your time, but the cashier's time, and the time of all the customers waiting for you to finish?

    Because I hate to waste time, mine or otherwise is why I get flustered.

    I get stressed in bank like lines worried I won't react quickly enough or hear when the teller/cashier says "next".

    I have issues.


  • And then the murders began.

    @karla said in Bossiness:

    Our architect got the message on the app that is username or password was incorrect. He email the entire team including boss*2 complaining about it.

    Ultimately, due to our password expiration policies his password expired. He would have gotten alerts indicating he was due to change his password for at least a week prior to it expiring.

    If it truly just said the password was "incorrect", and not "incorrect or expired" - well, then he's right, that's a bug. My first thought on getting that message isn't going to be "oh, my password expired", it's going to be "oh, my password manager's sync is being flaky again". And then "no, it's working, :wtf: website".

    (Yes, you did mention expiration reminder alerts, but without knowing how they're delivered I"m not willing to admit that's sufficient for him to connect the two.)



  • @unperverted-vixen said in Bossiness:

    @karla said in Bossiness:

    Our architect got the message on the app that is username or password was incorrect. He email the entire team including boss*2 complaining about it.

    Ultimately, due to our password expiration policies his password expired. He would have gotten alerts indicating he was due to change his password for at least a week prior to it expiring.

    If it truly just said the password was "incorrect", and not "incorrect or expired" - well, then he's right, that's a bug.

    General security practices recommend not leaking specifics.

    We used active directory to authenticate. I am unaware of how to determine programmatically that the password is expired.

    My first thought on getting that message isn't going to be "oh, my password expired", it's going to be "oh, my password manager's sync is being flaky again". And then "no, it's working, :wtf: website".

    All internal apps use active directory for authentication so he would get the same response on every internal app he attempted to log into.

    (Yes, you did mention expiration reminder alerts, but without knowing how they're delivered I"m not willing to admit that's sufficient for him to connect the two.)

    Alerts are both by email and when he logs into his computer.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @karla said in Bossiness:

    General security practices recommend not leaking specifics.

    True, but at that point the user has verified they know the (formerly) correct password, so the leak isn't as egregious.


  • And then the murders began.

    @karla said in Bossiness:

    General security practices recommend not leaking specifics.

    Amending that message to say "invalid or expired" still isn't leaking specifics, though.

    We used active directory to authenticate. I am unaware of how to determine programmatically that the password is expired.

    All internal apps use active directory for authentication so he would get the same response on every internal app he attempted to log into.

    Ah, I ass-umed you were doing your own auth, not AD. (We let IIS handle Windows auth for our internal apps instead of forcing users to reenter username/password. Which I think that would have the added benefit of letting them still access the site, at least until they lock their computer - at which point Windows will tell them their issue. I'll have to test that next time mine comes up for renewal...)

    You can see if the password's expired by querying and looking at the user vs. just saying "authenticate this username/password please", but that's way more trouble than it's worth in this case.

    Alerts are both by email and when he logs into his computer.

    Okay, then I blame him entirely. Sorry. :fox:



  • @sloosecannon said in Bossiness:

    @karla said in Bossiness:

    General security practices recommend not leaking specifics.

    True, but at that point the user has verified they know the (formerly) correct password, so the leak isn't as egregious.

    How does the application know that?


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