Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @accalia said in The Official Status Thread:

    Just cause they didn't stop him then doesn't mean he got awau scotch free

    Not sure how it is where you live, but around here, good luck proving I was driving that car.

    I think we've been over this before, but in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    Claiming a bad memory or "I don't know" might work in a purely civil proceeding (though then you'll probably have to document each and every trip with your car afterwards), but won't wash if it's more serious :)



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    In other word, in Germany, you are guilty until proven innocent ?
    :wtf:



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    In other word, in Germany, you are guilty until proven innocent ?
    :wtf:

    No, you're held responsible for your car. Similar to how parents are responsible for what their children are doing.

    Also, this is where "reasonable doubt" comes into play.



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    No, you're held responsible for your car. Similar to how parents are responsible for what their children are doing.

    What if I borrow your sledgehammer and kill someone with it. Are you responsible for your sledgehammer ?



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    No, you're held responsible for your car. Similar to how parents are responsible for what their children are doing.

    What if I borrow your sledgehammer and kill someone with it. Are you responsible for your sledgehammer ?

    Well, I'm pretty sure that if the sledgehammer has my name on it, I'll have to face some very tough questions from the police. And, strangely enough, I'll also have to prove that I wasn't the one wielding the sledgehammer.



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    Works the same in Australia. That would appear to be the entire point of putting number plates on cars.



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    No, you're held responsible for your car. Similar to how parents are responsible for what their children are doing.

    What if I borrow your sledgehammer and kill someone with it. Are you responsible for your sledgehammer ?

    Well, I'm pretty sure that if the sledgehammer has my name on it, I'll have to face some very tough questions from the police.

    In Canada, they have to prove that I was the one wielding the sledgehammer, beyond a reasonable doubt.



  • @flabdablet said in The Official Status Thread:

    That would appear to be the entire point of putting number plates on cars.

    No, the entire point is to know who owns the car, not who's driving it.



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    No, you're held responsible for your car. Similar to how parents are responsible for what their children are doing.

    What if I borrow your sledgehammer and kill someone with it. Are you responsible for your sledgehammer ?

    Well, I'm pretty sure that if the sledgehammer has my name on it, I'll have to face some very tough questions from the police.

    In Canada, they have to prove that I was the one wielding the sledgehammer, beyond a reasonable doubt.

    You're currently mixing civil and criminal law cases, by the way. A very common mistake.

    You better educate yourself on that - or you'll be in a lot of pain if you try that approach in a civil proceeding.



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    You're currently mixing civil and criminal law cases, by the way. A very common mistake.
    You better educate yourself on that - or you'll be in a lot of pain if you try that approach in a civil proceeding.

    Not sure what you mean here. I guess Canadian laws and German laws are very different.



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    You're currently mixing civil and criminal law cases, by the way. A very common mistake.
    You better educate yourself on that - or you'll be in a lot of pain if you try that approach in a civil proceeding.

    Not sure what you mean here. I guess Canadian laws and German laws are very different.

    A civil case (as in: simple traffic violations, collections, contract issues) has a lower degree of "requiring evidence" than criminal cases. That's pretty much the case in any kind of justice system.

    Also: Do you try this approach on traffic tickets? "I didn't drive the car!" Do you expect to get very far with that?


  • SockDev

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    "I didn't drive the car!" Do you expect to get very far with that?

    Worked for Chris Huhne.

    For a while, anyway.

    Yes, I know, UK, different rules and all that.



  • Also: Do you try this approach on traffic tickets? "I didn't drive the car!" Do you expect to get very far with that?

    Yes, "I wasn't driving the car at that time" is a valid defence. Unless there is a cop that pulled me over and can witness that indeed, I was the one driving the car.

    As an example:

    Maybe you should educate yourself on the Canadian justice system.



  • @TimeBandit Sorry, mistyped. I meant parking violations.


  • mod

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    You're currently mixing civil and criminal law cases, by the way. A very common mistake.
    You better educate yourself on that - or you'll be in a lot of pain if you try that approach in a civil proceeding.

    Not sure what you mean here. I guess Canadian laws and German laws are very different.

    A civil case (as in: simple traffic violations, collections, contract issues) has a lower degree of "requiring evidence" than criminal cases. That's pretty much the case in any kind of justice system.

    Also: Do you try this approach on traffic tickets? "I didn't drive the car!" Do you expect to get very far with that?

    Worked well for one guy here in the Phoenix area.

    It wasn't until the police conducted surveillance on him and got photos of him putting the mask on before driving that they were able to get a judge to enforce the tickets. Up until then, he was getting out of the tickets by simply stating that they could not prove he was the person driving.



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit Sorry, mistyped. I meant parking violations.

    Parking violations are different. Nobody's driving the car at that time. The owner is responsible for it.



  • @abarker Then you probably need to overhaul the system if it allows such asshats to drive. The Swiss have the right idea: If you cross a certain threshold, your car is impounded and put into an auction.



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit Sorry, mistyped. I meant parking violations.

    Parking violations are different. Nobody's driving the car at that time. The owner is responsible for it.

    Riiiight. But what if you weren't the one parking the car?



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    But what if you weren't the one parking the car?

    Look, it's the same thing if the car's plate are not valid. The owner of the car is responsible of it, so he get the ticket.

    Speeding with the car is the same thing as shooting someone with a gun: the one doing it is responsible.


  • SockDev

    @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    so he get the ticket

    What if a woman owns it? :shopping_cart:



  • @RaceProUK said in The Official Status Thread:

    @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    so he get the ticket

    What if a woman owns it? :shopping_cart:

    She gives it to her man. The man is always the one at fault anyway :trollface:



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    But what if you weren't the one parking the car?

    Look, it's the same thing if the car's plate are not valid. The owner of the car is responsible of it, so he get the ticket.

    Speeding with the car is the same thing as shooting someone with a gun: the one doing it is responsible.

    So, in one case he's responsible. In the other he magically isn't. Very consistent and highly logical.

    And please drop the hyperbole - I'll be the first one to say that speeding is inherently dangerous. But equating speeding to "shooting someone with a gun"... Seriously?



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    I think we've been over this before, but in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    Claiming a bad memory or "I don't know" might work in a purely civil proceeding (though then you'll probably have to document each and every trip with your car afterwards), but won't wash if it's more serious :)

    And if the car was stolen?



  • @anotherusername said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    I think we've been over this before, but in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car. And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    Claiming a bad memory or "I don't know" might work in a purely civil proceeding (though then you'll probably have to document each and every trip with your car afterwards), but won't wash if it's more serious :)

    And if the car was stolen?

    If you report it as stolen then you're pretty much in the clear (unless it's a criminal case, of course, and someone was hurt/killed). Of course, if it then turns up and wasn't actually stolen you're now in a lot more hot water than before.

    Naturally, if you report it as stolen only by the time you get the ticket (which takes weeks) then you'll only mark yourself for some special treatment :)



  • @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    So, in one case he's responsible. In the other he magically isn't. Very consistent and highly logical.

    If it's not my car, I can't renew the plates on it, so I can't be held responsible.

    Hey, if I borrow your car and run over pedestrians with it, are you responsible according to German laws ?

    And please drop the hyperbole - I'll be the first one to say that speeding is inherently dangerous. But equating speeding to "shooting someone with a gun"... Seriously?

    A speeding car can kill people. What's wrong with my analogy ?



  • Thanks @abarker !



  • @TimeBandit said in The Official Status Thread:

    @Rhywden said in The Official Status Thread:

    So, in one case he's responsible. In the other he magically isn't. Very consistent and highly logical.

    If it's not my car, I can't renew the plates on it, so I can't be held responsible.

    Hey, if I borrow your car and run over pedestrians with it, are you responsible according to German laws ?

    That's a criminal case and treated very differently. The same way it would be treated if someone borrowed your gun and then went on a killing spree with it.

    And please drop the hyperbole - I'll be the first one to say that speeding is inherently dangerous. But equating speeding to "shooting someone with a gun"... Seriously?

    A speeding car can kill people. What's wrong with my analogy ?

    The word "can". Look at what you wrote again.


  • mod


  • mod

    @Rhywden Come on, keep it in the new thread!



  • @Rhywden I agree with the car thing. The analogy may not be perfect, but a car is a deadly weapon and can be abused. While I speed all the time (about 15MPH over), if you were going something like twice the speed limit, you probably get charged with reckless driving in addition to a speeding ticket, and if you end up injuring/killing someone, I'm sure the charges would be more serious.



  • @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    That's a criminal case and treated very differently

    FYI, here in Quebec, driving while drunk is a criminal offense and you'll have a criminal record if found guilty.

    Different countries = different laws



  • @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    I'll also have to prove that I wasn't the one wielding the sledgehammer.

    That's where it's fucked up. But I'm betting this isn't the case, since it's a murder trial.

    However, I still see holes in this approach. You can't be responsible for a stolen car, and you can't be responsible for NOT KNOWING your car is stolen. Imagine if you park your car at the company parking lot, you drive a company car out to the boondocks to work on some radio tower. Someone steals your car. You have to hope that your company has cameras?

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    If you cross a certain threshold, your car is impounded and put into an auction.

    This makes sense.
    At that point you can file a civil lawsuit with the thief.
    It sucks for people that never find the thief, but such is life.

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    Naturally, if you report it as stolen only by the time you get the ticket (which takes weeks)

    I was traveling abroad.



  • @Rhywden

    I'm pretty sure your country would charge the driver for a speeding ticket if the cop pulled over the driver and knows exactly who it is, having their license.

    I would hope that the only time it falls to the owner is when the driver's ID wasn't taken, like with cameras and parking violations.


  • :belt_onion:

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    What if the car was in bailment to a business where the bailor cannot identify the individual employees/contractors?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Greybeard said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    What if the car was in bailment to a business where the bailor cannot identify the individual employees/contractors?

    Then either the bailor or the business gets to pay the fine as they can't identify a more appropriate legal entity to do so. And then if it keeps happening, they get to investigate which asshat on their staff is costing them money for no good reason…


  • SockDev

    But what if the car was actually a giant space robot?



  • @xaade said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    I still see holes in this approach. You can't be responsible for a stolen car, and you can't be responsible for NOT KNOWING your car is stolen. Imagine if you park your car at the company parking lot, you drive a company car out to the boondocks to work on some radio tower. Someone steals your car. You have to hope that your company has cameras?

    In which case you report the car as stolen when you come back to the company and discover the theft. You have an alibi for any crimes that may be committed using the car during the time you were away, which will (hopefully) be supported by the company.

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    Naturally, if you report it as stolen only by the time you get the ticket (which takes weeks)

    I was traveling abroad.

    Same as above: you’re likely to have evidence that you were abroad (plane tickets, hotel bookings, cash withdrawals using your bank card, etc.) and so have an alibi that will put you beyond suspicion.



  • @xaade said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    However, I still see holes in this approach. You can't be responsible for a stolen car, and you can't be responsible for NOT KNOWING your car is stolen.

    Strangely enough, I distinctly seem to remember saying to @anotherusername that you can indeed report your car as stolen. It just shouldn't be two weeks after the fact. And the car also shouldn't turn out to be not-stolen at a later time.



  • @dkf said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    @Greybeard said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    What if the car was in bailment to a business where the bailor cannot identify the individual employees/contractors?

    Then either the bailor or the business gets to pay the fine as they can't identify a more appropriate legal entity to do so. And then if it keeps happening, they get to investigate which asshat on their staff is costing them money for no good reason…

    They may also have to keep a log detailing who drove the car and when. Quite a number of companies may already do so due to tax reasons.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    I think we've been over this before, but in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car.

    Well, nope. You're misrepresenting the German law here. Claiming "I didn't drive and I don't know who did" does work. The police will then have to come to your house to verify you are the person on the photo the camera took. Which, more often than not, they're too lazy to do.

    And also has to name the person who was driving the car if he wasn't the driver at the time.

    You don't, unless you pull that stunt frequently enough that they require you to document drivers in the future. Only then you'll have a legal responsibility to be able to name the driver.



  • @asdf said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    I think we've been over this before, but in Germany such summons and tickets go to the holder of the car. Who then has to prove that he wasn't driving the car.

    Well, nope. You're misrepresenting the German law here. Claiming "I didn't drive and I don't know who did" does work. The police will then have to come to your house to verify you are the person on the photo the camera took. Which, more often then not, they're too lazy to do.

    I personally know someone who after trying to pull that excuse from then on had to commit every drive he or someone else took to a log (i.e. a Fahrtenbuch). After the first incident, mind. I really wouldn't rely on doing that.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    I personally know someone who after trying to pull that excuse from then on had to commit every drive he or someone else took to a log (i.e. a Fahrtenbuch).

    They are allowed to demand that, but it doesn't always happen. I personally know another case in which they didn't even bother responding after the owner denied having been the driver. This was a speeding ticket for being 30 kph too fast in a construction zone, so nothing minor.



  • @asdf Which is kind of what I wrote in the first place.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden
    Nope, your OP and the following posts made it sound like the burden of proof was on the owner of the car. Which is also what other people commented on.

    By default, this is not the case, not even in severe cases.



  • @asdf said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    @Rhywden
    Nope, your OP and the following posts made it sound like the burden of proof was on the owner of the car. Which is also what other people commented on.

    By default, this is not the case, not even in severe cases.

    If they decide to swing the hammer on you then the burden of proof is definitely on you. It depends on how vindictive they're feeling and as such, you really should not rely on them to let it slide by.

    You're confusing "decided not to follow up" with "has no legal recourse".


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    If they decide to swing the hammer on you then the burden of proof is definitely on you.

    You seem to be misunderstanding legal concepts here. In practice, it's easy for them to prove you were driving the car if they really want to, but that doesn't switch the burden of proof in any way. At least initially (-> Fahrtenbuch).

    We've had a similar argument before, though, and since I don't feel like trying to explain legal principles to you yet again, I'll simply stop arguing now.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @asdf said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    At least initially (-> Fahrtenbuch).

    Oh, BTW: I only wrote this because I'm not entirely sure and cannot find a reliable source right now, but I strongly suspect that even after you were ordered to document drivers, the burden of proof is still on the authorities. So they can punish you for not respecting the order if they could not determine the driver during a period in which you were required to maintain documentation, but they cannot punish you for something you may not have done yourself.



  • @asdf Civil case law against criminal case law.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    Civil case law against criminal case law.

    For tickets, neither applies, since most "offenses" you can commit while driving a car are considered infractions, not criminal offenses.

    And if you're actually suspected to have committed a criminal offense (which requires a lot of effort as a driver), then the burden of proof is most definitely not on you, ever.



  • @asdf said in Vehicle Responsibility: Here's Your Ticket:

    And if you're actually suspected to have committed a criminal offense (which requires a lot of effort as a driver), then the burden of proof is most definitely not on you, ever.

    Yes, of course, that's why no one ever had to provide an alibi. :rolleyes:


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.