Refusing a job without more money.



  • I recently did a job that I undercharged for.

    I've done 2 jobs at the same rate for these guys. I don't want to do a 4th one because I would affect my regular clients too much.

    So I have to tell them to fuck off, or charge more. The work is really easy ... but the approval process isn't.

    I want to tell them "I want this much for <car company>" finance calculator".



  • @lucas1 So what is the conflict? What is it you need help with? Sounds like you should ask for more money. They don't have a right to a given rate just because they received a good deal in the past. Circumstances change, and even if the work is the same, what you charge goes up.



  • @Kian said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    They don't have a right to a given rate just because they received a good deal in the past.

    I agree on this, however...

    @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I don't want to do a 4th one because I would affect my regular clients too much.

    Charging more doesn't solve this. Just say no, IMO.



  • @loopback0 I charged them about £200 a day for the work. Most of the work is £150 a day stuff if I wasn't doing other stuff.

    They said they really like me etc. I suspect that is because I am charging half as much for a .NET dev.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    They said they really like me my rates

    FTFThem



  • @TimeBandit
    you can't just say "pay me £100 more a day".



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I suspect that is because I am charging half as much for a .NET dev.

    We'd pay at least £350 a day for a junior dev.
    I don't know the industry/client you're working with but it does seem like you're under charging.

    If doing more work for this client impacts the work you do for other clients then I still think you should say no unless you can get enough out of them to cover the amount another client pays.



  • @loopback0

    Normal work from home stuff is 250. I am a probably senior in terms of js and C# when not drunk. But I rather get the 5k a month when only working 4 out of 5 days.

    The Agency is £200 a day and it was part time.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    you can't just say "pay me £100 more a day".

    You said you're charging half the going rate at $200, so $100 more just puts you at 3/4ths the going rate. Still a good deal for them. And sure you can. If you feel the need to explain, you can tell them you are really busy these days and even considering taking the job is already a concession on your part. If you don't want to be the one to say no, let them decide if getting the work done by you at a higher rate is better than the risk of hiring someone else. Don force them to go for another person because you felt bad about charging them more. People will generally prefer to pay more for someone they know do good work than risk hiring a dud.

    That is, assuming you feel you can manage the workload. If you don't feel comfortable taking the extra work, just tell them no.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    @TimeBandit
    you can't just say "pay me £100 more a day".

    Eh...you can. They may not want to pay it, but you're not in business for them. You're explicitly not hurting for business. If they decide not to pay your new rate, that's better than passing on this one right now. They may realize you're worth it when they still can't find anything better out there. Also that puts them in the driver seat, such that you're not rejecting them, which is probably more positive for future business.



  • @Kian They are taking the piss. But I want the cash flow.



  • @boomzilla I know I am not savvy with business.

    But my CC and Loans are paid off.



  • @boomzilla I only have them and 3-4 other clients

    So I can't do much.



  • @lucas1 Sure, but that doesn't mean you can't improve on what you have, which is what people here are trying to help you with.



  • @boomzilla I am not being a dick. I appreciate the help.

    But I can't earn much more as freelance as a web dev.



  • @lucas1 Would doing another job for this client significantly affect the work you're doing for your other clients? Would it risk one of them getting pissed off and stopping sending work your way?



  • @loopback0 It is reworking a piece of crap I've been given to fix.

    I think that if I didn't do a 11pm yesterday deployment I would have been sacked.

    I am not normally this close to the edge but I can't work harder. The times I've blown out on here talking shit. Is me having a day off.

    I can't work harder without me blowing out.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    but I can't work harder.

    @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I can't work harder without me blowing out.

    Then tell them to do one.



  • @loopback0 I like them. I don't think they are dickheads.



  • @loopback0 You can't just tell them you are done if you want repeat money



  • @lucas1 You can if that repeat money means you burn yourself out. Some times you need to prioritise the life part of the work-life balance. Even if they aren't dickheads.

    There's a reason I'm not a contractor and that I stopped doing several-thousand-pounds-worth of overtime.



  • Ultimately though - you know you best, and you know the clients best. What's your gut telling you?



  • @loopback0 my gut it telling me that you are lying.



  • @lucas1 Ok. Someone else can try to help you then.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    @loopback0 You can't just tell them you are done if you want repeat money

    Well, if you don't want to fire them as clients, you don't want to charge them extra and risk them going elsewhere, and you don't want to burn out, could you perhaps push dates around? Say it will take longer. You don't charge extra, but you may do less work each day and charge for the hours you did work. That way you don't risk losing the bigger clients, and you can justify the lower rate with a lower assigned priority.



  • Sounds like you're not managing this contracting thing very well. Maybe you should just get employed for real, and take a little break from stress for a few years.



  • This post is deleted!


  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    They said they really like me etc.

    Fake news.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I am not being a dick.

    #FakeNews



  • @lucas1

    @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I recently did a job that I undercharged for.

    I've done 2 jobs at the same rate for these guys. I don't want to do a 4th one because I would affect my regular clients too much.

    So I have to tell them to fuck off, or charge more. The work is really easy ... but the approval process isn't.

    I want to tell them "I want this much for <car company>" finance calculator".

    "My situation has changed and my time is more valuable now. I'd love to work with you again but my rates have increased from X to Y" paraphrased in some sort.

    You have more experience. You have other commitments. You have a good track record with them. You would love to keep working with them.

    At work... we don't say "No" to clients... we price them higher than we think they'll accept. Either there is acceptance... negotiation... or we don't do work that isn't worth our time.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    I charged them about £200 a day for the work

    That's WAY too low.

    I charge about $45 an hour, but that's because I have a primary job. If I was full time consultant, I'd charge $65/hr min.

    And I charge based on estimates, not days.



  • @WernerCD said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    At work... we don't say "No" to clients... we price them higher than we think they'll accept. Either there is acceptance... negotiation... or we don't do work that isn't worth our time.

    There's always a price I'm willing to accept.

    You want me to dig a ditch, great, that'll be $150 an hour.

    You want me to dig a ditch next day? Prices went up. $250 an hour.

    A week later, I've subcontracted someone, and now I have a ditch digging business.



  • @xaade You have a ditch digging business? Not a programming outsourcing business? :)



  • @lucas1 From the other side oft the counter, business value a contractor / supplier that can deliver in a timely and professional manner.

    They know they can't have good, fast and cheap at the same time.

    They know that a good professional may not be available on-call.

    So it is perfectly acceptable to say 'Guys, I have more offers that I can handle, at $Y day. I liked to work with you, so I can take the job, but it would cost $Y day [and I can't start with that till DD-MM]

    If you know the market and think you are underpaid, don't hesitate to ask for more.

    Most probably they would accept.

    If not, you aren't burning bridges, they can return after trying some cheaper contractor, and you are free to take another contract at a price that feels right for you.

    I will add that something looks somehow out of focus here: you have other regular clients, and, quoting you

    I think that if I didn't do a 11pm yesterday deployment I would have been sacked.
    I am not normally this close to the edge but I can't work harder. The times I've blown out on here talking shit. Is me having a day off.
    I can't work harder without me blowing out.

    That seems a demanding job.
    If It is enough regular and well paid, maybe you should reject the easy but underpaid (push big the DD-MM, stay with your desired $Y, to let a door open).
    If is not, you have bigger problems.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    you can't just say "pay me £100 more a day".

    No. So you don't say that. What you say is "I'm happy to take on this job at £400 per day." Then you let them negotiate you down to £300.

    Unless you have explicitly told them that you will forever charge them £200, they have no reasonable basis on which to assume that.



  • @lucas1 said in Refusing a job without more money.:

    @boomzilla I am not being a dick. I appreciate the help.

    But I can't earn much more as freelance as a web dev.

    When I worked as freelance dev back when I was a student, in some sense my clients bid for my time.

    Although I'll fix the schedule a month earlier, if someone offer to pay me more before the schedule is fixed, I'll decline the original job and explicitly mention that someone offered a better price. If their job is urgent they'll pay more. If not they'll try find another one to do the job.

    When you work underpaid you should try find another customer that offers better, and if you still want to work for them, you can use the new offer as chips to negotiate a higher pay.

    That's how freelance business works. The one have more choice have better negotiating power. If you don't hold enough chips when go negotiating new job, your client will take a cut of what would originally be your profit.

    Much like other business deals, the one who less care about making the deal can lead the deal.



  • ...



  • @xaade I am a web dev there are about 1000+ of me in London.



  • @lucas1 I'm not a web dev, and I charged much less. I picked up what Javascript I could and put something together. I'm sure a real shop could have done way better, but they would have paid 10x more.



  • Fuck I was drunk when I posted this. Thanks for all the honest replies ... including you @loopback0 (sorry I was being a cock, I knew you were being decent).

    I meant pretty much everything but I am quite loyal. I will have to read through all of this.

    Thanks for all the replies btw.


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