VAT fraud?
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@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
You'll sure be prevented from getting on military bases and many other federal installations though.
Expect to see a press release January 10th from the TSA saying the deadline for those listed states has been extended. Again.
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
So if I dump a whole bunch of rock and dirt into the ocean within the state's territorial waters to form my own island, I'll suddenly, without doing anything else, be liable for WA property taxes?
Yup, and whatever county your new island happens to be in. Don't take my word for it, take the state AG's!
Or if I move a floating island over the state, am I liable for WA property taxes?
Yup, and whatever county your floating island happens to be over.
Wouldn't I have to register either of those with the Land Office for Washington State before they can be assessed for taxes?
Nope. But if someone else registers a deed with the county clerk first, then the courts will recognize them as the legal owner, since their claim was recorded and yours was not.
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
Expect to see a press release January 10th from the TSA saying the deadline for those listed states has been extended. Again.
I don't see how that has any relation to my statement, but I'll keep an eye out, sure.
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@dragnslcr Although many (most?) property taxes are at the county level, and the entire State is part of a county (by definition). Sometimes cities have additional property taxes, but it's usually a county thing. Except when it's not...taxes are complicated.
In which case they can try seceding from the county, too.
I think I've mentioned before how the only two states that I've lived in only have property taxes at the city/town level, so I apologize for any times that I forget that other states have county-level property taxes.
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@dragnslcr Can't secede from a county. All land in a state is part of one county or another. Except for those weird places where (some) cities are administrative units with equivalent status to counties. Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are the only three such I can find.
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@dragnslcr Can't secede from a county. All land in a state is part of one county or another. Except for those weird places where (some) cities are administrative units with equivalent status to counties. Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are the only three such I can find.
Pretty sure Philadelphia counts, or at least most of it.
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@e4tmyl33t I only did a short google search. I thought that Philly was its own county (which is different than not being in a county at all). I may be wrong, though.
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@e4tmyl33t I only did a short google search. I thought that Philly was its own county (which is different than not being in a county at all). I may be wrong, though.
True, I suppose, though the two have been coterminous for over 150 years, so in effect it's basically the same thing
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@e4tmyl33t And I was able to locate this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_city_(United_States)
which seems to imply that there are 41 US cities classed as "independent".
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@e4tmyl33t I'll admit that I only looked at the blurb on google from that source. Video games on the second monitor are a
to extensive research =)
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@benjamin-hall I hear that.
To be fair, that list you had is accurate if you discount the entirety of Virginia, which most of us do just out of spite.
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@e4tmyl33t Bringing it around to the topic, Virginia is named after the Virgin (Mary), which is a religious reference. Theocracy! </so-not-serious>
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@e4tmyl33t Bringing it around to the topic, Virginia is named after the Virgin (Mary), which is a religious reference. Theocracy! </so-not-serious>
Rabble rabble! We demand that there be equal concession to the non-religious and that Virginia be evenly divided into two separate states, Virginia and Sciencia.
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@e4tmyl33t Bringing it around to the topic, Virginia is named after the Virgin (Mary), which is a religious reference. Theocracy! </so-not-serious>
Incorrect. It was named after Queen Elizabeth, the "Virgin Queen," by the initial explorers who discovered it, as a way of currying favor. (Probably because "Elizabethia" is a bit of a mouthful...)
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
Except for those weird places where (some) cities are administrative units with equivalent status to counties. Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are the only three such I can find.
In the United States, an independent city is a city that is not in the territory of any county or counties with exceptions noted below. Of the 41 independent U.S. cities,[1] 38 are in Virginia, whose state constitution makes them a special case. The three independent cities outside of Virginia are Baltimore, Maryland; St. Louis, Missouri; and Carson City, Nevada. The U.S. Census Bureau uses counties as its base unit for presentation of statistical information, and treats independent cities as county equivalents for those purposes. Baltimore, Maryland is the largest independent city in the United States.
Lots of 'em here in Virginia.
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@masonwheeler Hence the </not-so-serious> tag. I was just trying to channel the "triggered-by-anything-that-looks-like-religion" aura I was getting from @dse .
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@benjamin-hall dear elder, are you triggered by me getting triggered by you going to mission here? Did i forget to mention your prophet is the most obvious charlatan sleazebag that fooled scores on some ancient papirus he bought in a flee market, then hid them when he realized sooner or later someone will be able to read them for what they were: some merchant's bill of materials :--)
VAT fraud?
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@dragnslcr Can't secede from a county. All land in a state is part of one county or another. Except for those weird places where (some) cities are administrative units with equivalent status to counties. Baltimore, St. Louis, and Carson City are the only three such I can find.
They can still try. They'll have just as much success as they will trying to secede from their city.
I was going to suggest moving to Maine and buying some land in an Unorganized Territory (i.e. areas with no municipal government), but it turns out that the state does collect property taxes on land there.
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@dse A troll's a troll, no matter the thread. I enjoy mixing topics =)
And you'd have to go a long way to actually make me mad. I learned to have a thick skin from a master of the art of the verbal assassination. You're not even a challenge. Just a bigoted moron.
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@boomzilla said in VAT fraud?:
But...they're not saying that states have to upgrade their licenses, just that the Feds basically won't accept them any more.
I was surprised when I saw that sign - I thought we (CA) were on the SPANKSPANK list too.
I have a valid passport...
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
So if I dump a whole bunch of rock and dirt into the ocean within the state's territorial waters to form my own island, I'll suddenly, without doing anything else, be liable for WA property taxes?
I suspect you'll get in so much trouble with a whole bunch of other agencies well before you'll ever have to worry about property taxes!
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
The only existing examples of artificial islands I'm aware of are in Japan, China and Dubai.
Some parts of the Netherlands also count. And yes, I bet they pay land taxes there.
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@e4tmyl33t said in VAT fraud?:
@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
@e4tmyl33t Bringing it around to the topic, Virginia is named after the Virgin (Mary), which is a religious reference. Theocracy! </so-not-serious>
Rabble rabble! We demand that there be equal concession to the non-religious and that Virginia be evenly divided into two separate states, Virginia and Sciencia.
Shouldn't that be Virginia and Courtesania?
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@dkf I should have said since the Dubai artificial islands usually have expensive resort hotels on them, I've be very surprised if they do not pay the nominal tax-- considering all that money comes from oil, though, I'm not sure if anybody in Dubai pays tax. (Is it like Alaska, where the natural resources tax on companies basically "covers" all the individuals? I dunno.)
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@dkf said in VAT fraud?:
@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
The only existing examples of artificial islands I'm aware of are in Japan, China and Dubai.
Some parts of the Netherlands also count. And yes, I bet they pay land taxes there.
Just like usual, yes. There's a significant difference though - the IJsselmeerpolders were much cheaper to build (per square kilometre) than the usual Singapore/Dubai examples. Much of it is in use as farmland.
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
@dkf I should have said since the Dubai artificial islands usually have expensive resort hotels on them, I've be very surprised if they do not pay the nominal tax-- considering all that money comes from oil, though, I'm not sure if anybody in Dubai pays tax. (Is it like Alaska, where the natural resources tax on companies basically "covers" all the individuals? I dunno.)
Apparently, they seem to mostly structure the taxes that ordinary people pay as rents, with most of the real taxes being on oil and banking. And they're introducing VAT at the start of next year. (Look, Ma! I'm almost on topic!)
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@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
You'll sure be prevented from getting on military bases and many other federal installations though.
I stand corrected. Apparently in Washington State you can get an enhanced ID of some kind. The SPANKSPANK list at my local installation is American Samoa, Maine, Minnesota (enhanced IDs accepted), Missouri, Montana, and Washington (enhanced IDs accepted).
Lots of Ms there. Let's make a conspiracy theory out of THAT! And no, I have no explanation for the differences from the TSA list other than... government.
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@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
I stand corrected. Apparently in Washington State you can get an enhanced ID of some kind. The SPANKSPANK list at my local installation is American Samoa, Maine, Minnesota (enhanced IDs accepted), Missouri, Montana, and Washington (enhanced IDs accepted).
You can; the dispute is over re-issuing existing driver's licenses with the new TSA requirements. The official reason for the rejection is that the Feds refuse to pay the costs of that program, which is double-insulting in a State that feeds WAY more money into the Federal Government than we withdraw.
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
You can; the dispute is over re-issuing existing driver's licenses with the new TSA requirements. The official reason for the rejection is that the Feds refuse to pay the costs of that program, which is double-insulting in a State that feeds WAY more money into the Federal Government than we withdraw.
Ah, I see.
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
Property tax anywhere in the US is ultimately an optional tax. Property tax can only be assessed on commercial property, not private property, and the commercial classifications for real property are agricultural, industrial, and residential. (All land in the USA is allodial, which means it is absolutely owned by real individual people; it cannot be owned by legal-fictional "persons", like corporations, governments, or even banks.) US law forbids direct (on existing owned property) taxes, so indirect taxes (on transactions or on the use of services) form the basis for all US taxes.
And, let me guess, is the entity being taxed the ALL CAPS VERSION of your name that's printed on your birth certificate?
That sounds like some sovereign citizen BS.
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
@lolwhat said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 Yeah, uh, what @blakeyrat said. If property taxes were optional, I wouldn't be paying several thousand dollars a year simply because I own a house...
It's a bit of an involved process, including making sure all loans and liens are paid off and that the assigns back to the original land grant clearly devolve the land to you, but if you get land de-registered with the County Recorder (or equivalent) and/or reclassified as private property, the government cannot tax the land.
Ehh... if that works (and I'm not saying that it does) I bet then if your house caught on fire the fire department would show up and tell you "the river's that-a-ways" and leave.
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@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
Property tax anywhere in the US is ultimately an optional tax. Property tax can only be assessed on commercial property, not private property, and the commercial classifications for real property are agricultural, industrial, and residential. (All land in the USA is allodial, which means it is absolutely owned by real individual people; it cannot be owned by legal-fictional "persons", like corporations, governments, or even banks.) US law forbids direct (on existing owned property) taxes, so indirect taxes (on transactions or on the use of services) form the basis for all US taxes.
And, let me guess, is the entity being taxed the ALL CAPS VERSION of your name that's printed on your birth certificate?
That sounds like some sovereign citizen BS.
That's already been addressed, I think, but no, it's not a sovereign citizen thing, as far as I can tell.
@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
@lolwhat said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 Yeah, uh, what @blakeyrat said. If property taxes were optional, I wouldn't be paying several thousand dollars a year simply because I own a house...
It's a bit of an involved process, including making sure all loans and liens are paid off and that the assigns back to the original land grant clearly devolve the land to you, but if you get land de-registered with the County Recorder (or equivalent) and/or reclassified as private property, the government cannot tax the land.
Ehh... if that works (and I'm not saying that it does) I bet then if your house caught on fire the fire department would show up and tell you "the river's that-a-ways" and leave.
That would probably be one of the risks that I referred to later in this thread.
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
** Are there any states where citizens are charged a tax for simply owning something? Private property need not simply be land; it includes everything that is or can be owned by a real person. Are there taxes for simply owning jewelry? Computers? Cars?
Totally, yes. Vehicles and watercraft are one of the more commonly taxed types of personal property.
...probably mainly because they're already required to be licensed and registered. A tax on anything else would just be way too hard to try to keep track of and collect... trying to collect a tax on computers would be almost as dumb as trying to collect a tax on TVs (
).
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
You'll sure be prevented from getting on military bases and many other federal installations though.
Expect to see a press release January 10th from the TSA saying the deadline for those listed states has been extended. Again.
I'd actually rather see a release that stated in clear, plain language what specific requirement(s) each of the deficient states' IDs were deficient in.
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@dkf said in VAT fraud?:
@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
The only existing examples of artificial islands I'm aware of are in Japan, China and Dubai.
Some parts of the Netherlands also count. And yes, I bet they pay land taxes there.
Does any dry ground that's been artificially created from where the ocean would be count? Because a significant part of the country is below sea level.
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@dkf said in VAT fraud?:
Yes, but non-consumers can get repaid for the VAT they pay on business expenses.
Which is a difference from sales tax. Businesses pay sales/use tax on items they consume. They only avoid/reclaim sales/use tax on items they resell or manufacture into something they sell.
Businesses tend to report and pay use tax because those purchases get accounted as expenses against income tax. If they didn't report and pay the use tax their income tax return wouldn't survive a cursory audit.
Some individuals might not be scrupulous enough to track all their (non-tax-deductable) out-of-state purchases as needed to report and pay use tax as the law requires.
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@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
** Are there any states where citizens are charged a tax for simply owning something? Private property need not simply be land; it includes everything that is or can be owned by a real person. Are there taxes for simply owning jewelry? Computers? Cars?
Totally, yes. Vehicles and watercraft are one of the more commonly taxed types of personal property.
...probably mainly because they're already required to be licensed and registered. A tax on anything else would just be way too hard to try to keep track of and collect... trying to collect a tax on computers would be almost as dumb as trying to collect a tax on TVs (
).But no one is taxed for simply owning a vehicle. It can sit in their driveway (or lawn) or be used on their own land (/farm) without being registered. Driving it on public roads requires registration.
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
I stand corrected. Apparently in Washington State you can get an enhanced ID of some kind. The SPANKSPANK list at my local installation is American Samoa, Maine, Minnesota (enhanced IDs accepted), Missouri, Montana, and Washington (enhanced IDs accepted).
You can; the dispute is over re-issuing existing driver's licenses with the new TSA requirements. The official reason for the rejection is that the Feds refuse to pay the costs of that program, which is double-insulting in a State that feeds WAY more money into the Federal Government than we withdraw.
Minnesota gave in this year and we're all going to get new licenses starting next year. I fully expect to be charged for the service.
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
@heterodox said in VAT fraud?:
I stand corrected. Apparently in Washington State you can get an enhanced ID of some kind. The SPANKSPANK list at my local installation is American Samoa, Maine, Minnesota (enhanced IDs accepted), Missouri, Montana, and Washington (enhanced IDs accepted).
You can; the dispute is over re-issuing existing driver's licenses with the new TSA requirements. The official reason for the rejection is that the Feds refuse to pay the costs of that program, which is double-insulting in a State that feeds WAY more money into the Federal Government than we withdraw.
Well, according to what I could find, the reason their IDs are invalid is because they don't provide proof of legal residence in the US. I can understand why government institutions don't like that, and it shouldn't be much of a cost difference per ID to do that, especially when most other states do require that...
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@blakeyrat said in VAT fraud?:
I'm not sure if anybody in Dubai pays tax
http://www.livingindubai.org/dubai-taxation :
Dubai is largely a tax-free country with massive tax advantages for those who live and work here, but there are circumstances in which you will be required to pay taxation in some form. The UAE has been toying with the idea of introducing income tax in the country for a long time; in 2010 there were alarming headlines screaming about Dubai residents having to prepare to pay taxes but these turned out to be measures imposed by the Emirate of Dubai to collect fees from car registration, road toll and Emirates ID cards, Which is a form of taxation, but not really of any significance compared to individual earnings in the emirate.
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@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
But no one is taxed for simply owning a vehicle. It can sit in their driveway (or lawn) or be used on their own land (/farm) without being registered. Driving it on public roads requires registration.
Citation needed. AFAICT, such a vehicle is still "personal property", and therefore subject to taxation, in states that levy personal property taxes.
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@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
@djls45 said in VAT fraud?:
But no one is taxed for simply owning a vehicle. It can sit in their driveway (or lawn) or be used on their own land (/farm) without being registered. Driving it on public roads requires registration.
Citation needed. AFAICT, such a vehicle is still "personal property", and therefore subject to taxation, in states that levy personal property taxes.
For instance:
Vehicle Personal Property Tax Assessments
The Arlington County’s Office of the Commissioner of Revenue bases the annual tax assessments for motor vehicles garaged in Arlington County on the “Clean Loan Value" in the January [of the tax year] edition of the “J.D Power (formally NADA Guides)”, which is published every January.
The tax also applies to vehicles that:
- Do not display Virginia license plates (these vehicles may also be required to pay an annual fee)
- Are inoperable
- Are “temporarily absent” from Arlington (removed for a short period with the intent to return)
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@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
Does any dry ground that's been artificially created from where the ocean would be count?
Probably, but I picked out a part that is completely surrounded by water and which is, therefore, an island. For
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@djls45 there are two core claims that sound like utter "sovereign citizen" legal mumbo-jumbo:
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"residential property is commercial, and therefore isn't private property"
It's zoned residential when it's owned and sold commercially. Commercial property is any property that's purchased and either rented or sold for a profit (with or without improvements). Buying 100 acres and building subdivisions on it is a commercial property investment. Buying a house to rent out is a commercial property investment. Buying a house to live in is not. And yes, it's private property. -
"non-commercial private property cannot be taxed for ownership"
Utter rubbish. It can and it is.
If you take both those (false) claims and put them together, it sounds like there's some legal loophole whereby most (sheeple) end up getting taxed on their property because it's "commercial" when actually all you have to do is go down to the assessor's office and yell at a clerk for a few hours to get your property "seceded" from the city, county, and/or state. (As if.)
Basically, what you're describing has no legitimate legal grounds and you'd only get away with it if they don't think it's worth coming after you. It might work if you're a penniless hermit who lives out in the boonies and generally doesn't bother anyone unless the tax man tries to come to visit, but by and large they're probably going to have a problem with you "seceding" your land otherwise, since there's a reason for most of the city/county property laws and they can't have those laws just not applying to you because you're special. If you have neighbors, their property values and indeed even their safety will depend on you adhering to various different property maintenance codes.
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@anotherusername said in VAT fraud?:
If you take both those (false) claims and put them together, it sounds like there's some legal loophole whereby most (sheeple) end up getting taxed on their property because it's "commercial" when actually all you have to do is go down to the assessor's office and yell at a clerk for a few hours to get your property "seceded" from the city, county, and/or state. (As if.)
It reminds me of the argument that filing your first tax return is a contract with the state by which you gain the status of "taxpayer" and are obligated to continue to do so. And if you "break" that contract you don't have to continue to pay, as there's no mandate, just people who got suckered in to filing that first one.
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@benjamin-hall said in VAT fraud?:
Just a bigoted moron.
Let me know anytime and I do my to trigger you.
Independent city (United States) - Wikipedia
