The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on
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Setting up the wife's new computer and the first order of business is get rid of Windows 10 and install Windows 7 (thank goodness I started hoarding copies a while back). As previously discussed, ad nauseum, I would really like to move to a newer OS, but, I've already wasted way too much time trying to polish that turd.
Starting the installation, I get an error message:
A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing.
And it won't continue.Which really doesn't make much sense, since I'm installing from a USB thumb-drive. After mucking about for a while I decide it's time to resort to Googling.
It turns out that a lot of people have encountered this same problem and various other people have offered their suggestions on how to fix it, including one guy who made a YouTube video where he suggests, in some language only vaguely resembling English, that you should try wiggling the thumb drive a bit.
In all fairness, wiggling the thumb-drive works just as well as all the other solutions people offered.
Let's see what Microsoft says about this:
To resolve this issue, use one of the following methods, as appropriate for your situation:
Burn the installation DVD at a slower speed.
Use a better quality DVD to create the installation DVD.
Update the BIOS firmware for your DVD drive.
Use the Windows 7 USB/DVD Download tool to create a bootable USB flash drive, and then use the USB flash drive to install Windows.I eventually stumble upon the (apparently) only person in the universe who figured out what the problem really is: the Windows 7 installer doesn't have native support for USB 3.0, and for raisins not entirely clear, on computers with newer CPUs, you need a USB 3.0 driver - even if you try to install from a USB 2.0 port.
Now that I think about it, why are there separate ports for USB 2 and USB 3? Since USB 3 is backwards compatible with USB 2, why not just make them all USB 3? Maybe they save a fraction of a penny per unit using USB 2. Or maybe there's some retarded hardware out there that won't work on a USB 3 port. Who knows.
Anyway, I download the Intel USB 3.0 driver from Dell, make a new installation ISO with the driver in it and, HA HA FUCK YOU MICROSOFT, it works.
Another happy ending.
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Windows 7 USB/DVD Download tool
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Maybe they save a fraction of a penny per unit using USB 2
Why not lookup how much a USB3 Phy costs compared to a USB2 one. I can assure you its considerably more than "fractions of a penny".
Hell, its considerably more than "fractions of a dollar".Compare and contrast the TI parts: http://www.findchips.com/search/tusb1310a http://www.findchips.com/search/tusb1210
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@El_Heffe said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Starting the installation, I get an error message: A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing. And it won't continue.
Micro-Soft: our error messages are misleading by design ™
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@TimeBandit Before installing from USB was feasible, it likely made perfect sense. And it just hasn't been updated since.
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@Unperverted-Vixen said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Before installing Windows from USB was feasible, it likely made perfect sense. And it just hasn't been updated since.
FTFY.
Linux on the other hand...
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Linux on the other hand...
was about the same, because motherboards started supporting boot from USB at the same time regardless of the OS you wanted to install
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@hungrier Windows support came way later than BIOS.
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Don't really get all the windows 10 negativity.
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@xaade They went the wrong direction on a whole bunch of points.
Everyone was already sick of being pestered to reboot about updates. So instead of finding a way to fix it, they make the reboots mandatory.
People are becoming more and more security-conscious, so they load the new OS down with
spyware*ahem* "telemetry".People are getting fed up with advertising being shoved in their faces all over the Web, so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
And so on, and so forth. Windows 10 appears to be designed to irritate and insult the user in many ways, and further erode people's rights to control over their own property. Is it any wonder it's almost universally reviled?
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Everyone was already sick of being pestered to reboot about updates. So instead of finding a way to fix it, they make the reboots mandatory.
That's how you avoid security problems. It would be nice to update without rebooting, but then you'll have a virus that blocks the update.
Other OSes need to start being honest about their "hackers don't give a shit about us, or they use us and don't want to shit in their own backyard" privilege.
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
ahem "telemetry".
Doesn't really bother me. People give away everything personal on facebook then bitch if a company is secretly taking the data.
There was a case where I double checked which noun to use for someone, and ended up finding the transgender forum community they belonged to, with before and after pictures, and cross referenced that with their company contact info.
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
People are getting fed up with advertising being shoved in their faces all over the Web, so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
No repro.
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
further erode people's rights to control over their own property.
No repro.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
It would be nice to update without rebooting, but then you'll have a virus that blocks the update.
???
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
It would be nice to update without rebooting, but then you'll have a virus that blocks the update.
???
Long as the full OS is running, you can't trust an update actually went through.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Everyone was already sick of being pestered to reboot about updates. So instead of finding a way to fix it, they make the reboots mandatory.
That's how you avoid security problems. It would be nice to update without rebooting, but then you'll have a virus that blocks the update.
Other OSes need to start being honest about their "hackers don't give a shit about us, or they use us and don't want to shit in their own backyard" privilege.
@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Long as the full OS is running, you can't trust an update actually went through.
Brainwashed Windows User spotted
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If Windows didn't exist, Apple would crumble under it's own weight.
Linux would still be around, but the casual user running Linux would be out of date on everything and completely insecure, wrecking the internet.
Forced updates suck for us, but it's better for the internet as a whole.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
If Windows didn't exist, Apple would crumble under it's own weight.
If Windows didn't exist, other OS would exist. See IT industry in the 80 and 90.
Linux would still be around, but the casual user running Linux would be out of date on everything and completely insecure, wrecking the internet.
Most Internet facing servers are running Linux, so the internet is already wrecked
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
People are becoming more and more security-conscious, so they load the new OS down with spyware ahem "telemetry".
What's the relationship between security and telemetry? Are you implying there is one?
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
People are getting fed up with advertising being shoved in their faces all over the Web, so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
As I've said several times before: Apple does shit like this and the market responds by dumping billions of dollars on Apple's lap.
Maybe Apple's business model doesn't work for Microsoft, but if you're Microsoft, wouldn't you assume it would?
So while I get that you hate the change, and maybe even agree that it's a bad change, it's easy to understand why Microsoft is doing what they're doing.
@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Is it any wonder it's almost universally reviled?
Bullshit. Tons of people like it, technical and non-technical alike.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Brainwashed Windows User spotted
Except he's right. Updating the bad code on disk doesn't guarantee the in memory copy of that code also got updated.
That's just as true in OS X or Linux. In Linux, you can swap all the bad code for good code on disk, without any errors or jumping any hoops, and yet your computer remains just as vulnerable because the bad code is still running in memory.
Windows-style locking of files is actually a great solution to this exact problem, if Linux users would pull their head out of their asses and realize it.
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@blakeyrat said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
That's just as true in OS X or Linux. In Linux, you can swap all the bad code for good code on disk, without any errors or jumping any hoops, and yet your computer remains just as vulnerable because the bad code is still running in memory.
Windows-style locking of files is actually a great solution to this exact problem, if Linux users would pull their head out of their asses and realize it.I already explained to you why you are wrong.
But hey, don't let facts stop you from spewing bullshit.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I already explained to you why you are wrong.
You said, and I quote:
Brainwashed Windows User spotted
That's not a very good technical explanation.
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@blakeyrat said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
That's not a very good technical explanation.
I gave you a technical explanation months ago in another thread.
You can search for it. I won't do the work for you.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
You can search for it.
I'll get right on it.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I already explained to you why you are wrong.
But hey, don't let facts stop you from spewing bullshit.Technically you could rotate programs instead of shutting down, but that wouldn't be all that hard for a virus on a live OS to spoof. Much harder to spoof restarting the machine.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
People are getting fed up with advertising being shoved in their faces all over the Web, so they add ads to the freaking Start menu!
No repro.
"Get Office"
When first introduced, if you removed it, it came back with the next update. They finally fixed that - now when you uninstall, it stays uninstalled. (I was on insider builds - not sure the regeneration ability was released to the general public)I have seen ads pop up in the notification area - but I turned that off by r-clicking on the banner.
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@dcon said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
(I was on insider builds - not sure the regeneration ability was released to the general public)
So, something bad happened in a beta.
Ok...
@dcon said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I have seen ads pop up in the notification area
No repro.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
So, something bad happened in a beta.
Point is, "Get Office" was released to the public. It's purely an ad to get users to get Office. The user is required to take action to make it go away.
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@xaade said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Technically you could rotate programs instead of shutting down, but that wouldn't be all that hard for a virus on a live OS to spoof. Much harder to spoof restarting the machine.
What kind of crappy OS are you using where the update system can be spoofed by a virus ?
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@blakeyrat said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
That's just as true in OS X or Linux. In Linux, you can swap all the bad code for good code on disk, without any errors or jumping any hoops, and yet your computer remains just as vulnerable because the bad code is still running in memory.
Indeed. There's this perception that you can live-update everything, but that's really only true for the applications; you need to update the kernel about once a month (same as Windows) if you're keeping up with security updates and that requires a reboot or kexec (few minutes of downtime, same as Windows).
(Yes, there's kpatch but I as well as every other administrator I know just reboots after kernel updates anyway. What the fuck is wrong with a couple minutes of downtime once a month in order to ensure a stable environment? 99.999% of users don't have a 99.999% uptime SLA, so who cares.)
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@heterodox The only time it makes sense to be to go for maximum uptime is when running servers, but let's be honest, if you're that worried about uptime, you'll be running a server cluster with fail-overs and everything.
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@RaceProUK Right. You update the first cluster member, reboot it, and by the time the second cluster member's updated and ready for a reboot, the first one is back up. To hear people bitch about it, you'd think updates were coming out every week and it takes two and a half hours to reboot. Get out of the 1990s, for fuck's sake.
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@heterodox The problem isn't the "few minutes of downtime" to perform the reboot; it's the dozen programs I have running at any given moment (not exaggerating) that then have to be tracked down, restarted, and restored to their present state, which can take half an hour.
I have no problem rebooting my Android phone, because when it comes back up I can hit the Square button and see all my apps exactly the way I left them. Windows doesn't do that, so rebooting is a big deal.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Most Internet facing servers are running Linux, so the internet is already wrecked
Key words were casual user. So, there goes actually reading what I posted.
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox The problem isn't the "few minutes of downtime" to perform the reboot; it's the dozen programs I have running at any given moment (not exaggerating) that then have to be tracked down, restarted, and restored to their present state, which can take half an hour.
I have no problem rebooting my Android phone, because when it comes back up I can hit the Square button and see all my apps exactly the way I left them. Windows doesn't do that, so rebooting is a big deal.
I'm a noob when it comes to things like this, but couldn't you write a script of some kind that runs when windows boots up that starts all of said apps for you?
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
99.999% of users don't have a 99.999% uptime SLA, so who cares.
And even if. 99.999% uptime is best guaranteed by redundancy, making rebooting a mitigated risk.
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@SlackerD Not really. They aren't always the same programs, and they aren't always in the same state (ie same open documents, etc.)
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
you need to update the kernel about once a month (same as Windows) if you're keeping up with security updates
Where are pulling those numbers from, your ass ?
Debian Stable's kernel get updated a couple times a year.
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@SlackerD Not really. They aren't always the same programs, and they aren't always in the same state (ie same open documents, etc.)
Fair enough.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
you need to update the kernel about once a month (same as Windows) if you're keeping up with security updates
Where are pulling those numbers from, your ass ?
Debian Stable's kernel get updated a couple times a year.
Slackware is best.
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@SlackerD said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Slackware is best.
You're a real Slacker !
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Where are pulling those numbers from, your ass ?
No, from the few hundred RHEL servers I administer and the CVE announcements against linux:linux_kernel.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@SlackerD said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Slackware is best.
You're a real Slacker !
I've looked at that before. I don't have the time or the want to do that these days.
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@SlackerD said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
I'm a noob when it comes to things like this, but couldn't you write a script of some kind that runs when windows boots up that starts all of said apps for you?
Universal Windows apps will do that. Granted that that ecosystem should have been introduced years earlier so it's going to take ages to catch on now.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
you need to update the kernel about once a month (same as Windows) if you're keeping up with security updates
Where are pulling those numbers from, your ass ?
Yeah, good thing you made me check my recollection, because turns out I was wrong:
Over the past six months, Red Hat advisories that have resulted in a kernel update:
RHSA-2017:1308-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2017-1308.html
Issued on: 2017-05-25
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.21.1.el7.x86_64.rpmRHSA-2017:0933-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2017-0933.html
Issued on: 2017-04-12
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.16.1.el7.x86_64.rpmRHSA-2017:0386-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2017-0386.html
Issued on: 2017-03-02
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.10.2.el7.x86_64.rpmRHSA-2017:0294-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2017-0294.html
Issued on: 2017-02-22
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.6.2.el7.x86_64.rpmRHSA-2017:0086-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2017-0086.html
Issued on: 2017-01-17
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.6.1.el7.x86_64.rpmRHBA-2016:2862-1 https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHBA-2016-2862.html
Issued on: 2016-12-06
Kernel update: kernel-3.10.0-514.2.2.el7.x86_64.rpm
In that same timeframe, for Windows Server:
MS17-017 https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/security/MS17-017
Published: March 14, 2017
Security Update for Windows Kernel (4013081)MS16-152 https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/security/MS16-152
Published: December 13, 2016
Security Update for Windows Kernel (3199709)So a Windows Server system has to be updated much less frequently. As long as we're sharing anecdotal experience here.
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@heterodox said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Over the past six months, Red Hat advisories that have resulted in a kernel update:
One more reason to use Debian stable (only 2 kernel update this year): https://www.debian.org/security/2017/
So a Windows Server system has to be updated much less frequently.
If you're only talking about the kernel, maybe
On the other hand, only Kernel updates require a reboot on Linux
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@masonwheeler said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
it's almost universally reviled
Is it? Maybe by the kind of person who considers the Start menu covering the whole screen to be the end of the world but people who actually use their computer to do stuff seem to like it.
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Oh man, this is one of those times where I feel bad because I've actually encountered this exact problem and might have been able to tell you to check the USB drivers right from the get go. The Windows installer is really great at totally annihilating itself trying to recognize EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF HARDWARE ON YOUR MACHINE, no matter how irrelevant it is to installing Windows.
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@coldandtired said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Start menu covering the whole screen to be the end of the world
I actually prefer this on my Surface Pro, being more of a tablety type device, but have it changed to a normal popup menu on my gaming desktop.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
On the other hand, only Kernel updates require a reboot on Linux
That's also true on Windows. Windows can also swap-out drivers for most bits of hardware without rebooting as an added bonus.
Non-kernel updates can be done by logging out all users and cycling all running Services. In either Linux or Windows. Thing is: there's no practical difference between doing that and rebooting. In fact, in Windows, if not in Linux, that takes longer than rebooting.
The only difference between the two OSes, security-update-wise, is that Linux has a bunch of moron fans like TimeBandit who claim it can miraculously do things it can't, while Microsoft users are firmly grounded in reality. (Thankfully, Linux also has users like heterodox who seem to actually know how their computers work.)
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@coldandtired said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
Is it? Maybe by the kind of person who considers the Start menu covering the whole screen to be the end of the world but people who actually use their computer to do stuff seem to like it.
Yeah, I've got a dozen programs open because I'm not using my computer to do anything.
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@TimeBandit said in The episode where Microsoft won't tell me what's REALLY going on:
One more reason to use Debian stable (only 2 kernel update this year): https://www.debian.org/security/2017/
You're comparing a commercial operating system (Windows) to a non commercial operating system (Debian). Apples and oranges. Good for you for using a distribution that updates less frequently, I guess. (I mean, I'd argue that it's not good for you, but I also recognize that other users' use cases are not my own.)
If you're only talking about the kernel, maybe
There were other bulletins (e.g. Flash Player) but they were published on the same day as the kernel/OS updates. You can go on the Microsoft Security Bulletins page and check yourself. Windows updates don't come out more than once a month on Patch Tuesday, as a general rule, and that's comparable to a commercial Linux desktop or server distribution.
I'm not cherry-picking here, I'm making a good-faith effort to reconcile and present my understanding on the difference between Windows and Linux update distribution. There's less than you think, it's just that we naturally focus on the inconveniences when we experience them.