Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student
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WTF? The student is 17. The age of consent in texas is 17. Am I missing something?
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Often there's extra rules about people being in a position of power (like a teacher, who could blackmail a student into sex for grades) not being able to sleep with the people they have power over. I don't know Texas law very well though.
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@Yamikuronue said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Often there's extra rules about people being in a position of power (like a teacher, who could blackmail a student into sex for grades) not being able to sleep with the people they have power over. I don't know Texas law very well though.
I mean I get that it's probably unethical and she can lose her job, but arrested?
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@dangeRuss Looks like that's specifically illegal: http://www.sharpcriminalattorney.com/practice-areas/improper-relationships-educators-students/
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@Yamikuronue Ok, thanks that makes sense now.
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@Yamikuronue said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@dangeRuss Looks like that's specifically illegal: http://www.sharpcriminalattorney.com/practice-areas/improper-relationships-educators-students/
It does seem very broad though. "The law may pertain to any student that is enrolled in the same school district as the educator or is a participant in any activity sponsored by a public or private school or school district." And criminal penalties for an ethical violation, too.
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@Khudzlin
Yup, this law seems to be about morals only. If at least the student being under 18 was a requirement for punishment, it would make a lot more sense. But it's declaring consensual relationships between adults illegal under certain circumstances.
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@asdf Yeah, this is in the same vein as laws against prostitution or against "sodomy" (quotes necessary because of how broad the legal definitions can be).
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@Khudzlin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@asdf Yeah, this is in the same vein as laws against prostitution or against "sodomy" (quotes necessary because of how broad the legal definitions can be).
Yea I find it very hypocritical how the motto of Virginia "Virginia is for lovers" clashes with the fact that premarital sex and sodomy is (or at least pretty recently was) illegal in Virginia.
Looks like the premarital sex one was repealed fairly recently:
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@dangeRuss said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Khudzlin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@asdf Yeah, this is in the same vein as laws against prostitution or against "sodomy" (quotes necessary because of how broad the legal definitions can be).
Yea I find it very hypocritical how the motto of Virginia "Virginia is for lovers" clashes with the fact that premarital sex and sodomy is (or at least pretty recently was) illegal in Virginia.
There's a lot of archaic laws on the books that are no longer enforced. Technically where I live, you're not allowed to wear shorts while on church grounds, or in a cemetery. Nobody's been arrested for that since maybe 1877.
AFAIK there are similar laws (or perhaps license requirements) prohibiting romantic relationships between lawyers and clients regardless of age, and I think there are similar rules between therapists and clients, too. (inb4 Sean Connery reference).
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@dangeRuss said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Yea I find it very hypocritical how the motto of Virginia "Virginia is for lovers" clashes with the fact that premarital sex and sodomy is (or at least pretty recently was) illegal in Virginia.
There's nothing hypocritical about it. Just for a different kind of lover.
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@boomzilla said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@dangeRuss said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Yea I find it very hypocritical how the motto of Virginia "Virginia is for lovers" clashes with the fact that premarital sex and sodomy is (or at least pretty recently was) illegal in Virginia.
There's nothing hypocritical about it. Just for a different kind of lover.
Technically lovers implies unmarried. Cuz marriage takes all the love out of a relationship.
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I knew this guy was sleazy.
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@dangeRuss said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Lockhart teacher
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@The_Quiet_One said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
There's a lot of archaic laws on the books that are no longer enforced.
Then maybe delete them? @fbmac and libertarians can be right, sometimes.
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@aliceif said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Then maybe delete them? @fbmac and libertarians can be right, sometimes.
I'm all for it. It's just that doing so takes up a lot of time in hearings when there's bigger issues at hand that actually make a difference. Even if everyone unanimously agrees to repeal it, there's still time better spent on more pressing laws.
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@antiquarian I think libertarians agree with me that water is wet.
I kid, it's obvious that water can't itself be wet
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@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@aliceif Whenever @fbmac and libertarians agree on an issue,
the otherboth sidesis just plain wrongare probably really, really weird.
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@Maciejasjmj said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I knew this guy was sleazy.
What's your beef with Wallander?!
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@The_Quiet_One said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I'm all for it. It's just that doing so takes up a lot of time in hearings when there's bigger issues at hand that actually make a difference. Even if everyone unanimously agrees to repeal it, there's still time better spent on more pressing laws.
Um, actually, their time is almost guaranteed better spent not trying to do other stuff that they think is important. How do you think those stinkers got on the books in the first place?
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I checked out most of her photos online earlier. :D
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@fbmac said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
it's obvious that water can't itself be wet
But can it wet itself?
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@fbmac I think the problem is mate that she was a bit wet when she shouldn't have been.
However locking people her up because she "violated trust" but if he dropped out of school they could have screwed and not faced anything.
Firing and not being allowed into the profession is sensible. Jail time is not.
A 17 year old guy knows what he wants to do with his dick.
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@dangeRuss said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Yamikuronue Ok, thanks that makes sense now.
No. It still doesn't make sense. Why is that expressly illegal?
Sure, if she was blackmailing the student in to sex, or coercing him in some way, that would make sense.
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@Polygeekery it makes sense because the law was written to make sure that male teachers couldn't seduce female students, not the other way around.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Why is that expressly illegal?
Probably because of how it violates:
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@boomzilla crazy parents?
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
, or coercing him in some way, that would make sense.
In situations where one person is an authority over another, the law assumes that coercion exists, e.g., a teacher can use coercion to force the student to do things (in this case, sex).
And, the whole basis of "age of consent" is the idea that a person under a certain age is not capable of consenting to things.
Whether or not any of this is right or makes any sense is an entirely different subject.
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@El_Heffe said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
In situations where one person is an authority over another, the law assumes that coercion exists
No it doesn't.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
No it doesn't.
There's a precedent: we throw drunk (as in 0.04%, not just blind drunk at 0.2%) drivers in jail even if they haven't hurt anyone yet.
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@antiquarian I fail to see how that is a precedent for "authority = coercion".
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@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@El_Heffe said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
In situations where one person is an authority over another, the law assumes that coercion exists
No it doesn't.
The law assumes that a person in a position of authority will use coercion. That's the whole point of specifically outlawing student-teacher relationships.
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@El_Heffe said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
The law assumes that a person in a position of authority will use coercion.
I don't even think that the law ("the law", in the generic) assumes that. This law in particular may. But that is still a long way from:
@El_Heffe said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
the law assumes that coercion exists
I mean, of course it exists. But not necessarily in these contexts. It may, but it is not necessarily so.
Keep in mind that I do agree that she should be fired. And, if evidence exists that she coerced the student in to a sexual relationship that would constitute some manner of sexual exploitation or assault that is bound to be illegal under other laws.
But, these laws, as pointed out earlier, would even make sexual contact among adults illegal if one is teacher and the other is student. Conflict of interest? Of course. Immoral? Possibly.
But it should not be illegal if no other laws are broken.
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@fbmac said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I kid, it's obvious that water can't itself be wet
Sure it can. Freeze it. Apply liquid water to it. Tada! Wet water.
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@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
That's pretty much the reason behind banning driving with a BAC above some level, conspiracy to commit x, attempted y, age of consent, and other similar laws: preventing other crimes by banning things judged very likely to lead directly to, or be a result of, such crimes.
A drunk driver could get home safely.
A conspiracy could fall apart at the last minute.
An attempted robbery could be successfully rebuffed with no damage done.
A teen may well have consented just as meaningfully and maturely as an adult to intercourse.But then they might not. And in some circumstances it may be useful to have pre-crime punishments to reduce post-crime headaches and heartbreaks.
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@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
That's pretty much the reason behind banning driving with a BAC above some level, conspiracy to commit x, attempted y, age of consent, and other similar laws: preventing other crimes by banning things judged very likely to lead directly to, or be a result of, such crimes.
A drunk driver could get home safely.
A conspiracy could fall apart at the last minute.
An attempted robbery could be successfully rebuffed with no damage done.
A teen may well have consented just as meaningfully and maturely as an adult to intercourse.But then they might not. And in some circumstances it may be useful to have pre-crime punishments to reduce post-crime headaches and heartbreaks.
Yes, but in this case the student was above the age of consent for that state. So that law was not run afoul of.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
It feels more like the "why is statutory rape considered rape if both parties were willing" situation - just by having the authority it's implicitly being used, and even if you don't outright say "you better lick that pussy if you want good grades" the student might be intimidated into not rejecting your advances for fear of retaliation.
This is of course a very debatable point, but it's not just a "thoughtcrime" thing.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
That's pretty much the reason behind banning driving with a BAC above some level, conspiracy to commit x, attempted y, age of consent, and other similar laws: preventing other crimes by banning things judged very likely to lead directly to, or be a result of, such crimes.
A drunk driver could get home safely.
A conspiracy could fall apart at the last minute.
An attempted robbery could be successfully rebuffed with no damage done.
A teen may well have consented just as meaningfully and maturely as an adult to intercourse.But then they might not. And in some circumstances it may be useful to have pre-crime punishments to reduce post-crime headaches and heartbreaks.
Yes, but in this case the student was above the age of consent for that state. So that law was not run afoul of.
Age of consent is an element of some pre(sumptive)-crimes, not the target crime (which is coerced sex / rape), which does seem to be (one of?) the crime(s) this is intended to be a pre(sumptive)-crime for.
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@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@antiquarian said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Polygeekery My theory is it's there to prevent coercion, instead of assuming it's there.
Gotcha. Pre-crime punishments. The mark of a true authoritarian society.
That's pretty much the reason behind banning driving with a BAC above some level, conspiracy to commit x, attempted y, age of consent, and other similar laws: preventing other crimes by banning things judged very likely to lead directly to, or be a result of, such crimes.
A drunk driver could get home safely.
A conspiracy could fall apart at the last minute.
An attempted robbery could be successfully rebuffed with no damage done.
A teen may well have consented just as meaningfully and maturely as an adult to intercourse.But then they might not. And in some circumstances it may be useful to have pre-crime punishments to reduce post-crime headaches and heartbreaks.
Yes, but in this case the student was above the age of consent for that state. So that law was not run afoul of.
Age of consent is an element of some pre(sumptive)-crimes, not the target crime (which is coerced sex / rape), which does seem to be (one of?) the crime(s) this is intended to be a pre(sumptive)-crime for.
It is 10pm and I have had too many drinks to be able to absorb all of those parentheticals and digest them. Though I am pretty sure I still think the law is stupid. ;)
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Though I am pretty sure I still think the law is stupid.
I'm not sure I disagree with you, based on what I've read of it. I'm just taking a ride on the you started.
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@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I'm just taking a ride on the you started.
Ride it to the end, there are hookers and booze at the last stop.
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@Polygeekery said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
Ride it to the end, there are hookers and booze at the last stop.
Paging @Lorne-Kates
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@Dreikin said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
A teen may well have consented just as meaningfully and maturely as an adult to intercourse.
So that makes age of consent laws thoughtcrime? No... that makes about as much sense as calling laws against underage drinking "thoughtcrime" because a teen may well have just as much ability to drink responsibly and maturely as an adult has.
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@kt_ said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Maciejasjmj said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I knew this guy was sleazy.
What's your beef with Wallander?!
Why would you have beef with
?
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@Gurth said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@kt_ said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Maciejasjmj said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I knew this guy was sleazy.
What's your beef with Wallander?!
Why would you have beef with
?
Why would you have a beef with any of those two?
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@kt_ said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Gurth said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@kt_ said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
@Maciejasjmj said in Lockhart teacher Sarah Fowlkes arrested for alleged improper relationship with student:
I knew this guy was sleazy.
What's your beef with Wallander?!
Why would you have beef with
?
Why would you have a beef with any of those two?
Because you're hungry and they're paying?
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@Dreikin Depends on the beef