VIM vs Emacs


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    @RaceProUK said in The Official Status Thread:

    Today's XKCD implies that there was a winner in the Emacs-Vim war :confused:

    That's it, VIM has won. Xkcd declared it, and it's the one installed by default in most GNU/Linux systems.



  • nano :four: ever.



  • @boomzilla Really? You beat me to saying that by a minute? :rolleyes:



  • @powerlord that's over a nano-millenium!


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @boomzilla nano seems terrible, but I never gave it a chance to be honest



  • @wharrgarbl it's superb for scm commit messages and updating config files.



  • @wharrgarbl nano is one of the worst editors in the world. It has about as many features as Windows's Notepad, with the added bonus of adding additional line breaks in your file if paragraphs don't fit in a single line of your terminal. But it still beats Vim in usability - because when you type in letters, they're automatically inserted into text by default.


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    @Gąska vim is really good after you get used to it's basic commands



  • @wharrgarbl everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand.

    I had quite a few coworkers at my last workplace who used Vim. They weren't much more productive than me with my sorry ass Notepad++ clone for Linux, a script wrapping find, and hand-typing grep commands.

    Side note - Notepad++ is probably the only major open-source project in existence that's not written in C# and doesn't work on Linux.



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    Can you do the thing where vim starts up in less than 1 second in MSVC or does it still take so long they gave it a splash screen and then it takes another minute after the splash screen disappears?



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Side note - Notepad++ is probably the only major open-source project in existence that's not written in C# and doesn't work on Linux.

    Nah, NodeBB is a major open source project, and we're running it on Linux here.



  • @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    Can you do the thing where vim starts up in less than 1 second in MSVC or does it still take so long they gave it a splash screen and then it takes another minute after the splash screen disappears?

    Oh noes, I waste 20 seconds per day waiting for my IDE to start up! That's literally ¢2 worth of my time!

    *goes to kitchen to make and drink a coffee*



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    Can you do the thing where vim starts up in less than 1 second in MSVC or does it still take so long they gave it a splash screen and then it takes another minute after the splash screen disappears?

    Oh noes, I waste 20 seconds per day waiting for my IDE to start up! That's literally ¢2 worth of my time!

    *goes to kitchen to make and drink a coffee*

    It takes like 2 minutes, so that's more than half a dollar.

    I COULD BUY A WHOLE BUNCH OF STEAM TRADING CARDS WITH THE MONEY I'M WASTING



  • @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    Can you do the thing where vim starts up in less than 1 second in MSVC or does it still take so long they gave it a splash screen and then it takes another minute after the splash screen disappears?

    Oh noes, I waste 20 seconds per day waiting for my IDE to start up! That's literally ¢2 worth of my time!

    *goes to kitchen to make and drink a coffee*

    It takes like 2 minutes, so that's more than half a dollar.

    If it takes 2 minutes to start up VS, then you probably already waited 5 minutes for Windows to boot and 3 minutes for Chrome and Outlook to start responding. These 2 minutes don't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    Can you do the thing where vim starts up in less than 1 second in MSVC or does it still take so long they gave it a splash screen and then it takes another minute after the splash screen disappears?

    Oh noes, I waste 20 seconds per day waiting for my IDE to start up! That's literally ¢2 worth of my time!

    *goes to kitchen to make and drink a coffee*

    It takes like 2 minutes, so that's more than half a dollar.

    If it takes 2 minutes to start up VS, then you probably already waited 5 minutes for Windows to boot and 3 minutes for Chrome and Outlook to start responding.

    Yeah, but I don't have to reboot my computer every day. I can't keep Visual Studio running in the background because then I wouldn't be able to open a fifth Chrome tab!



  • @ben_lubar IT'S CURRENT YEAR! WHY DON'T YOU HAVE TWO GIGABYTES OF RAM ALREADY!



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar IT'S CURRENT YEAR! WHY DON'T YOU HAVE TWO GIGABYTES OF RAM ALREADY!

    CHROME NEEDS EIGHTY GIGABYTES OF RAM PER TAB



  • @ben_lubar another example of why GC-ed languages with "Java" in name aren't suited for games.

    #dwarffortress



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @ben_lubar another example of why GC-ed languages with "Java" in name aren't suited for games.

    #dwarffortress

    Dwarf Fortress is written in C++. I believe you are thinking of RuneScapeMinecraft shit what games haven't been ported to C++



  • @ben_lubar RuneScape has been ported to C++? :O



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    nano is one of the worst editors in the world. It has about as many features as Windows's Notepad

    Which is what makes it good for doing simple edits in things like config files. It isn't meant to be a full IDE, which makes it much simpler than editors that try to be IDEs.

    with the added bonus of adding additional line breaks in your file if paragraphs don't fit in a single line of your terminal.

    There's a config option, set nowrap, to disable word wrapping.



  • @Dragnslcr said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    nano is one of the worst editors in the world. It has about as many features as Windows's Notepad

    Which is what makes it good for doing simple edits in things like config files. It isn't meant to be a full IDE, which makes it much simpler than editors that try to be IDEs.

    It's not simpler to use than Notepad++. And "to use" is the only "simpler" that matters.

    @Dragnslcr said in VIM vs Emacs:

    There's a config option, set nowrap, to disable word wrapping.

    Then I don't see what I'm typing. It's the only editor I'm aware of that when non-wrapping text extends beyond right edge, it moves a whole screen to the right (hiding all the text you've written so far) instead of sticking to the right edge.

    Seriously, stop defending nano. It's very primitive and unergonomic - and was for at least the last two decades. There are only three reasons to ever use it: it's preinstalled on most Linux distros, it works in terminal, and it's not Vim.



  • @Gąska cat > file is the best text editor.



  • @ben_lubar: taking away "edit" from "editor" since 2001.



  • @wharrgarbl said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That's it, VIM has won. Xkcd declared it, and it's the one installed by default in most GNU/Linux systems.

    This argument looks incredibly silly to someone who had to drag people kicking and screaming off of Edgar and get them to use Xedit (on VM/CMS).

    (That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything. I once had to install a machine-language patch using Linedit. Over 300bps dial-up. On a Radio Shack Model 100.

    In my underwear.



  • @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything.

    You must have never been around real programmers for too long.



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything.

    You must have never been around real programmers for too long.

    Or perhaps I was around real programmers when the phrase meant people who could actually program. You know, like back in the late Pleistocene, before Windows 1.0.



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything.

    You must have never been around real programmers for too long.

    I frequently use vim keybindings in Visual Studio and vice versa.

    Pressing ctrl+space does nothing in vim, but ^X^O deletes the current line into the clipboard and then opens the open file dialog.

    Therefore Visual Studio is bad.



  • @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything.

    You must have never been around real programmers for too long.

    Or perhaps I was around real programmers when the phrase meant people who could actually program.

    Nowadays, so many people can actually program that the bar for being "real" programmer had to be rised significantly. A "real" programmer is someone who, in addition to being able to code, bitches all the time about other people's code, always tinkers with their OS, and has extremely strong opinions on unimportant subjects. Coincidentally, the amount of bitching, tinkering and opinions correlates with knowledge, skills and attention to details - all very valuable traits for the employer.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Coincidentally, the amount of bitching, tinkering and opinions correlates with knowledgeinsufferableness

    If we're being honest…


  • Dupa

    @boomzilla said in VIM vs Emacs:

    nano :four: ever.

    Everyone knows that the best is

    copy con



  • Speaking of editors, I somehow got git commit to open vim in PowerShell, but vim and $env:EDITOR don't work in PowerShell. So I can edit commit messages in vim, but not write code in vim.

    Also, the version of vim that came with whatever version of git PowerShell is currently using has a dumb feature where copying text with y puts it in the OS clipboard, so once again I have one clipboard with two handles.



  • I stick to VIM for now. I'll give MSVC another serious consideration if start playing nicer with sloppy focus under windows. Right now MSVC autoraises itself whenever it gets focus if you last had focused an editor window in it. Bloody annoying.

    I also really wish you could get rid of its main window after undocking the editors, project view and what not. But minimizing it also minimizes the project thing and the output console, so that's not really an option.

    Filed under: Death to MDI



  • @cvi said in VIM vs Emacs:

    after undocking

    Wait, people intentionally undock the windows?



  • @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Wait, people intentionally undock the windows?

    It's hard to mix them into the Z-stacking with windows from other programs such as firefox otherwise.


  • :belt_onion:

    @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Also, the version of vim that came with whatever version of git PowerShell is currently using has a dumb feature where copying text with y puts it in the OS clipboard, so once again I have one clipboard with two handles.

    There is a setting named clipboard which regulates that, if you don't want to overwrite the OS clipboard by default then this setting should be empty. Try running :verbose set clipboard to see which config file last touched that setting.


  • :belt_onion:

    Also for the record: I use one or more of the following depending on what thing I'm working on:

    • Vim
    • Eclipse + Vrapper
    • MSVS + VsVim
    • Notepad++
    • Sublime Text 3 + Vintageous
    • MS Word + Shortcuts in my keyboard firmware (though they work for the above programs as well)

    However, Real programmers :tm: use 8086 machine code.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @JBert said in VIM vs Emacs:

    MS Word

    I hope you're not using that as an editor. :doing_it_wrong:



  • @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    There are only three reasons to ever use it: it's preinstalled on most Linux distros, it works in terminal, and it's not Vim.

    Well, that's the entire fucking point of nano, isn't it? It's MEANT to be a notepad for terminal. How is that a bad thing?

    I admit the line wrapping thing is annoying, but apart from that, it's perfect at its job.

    It's not nano's fault that the Linux world still treats GUIs as second class citizens, forcing people to use terminal interfaces.


    And Vim should not even be in this conversation. A text editor that requires a 10 minute tutorial to be used is obviously not an appropriate choice if you just want to edit a line in a file.

    Having an interface that takes time to learn is not in itself a bad thing. It can allow more complex stuff than "intuitive" interfaces. But it's not what 99% of users will want.

    The fact that the Linux world has for so long treated Vim as an appropriate default for new users just shows how much they fail to understand usability.


  • mod

    By the way, if anyone can tell me why Atom on my home PC has an atrocious memory leak so I can't leave it running in the background, or why on my work PC it abruptly quits in the middle of use, I'd be grateful. Or rather, I don't care why, how do I fix it? At this rate I'll never switch off Sublime.



  • @Yamikuronue said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Or rather, I don't care why, how do I fix it?

    The same way you fix all other software problems. Close the program, delete all persistent data on disk and open it again.


  • mod

    @anonymous234 Atom already tries to do that for me :)



  • @ben_lubar said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @Gąska cat > file is the best text editor.

    ed, man!


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @PleegWat said in VIM vs Emacs:

    ed, man!

    ???

    I'm not sure he's qualified.



  • @asdf

    NAME
           ed, red - text editor
    
    SYNOPSIS
           ed [-GVhs] [-p string] [file]
    
           red [-GVhs] [-p string] [file]
    
    DESCRIPTION
           ed  is  a line-oriented text editor.  It is used to create, display, modify and otherwise manipulate text files.  red is a
           restricted ed: it can only edit files in the current directory and cannot execute shell commands.
    

  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @Gąska said in VIM vs Emacs:

    everything you can do in Vim, I can do in MSVC without really learning it beforehand

    MSVC is an IDE, VIM is a text editor. The vim vs ide thread is https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/327/vim-vs-ide-flame-on


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @PleegWat :whoosh:

    I know what ed is.



  • @da-Doctah said in VIM vs Emacs:

    @wharrgarbl said in VIM vs Emacs:

    That's it, VIM has won. Xkcd declared it, and it's the one installed by default in most GNU/Linux systems.

    This argument looks incredibly silly to someone who had to drag people kicking and screaming off of Edgar and get them to use Xedit (on VM/CMS).

    (That said, a real programmer can adapt to almost anything. I once had to install a machine-language patch using Linedit. Over 300bps dial-up. On a Radio Shack Model 100.

    In my underwear.

    Was it snowing?



  • @boomzilla said in VIM vs Emacs:

    Was it snowing?

    Why would that matter?

    Right, USA. Crappy overhead phone lines.



  • @PleegWat
    Well, it also makes it more dramatic when one is walking uphill both ways to get to the computer used to remote in to the client site.


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