Passover WTF


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    So the traditional Seder plate they mention has the following items:

    • horseradish
    • a lamb shank bone
    • charoset (made of apples, walnuts, and wine)
    • romaine lettuce
    • parsley
    • a boiled egg

    Only two items on that list aren't vegan.... but it replaces all of them anyway. :wtf:?

    They replace the shank bone, symbolic of the sacrificed lamb, with.... a beet. No explanation of why or how that's religiously relevant, just, "try a roasted beet instead".

    The egg they at least tried: it represents (in their words, I'm not a Judaism expert) "the pre-holiday offering", " the cycle of life", and "new beginnings and hope". They suggest an avocado pit: it's round, and it sprouts so it counts as new beginnings. So at least that's not half-assed.

    But they literally suggest replacing parsley with kale, because kale is trendy. :wtf: Ditto for endives, which are "having their moment".


  • BINNED

    Judaism is full of weird shit. I recently learned about this

    Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to own any leavened bread over Passover, so they sell it to a gentile, then buy it back (or, according to one account I've heard, just default on the payment). The bread never leaves their house, it's just owned by someone else


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Jaloopa yeah, I love reading about Judaism; it sounds like a DnD religion, but it's a real thing. It's great.


  • SockDev

    The egg/avocado switch I can see working. As for the lamb shank bone, given it's not meant to be eaten, replace it with a bone model made from fibreglass or plaster or something. I mean, looking like a bone is good enough for the symbolism, right?

    Use some cilantro

    What is the obsession some have with this? It's just a herb.

    You can't have a modern-day anything and not include kale.

    If you dare try and put kale on my bacon sandwich, I will remove your sternum.


    One of the linked articles:

    Rotten lettuce is sometimes used to remind people that inner-city grocery stores often carry only spoiled produce.

    So, it's used to symbolise grocery stores that are likely violating a whole host of health and safety laws? Also, what's with the bashing inner-city stores in the first place?

    Many will tell you that the orange represents women and feminism.

    Huh? That doesn't make sense.

    However Heschel herself repudiates this myth, saying that she added the orange to honor lesbians and gay men.

    That makes even less sense!

    As an acknowledgement of interfaith marriages, the artichoke inclusion has been growing in popularity.

    OK, now you're just making shit up for the sake of it.


  • SockDev

    @RaceProUK said in Passover WTF:

    Use some cilantro

    What is the obsession some have with this? It's just a herb.

    Why Does Cilantro Taste Like Soap? – 02:53
    — SciShow


  • SockDev

    @accalia Tastes like soap? I thought that was coriand- Oh, cilantro is coriander.


  • BINNED

    @Yamikuronue The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast recently had a guest presenter who's an ex orthodox Jew. Whenever he's on he does a section called Jewy or Fiction, where he gives three facts about Judaism, one of which is false and the others have to guess which ones are real. It's pretty fascinating


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Jaloopa Is that a long-format (hour or hour+) podcast or a short one? I'm always looking for good short-format casts


  • BINNED

    @Yamikuronue long format. It's usually between 60 and 90 minutes.

    The only shorter podcasts I can recommend are Skeptoid, which focuses on telling stories of the paranormal or conspiracy theories, and then debunking them, and More Or Less, (30 minutes when the main Radio 4 series is on, 10-15 otherwise from the World Service). Explaining statistics in a nice approachable format


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Jaloopa Cool! I usually find that longer podcasts tend to be rawer, and generally unedited or only minimally edited. Shorter podcasts they tend to stay on topic and edit tightly to produce a polished product. Plus, my commute is only 30-45 minutes, so it'd take me multiple trips to listen to an episode.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Yamikuronue I have friends who do several podcasts between them. I've been on a few, heard by whole dozens of people!

    One such podcast is best pitched as "Adam and Adam get drunk and talk at microphones for between 10 minutes and 6 hours"

    It gets zero editing and minimal care.

    Others, though, are basically some of the best sounding long form podcasts out there, and take absurd amounts of time to put together.



  • @RaceProUK said in Passover WTF:

    "Use some cilantro"

    What is the obsession some have with this? It's just a herb.

    Because it's so good! I know, I know...unpopular opinions are :arrows:



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    They replace the shank bone, symbolic of the sacrificed lamb, with.... a beet. No explanation of why or how that's religiously relevant, just, "try a roasted beet instead".

    Yeah, that's really bizarre.

    The egg they at least tried: it represents (in their words, I'm not a Judaism expert) "the pre-holiday offering", " the cycle of life", and "new beginnings and hope". They suggest an avocado pit: it's round, and it sprouts so it counts as new beginnings. So at least that's not half-assed.

    Yup, the egg is generally used as a symbol of new life, since Passover is also a festival celebrating the beginning of spring. I guess any seed would be as good a substitute as any other, so I can see going with something delicious like avocado.



  • @Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:

    Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to own any leavened bread over Passover, so they sell it to a gentile, then buy it back (or, according to one account I've heard, just default on the payment). The bread never leaves their house, it's just owned by someone else

    Also applies to Conservative Jews, though I'm not sure how many Reform Jews still do it. Overall, though, it's fairly moderate in terms of legal loopholes that Jews have come up with over the centuries.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    @Jaloopa yeah, I love reading about Judaism; it sounds like a DnD religion, but it's a real thing. It's great.

    The fundamental idea that you have to keep in mind is that Judaism is heavily based on a well-defined legal code. Unlike Christianity, Islam, and most other religions that are still around, Judaism is a tribal religion that deals not only with the supernatural, but also with regular civil law as well. Critics like to spout how the Bible is just a bunch of made-up myths, when those types of stories are only about 1/4 of the Torah. The rest of it are things like a highly detailed architectural design document and a description of how much money you owe your neighbor if your ox kills his sheep.

    Most of the strange things that you read about are simply the result of 3,000 years of interpretation of the written legal code. A lot of modern countries have at least a few seemingly non-sensical situations that are the result of repeated court cases concerning some law from a few hundred years ago. In that regard, Judaism isn't any different.

    And then there's Kabbalah. That shit is just weird.



  • @Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:

    Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to own any leavened bread over Passover, so they sell it to a gentile, then buy it back (or, according to one account I've heard, just default on the payment). The bread never leaves their house, it's just owned by someone else

    I wonder if any of those gentiles ever knocks on the door and demands their bread?

    In a culture based on technically following the rules, that should be OK.



  • @Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:

    Unlike Christianity, Islam, and most other religions that are still around, Judaism is a tribal religion that deals not only with the supernatural, but also with regular civil law as well.

    Well, Islam has Sharia.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    They replace the shank bone, symbolic of the sacrificed lamb, with.... a beet. No explanation of why or how that's religiously relevant, just, "try a roasted beet instead".

    Wait, do vegans not allow any part of an animal at their dinners?

    Does that mean if I hide a nail clipping somewhere in their kitchen cabinets they'll die or something?


    Is the idea of the roasted beet "exactly the same number of human people would be willing to eat this"?


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:

    do vegans not allow any part of an animal at their dinners?

    Often, vegans don't allow animal products in their homes, because the goal is to reduce animal death and discomfort. You've never heard of vegans who don't wear leather?



  • @ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:

    Does that mean if I hide a nail clipping somewhere in their kitchen cabinets they'll die or something?

    I think that, like any other person, they'd be pissed off at you doing this if they found out.

    @ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:

    Wait, do vegans not allow any part of an animal at their dinners?

    Supposedly they don't like animal anything.



  • @anonymous234 said in Passover WTF:

    @Jaloopa said in Passover WTF:

    Orthodox Jews aren't allowed to own any leavened bread over Passover, so they sell it to a gentile, then buy it back (or, according to one account I've heard, just default on the payment). The bread never leaves their house, it's just owned by someone else

    I wonder if any of those gentiles ever knocks on the door and demands their bread?

    In a culture based on technically following the rules, that should be OK.

    In theory, yes, they could do that, and you would have to give it to them. Usually, though, you sell it to someone who isn't an asshole.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Dragnslcr Judaism is what games end up like if the DM answers every munchkin with "sure, why not" and writes that down as part of the rulebook.



  • @Yamikuronue GodThe DM wants you to be a rules lawyer.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    @Dragnslcr Judaism is what games end up like if the DM answers every munchkin with "sure, why not" and writes that down as part of the rulebook.

    No, not really.

    @boomzilla said in Passover WTF:

    @Yamikuronue GodThe DM wants you to be a rules lawyer.

    This. Absolutely, completely, and totally this. Ever wondered why so many lawyers are Jews? Because we've had 3,000 years of practice.



  • @boomzilla said in Passover WTF:

    Well, Islam has Sharia.

    Paging @lu...actually, nah, not worth it.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    @ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:

    do vegans not allow any part of an animal at their dinners?

    Often, vegans don't allow animal products in their homes, because the goal is to reduce animal death and discomfort. You've never heard of vegans who don't wear leather?

    But they're ok with human suffering?

    THOSE NAIL CLIPPINGS WERE ONCE PART OF A HUMAN ANIMAL!!!



  • Are you supposed to eat this stuff? A bowl of coriander and another of parsley?



  • @coldandtired said in Passover WTF:

    Are you supposed to eat this stuff? A bowl of coriander and another of parsley?

    Only if you're a soulless vegan



  • @coldandtired said in Passover WTF:

    Are you supposed to eat this stuff? A bowl of coriander and another of parsley?

    There shouldn't be any bowls of garbage on the plate. The parsley gets eaten after being dipped in salt water to represent all those salty esports players who like consuming greenery.



  • @coldandtired said in Passover WTF:

    Are you supposed to eat this stuff? A bowl of coriander and another of parsley?

    Hey, I like parsley.

    I know, I know, the unpopular ideas thread is :arrows:



  • @ben_lubar said in Passover WTF:

    Is the idea of the roasted beet "exactly the same number of human people would be willing to eat this"?

    Is beet the same as beetroot? The dark red/purple stuff that stains everything it comes in contact with? Because roasted beetroot is fucking delicious.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Passover WTF:

    @Jaloopa yeah, I love reading about Judaism; it sounds like a DnD religion, but it's a real thing. It's great.

    Yes, I love these things. One of my favourite is the fence that can be put around a village (don't remember the name...) so that you can pretend that everything inside it is "inside" and therefore you can move the way you want during shabbat (when you're not supposed to leave your house). Or the light switch that randomly does something or not, but only after a random delay of a few seconds so that you can say that this is not the result of any action of your part, again to work around a limitation on not turning on (or off) any apparatus during shabbat.

    It's almost as if, somehow, getting around the intent of the law while respecting the letter is something that God wants you to do??



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    It's almost as if, somehow, getting around the intent of the law while respecting the letter is something that God wants you to do??

    That's what my comment about rules lawyering was about, namely the belief that God gave man intellect and not using it to find loopholes in laws would be wasting that gift. Or so I understand.



  • @boomzilla Still, that seems to me a bit fishy, morally speaking.

    I can understand how that works for arcane rules with no real grounding in real life (such as the various shabbat preventions that are intended to help oneself focus on religious thoughts for a day, but it doesn't really matter whether someone does it or not). But does that also apply to rules that are actually needed to make life in society possible? Like, "thou shalt not kill"?

    If you are smart enough to set up a trap that kills someone but with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one), does that mean you are OK because you didn't kill (in the same way as you didn't switch on the light) and thus obeyed God commands?



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one)

    This one. The explanations are not really well written, but you can get the idea.



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    But does that also apply to rules that are actually needed to make life in society possible? Like, "thou shalt not kill"?

    Given the apparent lack of such devices, I'd say that signs point to no. Perhaps this falls under "Using one's intellect to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."



  • @boomzilla said in Passover WTF:

    @remi said in Passover WTF:

    But does that also apply to rules that are actually needed to make life in society possible? Like, "thou shalt not kill"?

    Given the apparent lack of such devices, I'd say that signs point to no. Perhaps this falls under "Using one's intellect to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run."

    Somehow, all that thinking seems like they don't really believe in their god. "There are rules, but as long as it doesn't really matter, we can play with those..." puts back a lot of human control in divine matters. Which, I'm sure, can be argued that this is God's will and so on, but still, I find that a bit too much self-referencing...


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @remi said in Passover WTF:

    @remi said in Passover WTF:

    with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one)

    This one. The explanations are not really well written, but you can get the idea.

    I like the stoves that you can program the cook cycle the day before. They are made just to get around not being able to turn on appliances on some Jewish holidays. Since you did not make the decision to do so on that holiday, you just rule-lawyered your way to a roast or casserole.

    Just don't put meat and cheese in the same dish...



  • @RaceProUK said in Passover WTF:

    One of the linked articles:
    http://www.thekitchn.com/update-the-traditional-seder-plate-heres-how-243410

    OK, now you're just making shit up for the sake of it.

    That is also one of the traditional celebrations of Judaism, though I can't remember if it's this holiday or another (probably this one since it seems like it's picking up now). They'll ask silly questions and give silly answers, both as if they were completely serious. There's a whole subsection on the Judaism StackExchange site for it, though I can't find it right now.



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    One of my favourite is the fence that can be put around a village (don't remember the name...) so that you can pretend that everything inside it is "inside" and therefore you can move the way you want during shabbat (when you're not supposed to leave your house).

    The term you're looking for is eruv. About 25 years ago there was talk of performing the necessary rituals to make a certain neighborhood near here into one to serve a large Jewish population but I don't think they decided to go through with it. However, in that neighborhood there are automatic crosswalk signals that require pedestrians to push a button activating the "walk" cycle only six days a week; from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday there's always a walk cycle, so the devout don't have to push the button (thereby closing a circuit and thereby "kindling a fire" which is the literal reading of what is prohibited on shabbas).


  • BINNED

    @djls45 said in Passover WTF:

    They'll ask silly questions and give silly answers, both as if they were completely serious

    Coming from the guy who posted the philosophical suicide thread? :trolleybus:



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    Yes, I love these things. One of my favourite is the fence that can be put around a village (don't remember the name...) so that you can pretend that everything inside it is "inside" and therefore you can move the way you want during shabbat (when you're not supposed to leave your house).

    You're allowed to leave your house on Shabbat. The restriction that the eruv lets you dodge is carrying things from inside your home to outside your home, since carrying things is considered work.

    Or the light switch that randomly does something or not, but only after a random delay of a few seconds so that you can say that this is not the result of any action of your part, again to work around a limitation on not turning on (or off) any apparatus during shabbat.

    Yeah, that one is pretty weird, and I don't think it's accepted by many Orthodox Jews. The only widely acceptable way I know of is using timers that you set before Shabbat starts.



  • @remi said in Passover WTF:

    If you are smart enough to set up a trap that kills someone but with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one), does that mean you are OK because you didn't kill (in the same way as you didn't switch on the light) and thus obeyed God commands?

    Besides the obvious moral issue, there are also explicit laws in the Torah about being responsible for doing what you can to prevent injury or death. The first example to come to mind is that you are required to have a low wall around the roof of your home, in order to help prevent someone from accidentally falling off.



  • @Polygeekery said in Passover WTF:

    I like the stoves that you can program the cook cycle the day before. They are made just to get around not being able to turn on appliances on some Jewish holidays. Since you did not make the decision to do so on that holiday, you just rule-lawyered your way to a roast or casserole.

    That's because people are supposed to rest on Shabbat, but machines don't have that requirement. For Shabbat, though, you aren't allowed to cook anyway, so all it lets you do is keep warm the food you cook before Shabbat starts.



  • @Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:

    That's because people are supposed to rest on Shabbat, but machines don't have that requirement.

    Are you allowed to give instructions (if that does not require pressing any switches) to your robot butler on Shabbat?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @remi It's religion, it's not supposed to make sense.



  • @da-Doctah said in Passover WTF:

    @remi said in Passover WTF:

    One of my favourite is the fence that can be put around a village (don't remember the name...) so that you can pretend that everything inside it is "inside" and therefore you can move the way you want during shabbat (when you're not supposed to leave your house).

    The term you're looking for is eruv. About 25 years ago there was talk of performing the necessary rituals to make a certain neighborhood near here into one to serve a large Jewish population but I don't think they decided to go through with it. However, in that neighborhood there are automatic crosswalk signals that require pedestrians to push a button activating the "walk" cycle only six days a week; from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday there's always a walk cycle, so the devout don't have to push the button (thereby closing a circuit and thereby "kindling a fire" which is the literal reading of what is prohibited on shabbas).

    That sort of shit (automatic electric things) is everywhere in Israel: example, described to me by an Israeli colleague: lifts that go up and down (which is entirely normal, of course) but stop at every floor and open the doors themselves so that the dedicatedly religious can avoid the fires thing. And people who don't drive at the relevant times because a reciprocating-piston internal combustion engine lights small fires thousands of times a minute...

    And the legalistic wriggling is, if you believe some Jews(1), not remotely theologically sound. It might be necessary in the modern world (not touching that question, thanks), but it isn't "approved of by God" in any way. The important thing, as in most religions, is what's in your thoughts and beliefs. It's like the good works thing: if you do Good Works because they are good, that's OK, but not if you do them because you want to earn brownie points with God.

    (1) When my wife and I first started dating, she was working as a live-in nanny for a Jewish couple. She described some of the things they did to her boss (she also worked part time in the uni admin) - he was also Jewish - and he dismissed them as that kind of Jews, the ones who go through the forms, but because they are the forms, not because it is the right, godly thing to do.



  • @Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:

    @remi said in Passover WTF:

    If you are smart enough to set up a trap that kills someone but with some random delayed action switch that works around the direct action thing (like for the light switch -- I should dig for the link, that was a fun one), does that mean you are OK because you didn't kill (in the same way as you didn't switch on the light) and thus obeyed God commands?

    Besides the obvious moral issue, there are also explicit laws in the Torah about being responsible for doing what you can to prevent injury or death. The first example to come to mind is that you are required to have a low wall around the roof of your home, in order to help prevent someone from accidentally falling off.

    That one comes, they say, from the times when people would sleep on their roof because it would be too hot inside the house. Dedicated roll-in-their-sleep types want the wall so they don't roll over the edge.



  • @CarrieVS said in Passover WTF:

    @Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:

    That's because people are supposed to rest on Shabbat, but machines don't have that requirement.

    Are you allowed to give instructions (if that does not require pressing any switches) to your robot butler on Shabbat?

    I would imagine no, since you're still performing an action on Shabbat that is causing electrical work. Orthodox Jews consider 1) electricity to be equivalent to fire and 2) completing a circuit (by turning on a light switch) to be an act of creation. There are some in the Conservative movement that have gone against both of those, though, since we know that, scientifically, electricity and fire are different things, and that the work of creating the circuit was done by the electrician, not the person flipping the switch.

    A more interesting question would be giving the robot instructions before Shabbat. If it's a simple manufacturing-type robot, then I would assume it would be fine, since it wouldn't be any different from setting a timer on an oven or light switch. I would have to do a bit of research to see if there's been any discussion about how to treat a robot with an AI.



  • @Dragnslcr said in Passover WTF:

    That's because people are supposed to rest on Shabbat, but machines don't have that requirement.

    What about Jewish machines?

    From what I've read, converting to Judaism requires learning and passing a test in front of a Jewish court. IBM Watson could do that easily. Just throwing that idea out there.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.