Clutch!



  • @bb36e said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Adventures in San Francisco:
    0_1494830052213_14948300518000.jpg

    Those 4-ways stops are ... interesting ... when going uphill with a manual.



  • @dcon why?



  • @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    @dcon why?

    I'm guessing he doesn't know how to drive away uphill in a manual without rolling back.

    My colleague was in the US for a week last week. He tried to rent a manual car. He failed.



  • @PleegWat I would have failed my test if I couldn't do that.



  • @PleegWat Even if you do know how, it's still a pain.



  • @anotherusername Really? Keep handbrake on, lift clutch to biting point and add throttle. The trick is not burning out you clutch when it is really steep.



  • @lucas1 that's the parking brake, and you're not supposed to use it unless you're parking. So no.

    It's perfectly manageable, it just has to be better timed and requires more finesse than starting on level ground.



  • @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    that's the parking brake, and you're not supposed to use it unless you're parking. So no.

    No. It is the handbrake and it is used to keep the car safely stopped when you come to rest, In the UK you are taught to put it in whenever you come to a STOP sign or you are waiting for more than say 20 seconds.

    Most hill starts in the UK use the handbrake. If I follow your logic every driving instructor in the UK is wrong?

    I can do it without using the handbrake no problem. But using the handbrake saves your clutch and gives you lots of control. Yes you can you use the foot brake but you don't have as much control so you might as use the handbrake and really isn't advisable unless you are off road.

    Also you can break your foot, if someone slams into your car while stationary. So using the handbrake is still safer.



  • @PleegWat said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    I'm guessing he doesn't know how to drive away uphill in a manual without rolling back.

    I know how! Some of the SF hills are very steep. If you mess up your timing by a microsecond, you'll tap bumpers with the fucker who decided to stop 6 inches behind you. (no, I didn't. but it was close)



  • @dcon In the UK if you rollback on a hillstart ... test failed.



  • @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    that's the parking brake, and you're not supposed to use it unless you're parking. So no.

    So every driving instructor in the UK is wrong?

    I can do it without using the handbrake no problem. But using the handbrake saves your clutch and gives you lots of control.

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is :doing_it_wrong:. It's slightly less :doing_it_wrong: than rolling backward while trying to start, but even that page specifically says it's is only to be used for extra safety, when you're a new driver first trying to get the hang of all these pedals and levers:

    use the handbrake as a 'safety lever' to prevent the car from rolling back

    When new drivers have a problem with starting on hills, it is usually because they are worried about rolling back.

    with practise you will find that you soon get the right 'feel' for the clutch every time and that you won't need to pull handbrake back at all

    ...once you've learned how, you shouldn't be using it anymore.

    My car doesn't even have a handbrake. It has a parking brake, which is operated with a foot lever, and releasing it requires reaching down to yank a knob that's somewhere around the same vicinity as the hood release knob -- not something I could easily do while trying to do a hill start, even if I wanted. But even if the e-brake is a handbrake, it still shouldn't be used for ordinary driving.



  • @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is

    Nope. It is not an emergency brake. It is simply a strong brake to make sure when the car is stopped it stays stopped.

    @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:
    It's slightly less than rolling backward while trying to start, but even that page specifically says it's is only to be used for extra safety, when you're a new driver first trying to get the hang of all these pedals and levers:

    It makes it significantly easier and if the car is at rest you should have it engaged anyway.

    For several reasons

    1. Holding the foot brake excessively can damage the disc
    2. If someone hits you from behind you can break your foot
    3. If you are in the dark you can blind the driver behind with your brake lights.
    4. If someone hits you from behind your car is under control.

    There is no reason not to use it other than some sort of mis-placed vanity.


  • sockdevs

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is

    Nope. It is not an emergency brake. It is simply a strong brake to make sure when the car is stopped it stays stopped.

    I think this is one of those UK-US differences: handbrake in the UK, emergency brake in the US.



  • @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    ...once you've learned how, you shouldn't be using it anymore.

    Again this is vanity.

    My car doesn't even have a handbrake

    Sorry I drive a regular everyman's car in the UK.

    My car doesn't even have a handbrake. It has a parking brake, which is operated with a foot lever, and releasing it requires reaching down to yank a knob that's somewhere around the same vicinity as the hood release knob -- not something I could easily do while trying to do a hill start, even if I wanted. But even if the e-brake is a handbrake, it still shouldn't be used for ordinary driving.

    And e-brake is a handbrake according to a quick google. So you are telling me that you know better than every driver instructor in the UK? I think not.

    I can ride the clutch and creep up a hill no problem. But it fucks your clutch. Or I could not be lazy, safe and save my clutch plate and just pull the handbrake up while I am waiting. The car is at rest and won't move. I can then prepare my feet and all I have to do to pull away is unengage the handbrake.



  • @anotherusername

    To clear something up. If the car is moving and you use the handbrake in the UK it is an instant test failure. You must stop the car with the footbrake first before applying the handbrake.


  • area_can

    @dcon said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Those 4-ways stops are ... interesting ... when going uphill with a manual.

    Driving here seems like it'd be terrifying, especially having to turn left at the top of a hill and not being able to see if there's any oncoming traffic


  • mod

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    It is simply a strong brake to make sure when the car is stopped it stays stopped.

    Not likely. Most handbrakes are simply a mechanism for engaging the rear brakes. I wouldn't call that a "strong brake."

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    If someone hits you from behind you can break your foot

    [Citation Needed]

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    If you are in the dark you can blind the driver behind with your brake lights.

    [Citation Needed]

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    If someone hits you from behind your car is under control.

    I previously linked a small study that showed that in the event you are rear ended, if your foot is on the brake there are basically 2 scenarios:

    1. You don't see the impact coming. In this situation, your foot will almost certainly leave the pedal, but for about a tenth of a second.
    2. You see the impact coming. In this situation, you will have time to brace, and you probably won't completely let up pressure on the brakes during the collision.

    In either case, in a low speed impact, the amount of time that braking force is reduced on the foot brake is minimal, and your vehicle will have minimal forward travel. In a high speed impact, it is likely that the collision will overcome your braking force, most likely by causing your tires to skid. Since hand brakes work by engaging the rear brakes, they will provide minimal assistance in the event of a rear end collision.

    ETA: Ah, found the study again: http://papers.sae.org/2010-01-0067/



  • @abarker said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Not likely. Most handbrakes are simply a mechanism for engaging the rear brakes. I wouldn't call that a "strong brake."

    The foot brake engages all 4 brakes. The handbrake tends to be a lot stronger.

    EDIT: I don't mean stronger. It is much more stable and once I put it on the car is likely to stay at rest.


  • sockdevs

    @lucas1 All the handbrake does is engage the rear brakes using a cable rather than hydraulics, making it at best half the strength of the footbrake.



  • @abarker Admittadly I've heard this 2nd hand about breaking your foot. But there is a large force going through the brake line I can see this happening.

    The blinding people with the brake lights is legit. It is covered in the UK theory test. I can't find my theory test paper but I am not making this up. I passed my practical test and my theory almost perfectly.

    I only had 2 minors in my practical test and one question wrong in my theory.



  • @RaceProUK Sorry I not explaning myself properly.

    What I mean is that when I engage the handbrake it is set. The footbrake isn't.



  • @bb36e That was my driving test in Bournemouth.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.7259692,-1.8962309,3a,75y,356.1h,58.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shBkLgaw3hDs_9iQvzgFLlw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    Google maps doesn't really do justic on how steep the pull away is in a small litre car and you can't really see anything.



  • @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    I can ride the clutch and creep up a hill no problem. But it fucks your clutch.

    Who said anything about riding the clutch? I didn't. I start on a hill exactly the same way as you do, except that I use the regular brake to prevent the car moving while I'm stopped.


  • sockdevs

    @anotherusername Do you drive an automatic, perchance?



  • @anotherusername You have to take your foot away from the brake and put it on gas unless you are doing something like heel-toe.

    Either way you can damage the discs if they are hot by holding your foot down, or you will roll back. Even if you are quick the car will roll back if it is sufficiently steep and you aren't using your handbrake to stabilise.

    In a Diesel you are more likely to get away with feathering the clutch but even then you are risking stalling on anything that is steep.



  • @RaceProUK said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    @anotherusername Do you drive an automatic, perchance?

    I drive both. Most often it's with a manual transmission.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @PleegWat said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    My colleague was in the US for a week last week. He tried to rent a manual car. He failed.

    I haven't seen a manual car available for rental here in well over 20 years.



  • @lucas1
    If you have poor clutch control


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Interesting as all this car talk is, perhaps one of the @mods should Jeff it to its own thread?

    [mod - done - PJH]


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @anotherusername said in Clutch!:

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is :doing_it_wrong:.

    First of all, nobody outside the US calls it "emergency brake". Secondly, you're wrong. Every driving school in Germany teaches you to use the handbrake after stopping when driving uphill. I have no idea why you would do something else, it's the easiest and most foolproof method to start with a manual transmission on a hill.



  • Aw, man! I was kinda hoping this would be jeffed into Why are we not rolling back?



  • @asdf said in Clutch!:

    First of all, nobody outside the US calls it "emergency brake".

    They're wrong.

    @asdf said in Clutch!:

    Secondly, you're wrong.

    No, you're wrong.

    @asdf said in Clutch!:

    Every driving school in Germany teaches you to use the handbrake after stopping when driving uphill.

    They're all wrong.

    @asdf said in Clutch!:

    I have no idea why you would do something else, it's the easiest and most foolproof method to start with a manual transmission on a hill.

    It's wrong.

    :trolleybus:



  • @asdf said in Clutch!:

    @anotherusername said in Clutch!:

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is :doing_it_wrong:.

    First of all, nobody outside the US calls it "emergency brake". Secondly, you're wrong. Every driving school in Germany teaches you to use the handbrake after stopping when driving uphill. I have no idea why you would do something else, it's the easiest and most foolproof method to start with a manual transmission on a hill.

    Indeed. Though it's less needed with several modern cars as, for example, my five-year old VW Polo has a "hill assist" feature which prevents the car from rolling back unless the reverse gear is engaged.


  • β™Ώ

    @lucas1 said in Clutch!:

    And e-brake is a handbrake according to a quick google. So you are telling me that you know better than every driver instructor in the UK? I think not.

    For starters, they all tell you to drive on the wrong side of the road, so...



  • @lucas1 said in Clutch!:

    The blinding people with the brake lights is legit. It is covered in the UK theory test.

    Do you guys have super bright brake lights or something? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stopped at a light without their brake lights on, and they're not blinding.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Clutch!:

    my five-year old VW Polo has a "hill assist" feature

    Kids these days! Back in my day, we didn't need those fancy "assistance" features to start a car on a hill. :belt_onion:

    Besides, every single additional piece of software in a car terrifies me.


  • sockdevs

    @hungrier said in Clutch!:

    @lucas1 said in Clutch!:

    The blinding people with the brake lights is legit. It is covered in the UK theory test.

    Do you guys have super bright brake lights or something? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stopped at a light without their brake lights on, and they're not blinding.

    I don't find them especially bright on most cars, but modern Audis and VWs use LEDs, which can be a bit piercing at night.



  • 0_1494949602701_IMG_0450.JPG



  • @RaceProUK Emergency brake is a very bad name for it and they should stop using it.

    Also, why would you ever put it on a pedal? I could understand if you put it on a button or lever or something, but pedals are meant to be for things that you employ while driving, and they are expected to go back to their original position when you release them.



  • @lucas1 said in Clutch!:

    For several reasons

    These are all bad reasons.

    1. Holding the foot brake excessively can damage the disc

    No, it doesn't, unless you've got some sort of monster crushing hydraulics set up for your brakes. Even if you hold the foot brake slightly while pressing the accelerator (so you only move forwards), the extra wear is minimal.

    1. If someone hits you from behind you can break your foot

    :confused: How would that even work? I know of no mechanism that would damage one's foot in such a way that would not also apply to having one's foot on the gas pedal or even just on the floor. Whoever told you this was just blowing a lot of smoke.

    1. If you are in the dark you can blind the driver behind with your brake lights.

    Brake lights are red, which is the least-blinding color in the dark. I would much rather the people behind me know that I still have my brakes on than imagine that they saw me start to move and then rear-end me.

    1. If someone hits you from behind your car is under control.

    The handbrake/emergency brake adds no extra control in the case of being rear-ended. It only helps make it harder for the vehicle that is pushing to move the one that is being pushed. That isn't more control; it's a lower limit for the control that the other vehicle can exert on you.



  • @hungrier said in Clutch!:

    Do you guys have super bright brake lights or something? I don't think I've ever seen anyone stopped at a light without their brake lights on, and they're not blinding.

    New car feature: instead of light bulbs, car uses laser pointers, with a camera to track the eyes of everyone behind it and point it at them.



  • @RaceProUK said in Clutch!:

    @lucas1 said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    @anotherusername said in πŸ“· Photos thread:

    Yes... using the emergency brake during ordinary driving is

    Nope. It is not an emergency brake. It is simply a strong brake to make sure when the car is stopped it stays stopped.

    I think this is one of those UK-US differences: handbrake in the UK, emergency brake in the US.

    If this brake is engaged by pressing a foot pedal (as in most pickups or older vehicles), is it still called a "handbrake"?

    I think "emergency brake" is possibly a better term, because it describes the purpose for the brake, instead of the method of engaging it.



  • @anonymous234 said in Clutch!:

    @RaceProUK Emergency brake is a very bad name for it and they should stop using it.

    Also, why would you ever put it on a pedal? I could understand if you put it on a button or lever or something, but pedals are meant to be for things that you employ while driving, and they are expected to go back to their original position when you release them.

    If I remember correctly, the parking brake on my first car was a pedal on the floor to the left (where the clutch is in manual cars, I think), and the release lever was on the dashboard above it.

    That was a 1989 car, though, so I have no idea if any cars more recent than that had the same thing.



  • @Dragnslcr said in Clutch!:

    f I remember correctly, the parking brake on my first car was a pedal on the floor to the left (where the clutch is in manual cars, I think), and the release lever was on the dashboard above it.
    That was a 1989 car, though, so I have no idea if any cars more recent than that had the same thing.

    I remember our Ford Econoline van had the parking brake there too. If I remember, pressing it a 2nd time was the release. But that's from the late 70s, so memory is a bit foggy...

    edit: didn't read closely enough - what @anotherusername said...



  • @Dragnslcr said in Clutch!:

    If I remember correctly, the parking brake on my first car was a pedal on the floor to the left (where the clutch is in manual cars, I think), and the release lever was on the dashboard above it.

    In my manual it's a pedal to the far left and it's higher up. It couldn't be confused with any of the other pedals. The release is somewhere near the hood release, but I wouldn't want to try to find it while driving. Releasing the hood by mistake could be ... bad.



  • Rule #1 in emergency behaviour: we do what we have always done. So if you are never allowed to use the emergency brake except in an actual emergency, then you are not going to split-second remember that "oh, I'll just use the emergency brake". So that is a dumb name.

    Parking brake, on the other hand, describes its primary use: to keep the car from rolling off when you have parked it. It is not stronger than the regular brakes, because it does not need to be: the intention is to keep the car from starting to roll, which requires less force than stopping it from continuing to roll. I've had cars where the rear (and hence also parking ) brakes were drum brakes and the front brakes were disc brakes.

    So now you have a piece of equipment on your car that can also nicely be used to stop the car from rolling backwards in an uphill slope -even if your intention is not to park. What do you do? Ignore it because you are not allowed to use it? Since when do US:ians care about rules?

    What you do do is to use the regular brake to shine the brake lights (redundantly, because you are either at a traffic light or waiting for other traffic) and the parking brake, so that you can get away that much quicker without risking to roll backwards towards the idiot who invariably is standing too close behind you.

    Anything else about wear and tear on the brakes and risking to snap your foot and whatnot is just bull based on that you got your driving license out of a cereal box and are trying to rationalise your bad driving.


  • sockdevs

    @anotherusername said in Clutch!:

    Releasing the hood by mistake could be ... bad.

    Not really: you'd still need to go to the front of the car and unhook the bonnet manually before it'll rise


  • β™Ώ

    @djls45 said in Clutch!:

    I think "emergency brake" is possibly a better term, because it describes the purpose for the brake, instead of the method of engaging it.

    It's really the parking brake, because you engage it when you park on a slope. The emergency when you park it that way and the transmission can't keep it from rolling.



  • @Mikael_Svahnberg said in Clutch!:

    It is not stronger than the regular brakes

    As you quickly discover when you start driving. And wonder why things feel sluggish.


  • β™Ώ

    @Mikael_Svahnberg said in Clutch!:

    So now you have a piece of equipment on your car that can also nicely be used to stop the car from rolling backwards in an uphill slope -even if your intention is not to park. What do you do?

    Buy a better car. :trolleybus:


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