The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it



  • @darkmatter said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    I am disappoint son. no retort about the gender pay gap myth?

    Not in General.

    @darkmatter said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    HAVE YOU SEEN THROUGH MY TROLLING?! Or was the implied gender pay gap troll joke not implied hard enough?

    Just good threadcategory discipline. Now, if you'd posted it in the other google memo thread I'd have made a crack.


  • :belt_onion:

    @boomzilla damn you. i can't tell what category i'm in, this same thread is in EVERY CATEGORY.


  • :belt_onion:

    @darkmatter actually i will jeff myself (and change my original post to still be relevant but less trolley)



  • @mikehurley said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @karla said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @wharrgarbl said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @cartman82

    I was actually going to see if I could find this image.

    A long while ago I remember reading about a gender stereotype study that let little boys play with whatever. When most of the boys chose to play with dolls it almost always ended up becoming Sgt. Barbie or Barbie Slaughter type play.

    Having been a tomboy, I wasn't that into dolls. I had a few, but my brother and I would use them as additional characters along with the action figures (star wars, adventure people) and vehicles.

    I did always want an easy bake oven though. I had to use the real oven to cooks my little baby cakes.


  • BINNED

    @xaade said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    Biological differences determine expression, expression changes on the culture. They work in concert.

    I was just sitting on the sidelines here, but I'm popping in here and quoting this just to say FINALLY!

    You are correct, you can't separate biology from society because those two things are a part of the same feedback loop. Just focusing on one of those aspects will necessarily be faulty.

    I haven't had the time to properly read the text itself yet (I could speedread, but I'd love to follow references and such as well and I just don't have the time lately), but from what little I saw the author at least tried to present both of those factors, and the tone was decent throughout. Even if some of his statements are wrong, those are at least points worth of discussion.

    Fuck the journalist, and fuck freaking out about this. This piece seems worthy of discussion, not knee-jerk reactions and blanket statements.

    And this guy getting fired was an extra bullshit factor.



  • @mikehurley said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    When most of the boys chose to play with dolls it almost always ended up becoming Sgt. Barbie or Barbie Slaughter type play.

    And whatever toys the girls picked were used in social interaction situations.

    For example, a boy picked up a Barbie and played war.
    A girl picked up Megatron and Starscream and acted out the conversations they had at the Decepticon base.



  • @karla said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    I did always want an easy bake oven though.

    Don't worry. You didn't miss out.

    I spent more time helping my sister fit crap into the darn thing, which was designed to make it nearly impossible to reach inside.



  • The meat of the anecdote:

    ..., the reason I left is that I came into work one Monday morning and joined the guys at our work table, and one of them said “What did you do this weekend?”

    I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail.

    At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people. I liked the work. But I was never going to like it enough to blow a weekend doing more of it for free. Which meant that I was never going to be as good at that job as the guys around me.

    Much more in there and worth reading the whole thing, as her columns usually are.


  • BINNED

    Sundar Pichai Should Resign as Google’s C.E.O.

    The fourth actor is the media. The coverage of the memo has been atrocious.



  • @dse The Times said that!?



  • @magus It's an op-ed.



  • I think, fuck Twitter too. Either I'm following all the wrong people, or fuck knows what.

    But it kinda saddens me that all those people calling for a scientific discussion now also circle jerk about those torch marches like it's a real good thing and totally nothing to worry about.



  • Um, actually, they're called "Alphabet" now. 0/5



  • @boomzilla said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    Much more in there and worth reading the whole thing, as her columns usually are.

    I'm not one of those guys. I have met many of those guys. Have yet to meet a girl like that. Ever...

    I know... anecdotal evidence... but has anyone here met a girl like that?



  • @dse

    You know, I can't help but recall all of those times that Google pressed for more work visas from India, saying that there weren't Americans that qualify for the jobs.


  • BINNED

    @xaade well, there weren't. Because Americans don't want to pay taxes for education but Indians do.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @dse said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @xaade well, there weren't. Because Americans don't want to pay taxes for educationbe compelled to work for one company for below market wages with no mobility but Indians do.

    FTFH1Bs


  • BINNED

    @izzion that is illegal if they do, and should be prosecuted. AFAIK Google does not do that.



  • @izzion said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    FTFH1Bs

    One of the requirements of an H1B is that the immigrant be paid the same wage as a native worker.

    You've been reading too many Slashdot conspiracy theories.

    If you know for sure of a company breaking the law when it comes to paying H1B visa holders, report them. Because they're breaking the law. (My guess is: zero of those companies exist, it's just a Slashdot conspiracy theory.)



  • @magus said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @dse The Times said that!?

    @blakeyrat said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @magus It's an op-ed.

    One of Brooks' semi-annual moments of lucidity.



  • @xaade said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @dse

    You know, I can't help but recall all of those times that Google pressed for more work visas from India, saying that there weren't Americans that qualify for the jobs.

    A better question in light of the current controversy would be to ask how much caste diversity their H1B workers represent.



  • @boomzilla It's also "safe" since the initial reporting was done by one of those filthy criminal online news sources and not our upstanding defender-of-democracy print edition New York Times, God Bless Our Newspaper!


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @xaade said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @boomzilla said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    Much more in there and worth reading the whole thing, as her columns usually are.

    I'm not one of those guys. I have met many of those guys. Have yet to meet a girl like that. Ever...

    I know... anecdotal evidence... but has anyone here met a girl like that?

    Anecdatally: Nope.



  • @boomzilla said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people. I liked the work. But I was never going to like it enough to blow a weekend doing more of it for free. Which meant that I was never going to be as good at that job as the guys around me.

    Guess I'm screwed then. I'm usually out competing with my dog! I get away from work on weekends..


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @dcon said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    Guess I'm screwed then. I'm usually out competing with my dog! I get away from work on weekends..

    I wouldn't worry about it. It's actually very good for you to take a good break, whereas working all the time burns you out rapidly.



  • @blakeyrat in Poland, we do have such laws as well: a foreigner can't be paid less than a native would, with the same job requirements.* This, however, doesn't stop people for finding ways and all the little loopholes around this law so they can still pay less. They are moderately successful.

    I guess the US employers are not stupid and have their ways, too.


    • Explicitly no provision for paying less if less competent. We have a case of creeping socialism here.


  • What's even more fun.

    Suppose anti-Damore faction wins and promotes the status quo in some big way. The practices unearthed by the shitstorm become the explicit norm and officially nothing to be ashamed about. You either be very careful what you say to whom at work and in private, as everyone is encouraged to rat others for anti-diversity speeches. If anyone ever gets fired for a slip of their tongue, they are going to have mysterious job offer refusals elsewhere until they are forced to switch the profession towards the lowest paying and humiliating jobs. The next step is firing those who refuse to rat on their colleagues.

    Let me guess where I remember such stuff happening... Probably everywhere in the Eastern Bloc 30–40 years ago. The difference being that the Eastern Bloc countries had the regime more or less violently imposed on them, and the "progressive liberals" put this noose around their own necks (and around others' necks, as it happens) voluntarily and eagerly.

    Suppose pro-Damore faction wins and sets a precedent in a some big way. At-will employment is going to be outlawed, and any diversity policies become regulated, so that if a company says it is "diverse" and "inclusive", it must adhere to a definition thought up by some government schmucks, and those are going to be audited, and we kinda know where it goes: people are just going to invent new terms which would describe what they want but not be on the government's radar, the lawyers are going to get even more expensive, but the culture overall is going to stay the same.

    I'm a big proponent of freedom as extended as possible (without infringing on the freedom of others, of course). This also means a company can build itself a zoo for lunatics, label it "diverse", hire a bunch of mentally unstable deluded loonies, and call it a day. They are also perfectly free to fire everyone who doesn't fit the pattern, and especially someone who says, "what a phony kind of diversity this is you're doing!" While they can have that lunatic ghetto of theirs and squeeze profits out of it, it's totally their business, and whoever disagrees with their policy is perfectly free to find another job.

    Unless of course schmucks from HR play КГБ the Almighty, or SB, or StB, you name it — keeping blacklists across companies, and essentially denying the misfits their freedom to find another job.

    And this is where companies must be punched. It's just as ugly as those non-poaching agreements that made a fuss a few years ago (and where people were plainly denied their freedom to switch to a better job).



  • @xaade Nope... but I don't think software engineering should be exclusively for people without a life.



  • @dkf said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @dcon said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    Guess I'm screwed then. I'm usually out competing with my dog! I get away from work on weekends..

    I wouldn't worry about it. It's actually very good for you to take a good break, whereas working all the time burns you out rapidly.

    Which is exactly why I do!



  • @wft said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    I guess the US employers are not stupid and have their ways, too.

    Saying it's one thing. Now prove it.



  • @blakeyrat That's the thing! If it was easy enough for me, no doubt IRS would be after their asses.

    Small scale abuses, however, I think are quite possible. Like unpaid overtimes you know the employees will do, because they are not free to change the job as easily as locals are. To be fair, overtimes could be unpaid on all contracts, but the locals would get far less of them, if any.



  • @wft Lots of things are possible. It's still a conspiracy theory until it's proven.



  • @blakeyrat http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_us_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af

    Journalists are shit, I know. But these do cite some sources.



  • @magnusmaster said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    @xaade Nope... but I don't think software engineering should be exclusively for people without a life.

    Well, no, of course not.

    If we could establish enough evidence, the point would only be that women and men were different. That's it.

    I don't understand what's so bad about men and women being different.

    Different != inferior.

    And if you were a company that wanted to recruit women, wouldn't you want to be accurately knowledgeable about those differences so you could make changes to your workplace to encourage women to work there?

    Incentives work better than punishments. A quota is a punishment, but changing the work environment is an incentive.

    But it seems that all people hear is "different" -> "inferior" -> "wharrgarbl"



  • @blakeyrat said in The Google Memo and the terrible reporting of it:

    One of the requirements of an H1B is that the immigrant be paid the same wage as a native worker.

    Yeah, that's like saying, there's no vote fraud, so let's not check for it.

    All you have to do is change the position title to all junior devs.



  • @xaade and make wages so low that no local ever will want to work for them.


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