Scandals in Communist Frenchystan



  • So, in case anyone's getting fed up with America's new performing monkey, just a reminder that we have our own performing monkeys over here in the old world too.

    A bit of background.

    France has a presidential election coming up in May. The major players are "Les Républicains" or 'LR', the "Partie Socialiste" or 'PS', the "Front National" or 'FN', "Le France Insoumise" or 'LFI' and "En Marche" or 'EM'.

    There have been primaries in both major parties.

    The PS have just finished theirs, which ended up as a battle between the ex prime minister Manuel Valls, who had pulled the party hard to the right, and Benoît Hamon, who is a more traditional, if very moderate, socialist. The incumbent president, François Hollande, had decided not to stand. Hamon won 59%-41%.

    The LR primary ended up with François Fillon, the party's "Mr Clean", beating Alain Juppé 66%-34%. Fillon is on the right wing of the right wing, meaning he'd probably be classed as a dangerous godless commie in the US. He's also religious, and his god-bothering has ruffled a few feathers.

    The FN, led by the unlovely Mme. Le Pen, needs little introduction.

    LFI are led by Jean-Luc Mélenchon, and represent the biggest bit of the radical left. They don't really stand much of a chance, but could be kingmakers.

    EM, an new party led (and pretty much solely represented) by Emmanuel Macron, are a bit of a wildcard. Macron was minister for the economy in Hollande's government, so nominally socialist, but his economic policies are best described as Thatcherite. They stand a decent chance of taking a lot of votes from everyone as a "new broom", despite Macron being firmly part of the establishment. If any UK readers are old enough to remember the SDP, it's basically that with a "Gang of One". And yes, the letters "EM" are also the initials of Emmanuel Macron. Probably not a coincidence.

    So. What's happening?

    The PS is imploding (as socialist parties are wont) as the right wingers / reformers decide that they will only accept the electors' opinion if it concurs with their own. See also UK's Labour party.

    LR's "Mr Clean", Fillon, appears to have paid his wife nearly a million euros for doing jobs she never did, and has denied doing on video. He's also employed his children as legal advisors, which would have been OK were they not unqualified law students at the time. Legal investigation is taking place, Fillon (who previously said that, were he to be found guilty of any wrongdoing, he would stand down) is likely to be forced to jump, and LR are imploding. Juppé has stated that he's not interested in taking Fillon's place as a stand-in. Shame, really, as he was a better choice all round. God knows who we'll get as a replacement, let's hope it's not Sarkozy.

    Curiously, Mme Le Pen, never one to shy from the spotlight, is being very quiet about this. Could it be that she's embroiled in her very own scandal? It could indeed. A third of a million paid by the EU to people supposedly working for her in Brussels. People who've never been to Brussels, but instead worked for the FN in France. Woops.

    There's also a nice little split in the FN ranks between those who favour Marine's approach, which is probably best described as nazism hidden behind modern populism, and her father Jean-Marie's approach (now used by her niece, Marion Marechal-Le Pen), i.e. just plain old nazism.



  • @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    A third of a million paid by the EU to people supposedly working for her in Brussels. People who've never been to Brussels, but instead worked for the FN in France. Woops.

    It's not only that she used those funds incorrectly she refused to pay them back after the European Parliament asked them back. Now they are going to reduce her pay to compensate.



  • @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    He's also employed his children as legal advisors, which would have been OK were they not unqualified law students at the time. Legal investigation is taking place

    Are his children conducting those investigations?


  • area_deu

    I feel so sorry for France. I had hoped both Germany and France could get their shit together in both their soon-ish elections as they are the center around which the EU gravitates and as it seems at the moment the EU will never do anything usefull unless both Germany and France have shit straight at the same time and want to do something together.

    At least some good news from Germany: The moderate socialists (SPD) got their shit together and actually nominated someone who seems like a good person and is seen as trustworthy, Martin Schulz. Everyone thought the party leadership would just try to push their leader Sigmar Gabriel even though he is not very popular and seen as part of the party establishment that pushed the party to the right and made it basically the same party as the conservatives, who pushed to the left. But in a move that was actually unexpected to me he stepped down and left it to someone who actually has a chance to improve their results.

    There are also the greens, who are in the peculiar position of having an increasing number of social-conservative who are also environmentalists in their party, so they too are dragged to the middle like seemingly everyone else, while also being more left than the socialists because those moved to the right.

    Then there is the "Die Linke" (literally "the left") which seems to be the only serious left-leftwing party left and might just be able to get huge results were it not for the fact that a lot of people still distrust them because one of the consitutent parties that merged to found this one was the remnant of THE ONE party from the communist german one party state (though to be honest that remnant and what remains of it today were mostly the moderates and reformers and everyone that had a serious hand in the oppresion machine has zero chance of actually getting any positions throught this party and has left for actual (irrelavant) communist parties by now)

    Even though there is a socialist majority in the parlament right now, they don't want to join in a coalition because all sides accuse each other of being either too left or not left enaugh, though the main problem is that the moderates' leadership is at the right most edge of the left side. I honestly to this day don't understand why they didn't just fucking make something of their majority and rather went "lol, better become junior party underneath the conservatives and lose even more seats next election lul" and it might just go the exact same way this time.

    The conservatives (CDU/CSU) have a lot of problems right now. Their credo used to be "no constitutional party right to the right of us", meaning they wanted to capture everything on the right end that is not actually racist etc (so basically they are dirty liberals/comunists from a republican perspective). Then they moved to the left because germany has a pretty left majority, that worked everytime we stole the election from the socialists! Ups this time the new wave of right wing populism is stealing a few of our percentages, better start making hardline rightwing statements to try and steal the back! What, what do you mean that way we only legitimize them? But I am insulting our leader for being incompetent and a commie, why are they not voting for her anymore!???? You know what? Initiate emergency protocol start as much beef between the two sister parties as you can, insulting each other will make us seem more competent and votable!!! So yeah, that is Merkels party(s) for you (Yes, they are two seperate parties, joined in some kind of everlasting coalition and only one faction in parliament)

    The liberals (FDP) used to exist but they did not make the 5% bar (got like 3%). Basically the most reagonomic repulicans you can imagine, except they like LGBT and don't like guns. They were perceived as #hailcorporate sellouts and that did not bode well after the financial crisis. Doubt they will come back.

    Which leads us to the big problem, the new populist right wingers (AFD). They occupy basically the most right wing position the conservatives had, except you then move them to the right two notches and they are a-okay with all the nazis comming to them as long as they wear suits and don't say anything racist enaugh to be criminally chargable loud enaugh for anybody else to hear. So basically nazis, but they deny it. I highly doubt they will ever amount to anything because not even conservative hardliners want to have anything to do with them, but it remains to be seen wether their entry into parliament will shift the majority enaugh that there will have to be another big coaliton between the two middle most parties
    Edit: How did I forget to mention that there is a palace revolution basically every six month and the current Führertess is basically using some kind of insulting right wing newspeak that would put a shizophrenic tumblerella to shame.

    Good new though is that while the Constitution Court decided to not ban the actual Nazi-no-we-arent-we-just-really-love-white-people party (NPD), they did decide that the party is unconstitutional. How that works, you ask? Well, they found them guilty on all charges but they interpret the constitution so that you can only ban a party if it is relevant enaugh to change anything, because they don't want to set precedent for banning parties, but *wink wink*unconstitutional parties are not protected by the constitution *wink wink*in regards to taking some of the freedoms a party is granted away *wink wink*, like getting public funding like all recognized parties do*wink wink*. So if the lawmakers take the hint and the NPD decides to protest on grounds of the constitutional protection of parties, it will be the shortest supreme court decision in history, making the NPD basically bancrupt effective immediately. Nobody sane should be sad about them though, the world doesn't need a party with slogans like "white shouldn't only be the color of our national teams tricots"/"It is called "National Team" for a reason" etc.

    So basically +/-0 on the shit together scale for germany I guess? The left got it's shit together and the right lost it?


  • area_deu

    @loopback0 The money has to stay in the family after all.



  • For any french speakers who follow french scandals, this is hilarious.

    For non-french speakers - Guillaume Merice is a satirist who specialises in asking leading questions and getting stupid answers. Here he's interviewing people at a political meeting chaired by François Fillon, which, although intended to take the media spotlight away from the result of the socialist primary, was rather overshadowed by the revelations about his wife's "employment" history. After a few so-so right wingers, he manages to collar Patrick Balkany, who is no stranger to *ahem* "financial scandal" (he's been found guilty of embezzlement and corruption multiple times).

    Merice : You're a specialist in judicial affairs, what advice can you give?
    Balkany : I dunno, why are you asking me? My wife's never had a pretend job.
    Merice : Are you sure about that?
    Balkany : Oh yes.

    Political interview of the year, I reckon.



  • @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Which leads us to the big problem, the new populist right wingers (AFD). They occupy basically the most right wing position the conservatives had, except you then move them to the right two notches and they are a-okay with all the nazis comming to them as long as they wear suits and don't say anything racist enaugh to be criminally chargable loud enaugh for anybody else to hear. So basically nazis, but they deny it. I highly doubt they will ever amount to anything because not even conservative hardliners want to have anything to do with them, but it remains to be seen wether their entry into parliament will shift the majority enaugh that there will have to be another big coaliton between the two middle most parties

    That's what was said about UKIP.


  • area_deu

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Which leads us to the big problem, the new populist right wingers (AFD). They occupy basically the most right wing position the conservatives had, except you then move them to the right two notches and they are a-okay with all the nazis comming to them as long as they wear suits and don't say anything racist enaugh to be criminally chargable loud enaugh for anybody else to hear. So basically nazis, but they deny it. I highly doubt they will ever amount to anything because not even conservative hardliners want to have anything to do with them, but it remains to be seen wether their entry into parliament will shift the majority enaugh that there will have to be another big coaliton between the two middle most parties

    That's what was said about UKIP.

    Nah, I really think in this case Germany is different. Don't get me wrong, it's not like I underestimate the 20% voter potential they could theoretically have, but this is the exact same pattern as the NPD when it was still relevant, only not so obviously nazi this time around. But they are basically a bunch of clowns. If it weren't so sad that they actualy have a chance to get into parliament, watching their party would be hilarious.

    Sure, they will get percentages not to scoff at, but seeing how instable their party is and how many centrifugal rifts are already appearing, their results will dwindle when they have been in the opposition for one or two cycles because most people are voting them out of protest and when that not only loses it's shock value but will proove ineffective they will collapse. Unless of course the EU gets noticably worse of course, though they would not really survive the end of the EU in the same way UKIP basically did fuck all after brexit either.

    In relation to that satirist, there is basically a small scene of satirist shows on the public tv channels and they are so popular and so effective at making fun of stupid polititians that the AFD wants to end all public TV channels because you can't bribe them like the private ones and the government has no real leverage of them even though they have to pay them. Oh how many polititians have threatened to close them because "we own you" after being the laughing stock of the nation is glorious. It's part of the reason why watching the AFD grow has been some kind of guilty pleasure for me, they are so retarded it's hilarious, though they had to start to resorting to pretend to be from other channels because nobody from the AFD wanted to talk to them anymore.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    let's hope it's not Sarkozy

    That attitude is what got Hollande elected in the first place. You saw how that turned out. :D

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Curiously, Mme Le Pen, never one to shy from the spotlight, is being very quiet about this. Could it be that she's embroiled in her very own scandal? It could indeed. A third of a million paid by the EU to people supposedly working for her in Brussels. People who've never been to Brussels, but instead worked for the FN in France. Woops.

    She learned from Orban, I guess: Take as much money as you can from the institution you loathe. Oh, and continuously act like that institution does not benefit your nation at all while filling your pockets with their money.

    @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    There are also the greens, who are in the peculiar position of having an increasing number of social-conservative who are also environmentalists in their party, so they too are dragged to the middle like seemingly everyone else, while also being more left than the socialists because those moved to the right.

    That's not the main problem with our green party, at least not in my opinion. At least Kretschmann, the leader of the social conservatives in the party, has some connection to reality. He may be a bit too conservative for his own party, but he's their only popular politician. The problem of the green party is its inability to focus on the topics that actually matter.

    The green party had a decent chance to redefine themselves as (believable) social liberal "civil rights party" when the FDP got thrown out of the parliament. Instead, they continued to focus on extreme left and ecological issues in their campaigns. That's how you ruin a party's chances by focusing on what the ideologists in your party want instead of the issues the voters really care about.

    Also, your description of the CDU/CSU relationship is a bit incorrect. We have a somewhat reasonable conservative party, the CDU. And then we have its corrupt, moronic, borderline extremist stepchild from Bavaria, the CSU. Who suffer from attention deficit disorder and are therefore responsible for at least 90% of the most pointless and idiotic laws passed in the last few years.



  • @Quwertzuiopp So you guys really managed to have an independent government-funded public television. I'm envious (especially since it's totally ad-free, as well).


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    That's how you ruin a party's chances by focusing on what the ideologists in your party want instead of the issues the voters really care about.

    Worked for the Republicans in USAistan


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Jaloopa said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Worked for the Republicans in USAistan

    If you can create enough outrage, nobody will care about your policies (or in Trump's case, the lack of them).


  • area_deu

    @Khudzlin said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @Quwertzuiopp So you guys really managed to have an independent government-funded public television. I'm envious (especially since it's totally ad-free, as well).

    Only ad-free after 20:00. And the independent part has the problem that nobody can get them to move, at all, so they continue to make television like its 1980, except for a continually aging target audience, while all the good young talent has to go to obscure side channels that are acutally amazing but nobody watches because they are only allowed to do extremely niche things. It's frustrating to see, they should honestly rethink their main channels, all the good stuff is late night or on obscure side channels like I said.

    If only they actually went through with making a good youth channel run by the 1Live guys. 1Live is basically the best thing to ever come out of publicly founded media ever. They are such a big part of my childhood and such an amazing radio station that I honestly didn't know how shit normal radio is untill I lived in Canada and Bavaria. If they managed to make the one good radio station in the world, I would trust them to at least try to make a watchable TV channel.

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Also, your description of the CDU/CSU relationship is a bit incorrect. We have a somewhat reasonable conservative party, the CDU. And then we have its corrupt, moronic, borderline extremist stepchild from Bavaria, the CSU. Who suffer from attention deficit disorder and are therefore responsible for at least 90% of the most pointless and idiotic laws passed in the last few years.

    I wanted to paint a broad picture, but yes that is correct. I honestly think the CDU should divorce itself from the CSU, they are being dragged down by a party of braindead gorillas that feel the need to create fuss at every chance to compensate for the lacking size of their tiny bavarian dicks. At least, having moved to Bavaria, I get the chance to not vote for them, fuck them.

    I could almost like the Conservatives were it not for the fact that every time they get the government they shift all the blame to the previous government and then proceed to do jack shit until they are voted out, implementing as much shortsighted policy as they can to make it seem like they do something from time to time, while profiting from the long term benefits for farsighted programs from previous governments and their own minor coalition partners and claiming all the damn prosperous effects for themselves like they actually fucking did something. Meanwhile some other problem starts appearing and just when they can't ignore it anymore, they give government back to the socialists who then proceed to reform away the problems again, eating the up front cost and making themselves unpopular in the process by fixing all the conservatives faults, thus starting the cycle anew. welcome to german politics.

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    That's not the main problem with our green party, at least not in my opinion. At least Kretschmann, the leader of the social conservatives in the party, has some connection to reality. He may be a bit too conservative for his own party, but he's their only popular politician. The problem of the green party is its inability to focus on the topics that actually matter.
    The green party had a decent chance to redefine themselves as (believable) social liberal "civil rights party" when the FDP got thrown out of the parliament. Instead, they continued to focus on extreme left and ecological issues in their campaigns. That's how you ruin a party's chances by focusing on what the ideologists in your party want instead of the issues the voters really care about.

    Yeah, they fucked up. Instead of comming up with actual environmental plans and expanding their role as the only other civil rights party they asked for retarded bullshit that even the party literally called "the left" found to be too extreme or too retarded. But having the social-conservatives come to you because the CSU is scaring them away from the right does not help to mend the rifts in their party.



  • It took less than 5 posts for a thread about France to be invaded by Germany. Wunderbar. (and the :fleur-de-lis: when trying to type :-D has never been so appropriate...)


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I honestly think the CDU should divorce itself from the CSU

    The day that happens will be that same day that I will read their election program for the first time. Until then, I won't even think of voting conservative; their collaboration with the CSU is a deal-breaker.

    I also may or may not throw a huge party that day and get drunk like I've never been before.

    At least, having moved to Bavaria, I get the chance to not vote for them, fuck them.

    I'm a political refugee from Bavaria, and will not return as long as the CSU is in charge. I also still hope that some day, the airport in Munich might be renamed; I'm boycotting it until that happens.


  • area_deu

    @remi Well, thread derailing is a specialty here, though of course having the axis Paris-Berlin being the one major engine of the EU again after the Brexit makes this kind of relevant. To think I was so certain as a child at least the German-French core of the EU would Unify before I was an adult...... :(


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    It took less than 5 posts for a thread about France to be invaded by Germany.

    Sorry, you're just too easy to invade, I guess. ¯\(ツ)


  • area_deu

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I'm a political refugee from Bavaria, and will not return as long as the CSU is in charge. I also still hope that some day, the airport in Munich might be renamed; I'm boycotting it until that happens.

    Might sound extremist and sarcastical to others, but I am honestly 100% on you with this. But it is not like I have a choice with the job and doing a very specific university program at the side. At least Munich itself is not CSU :/



  • @Quwertzuiopp Well, the joke was too easy, someone had to make it.

    That aside, I agree with you. I did hope for some time that the UK could somehow bring some balance, and a less ideological vision, to Europe, but that's definitely gone out of the window (has been for a few years, with the rise of UKIP, anyway). So that's out.

    France is currently torn between its version of UKIP (FN on the right and various left parties -- actually probably the only thing that saves it from breaking the EU right now is the fact that this is split between far right and far left, so no chance for it to unify ever) and the rest who is trying to maintain the illusion that France is still a world leader and matters more than Germany (yeah... as if...).

    Until a couple of years and AFD becoming significant, I was still hoping that Germany was cautiously regaining enough self-confidence to take a position on the world stage fitting their actual weight, and doing so in a relatively mild and reasonable manner, pragmatic more than ideological. But that seems less and less sure now...



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    It took less than 5 posts for a thread about France to be invaded by Germany.

    Sorry, you're just too easy to invade, I guess. ¯\(ツ)

    Well, there was no invasionmention of Belg*** in between, so the rules were not followed.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I was still hoping that Germany was cautiously regaining enough self-confidence to take a position on the world stage fitting their actual weight

    Nah, we're terribly afraid of taking responsibility on a global scale. Also, that would only cause more pictures of Merkel with a mustache than are already published on a daily basis. We get enough hate (especially from Eastern Europe and the UK) as it is.



  • @asdf I know, saying "world stage" was a bit ambitious. But yet at the European level, I feel that Germany is becoming less and less reluctant to speak its voice, without necessarily having to tag along France or another country. Which is good, a country that size shouldn't play second fiddle. Heck, by any measure, they should be the one leading things over here.

    In a sense, the fact that the weight of history is so strong on them can actually be a good thing, if that makes them act more cautiously. But it is time that they start growing out of it...



  • @asdf Also, I wouldn't worry about getting hate from the UK. They love nothing more than hating their neighbours, except hating themselves, but that doesn't really change what they actually do. That must come with the weather and tea.



  • @Jaloopa said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    That's how you ruin a party's chances by focusing on what the ideologists in your party want instead of the issues the voters really care about.

    Worked for the Republicans in USAistan

    @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @Jaloopa said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Worked for the Republicans in USAistan

    If you can create enough outrage, nobody will care about your policies (or in Trump's case, the lack of them).

    I think you guys are talking about the Republican party here in the US, but it's all disconnected from reality. The problem the Rs have had recently is that the guys who were elected went all soft on the sorts of things the voters thought they were voting for, and then Trump came in by loudly supporting some of the big ticket items (the big one being immigration, obviously) and flipping off the entire establishment, left and right.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Heck, by any measure, they should be the one leading things over here.

    I really wonder what the reaction of the rest of the world would be if we actually did that. But my intuition tells me that they won't take it too well.

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    In a sense, the fact that the weight of history is so strong on them can actually be a good thing, if that makes them act more cautiously. But it is time that they start growing out of it...

    As long as the AfD is so popular, I would be careful with such statements.

    In general, I agree with you, though. I guess the biggest problems would be that:

    • We'd have to drastically increase military spending.
    • Our politicians could not deflect blame and assign responsibilities to the US anymore, which they love to do to weasel out of complicated situations.
    • Our constitution severely limits what we can even use our army for, so we need a partner like the US or France plus the UK who supports our foreign policy. For example, it would be unconstitutional for us to intervene in Syria, even if we wanted to.

  • sockdevs

    @boomzilla said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    then Trump came in by loudly supporting some of the big ticket items (the big one being immigration, obviously) and flipping off the entire establishment, left and right.

    And everyone else, too :slight_smile:


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @boomzilla I would love to reply to that, but this is the wrong category, because I'm pretty sure my reply would cause the usual suspects to start a huge flamewar. ;)

    Edit: OMG, has Trump changed Godwin's law? :scream:



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    That attitude is what got Hollande elected in the first place. You saw how that turned out.

    Nah, what got Hollande elected was probably 50 / 50 on what Sarko said and what Hollande said. "Finance is my enemy" struck a very big chord, at least as much as Sarkozy's "work more to earn more". Obviously, the latter became "work more so we earn more" once Sarkozy was in power; Hollande employed a banker from Rothschilds (Macron) as his finance minister...

    Still, can't say we're necessarily worse off under Hollande than we would have been under more Sarkozy. The PS are, though, as they can't decide what they believe in any more.



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Heck, by any measure, they should be the one leading things over here.

    I really wonder what the reaction of the rest of the world would be if we actually did that. But my intuition tells me that they won't take it too well.

    Well, that's the wonderful world of diplomacy for you. It is conceivable (yes, this word means what I think it means) that they could actually do that without looking that they do. Nobody would be fooled, and yet everybody would make it sound as if they are.

    But yeah, realistically, not gonna happen...

    In general, I agree with you, though. I guess the biggest problems would be that:

    • We'd have to drastically increase military spending.
    • Our politicians could not deflect blame and assign responsibilities to the US anymore, which they love to do to weasel out of complicated situations.
    • Our constitution severely limits what we can even use our army for, so we need a partner like the US or France plus the UK who supports our foreign policy.

    Not necessarily. One way out of all that is to have a strong EU. Sure, the UK never wanted a common defense/foreign policy, but this is where there might be a glimmer of hope that their exit could boost things. France was more or less ready to at least seriously consider the idea of a common defense (it failed, mostly because of France, but that was in the '50s, many things have changed since then...), it could come around. That could be built in such a way that Germany doesn't have to actually commit to a lot militarily, if that makes everyone happier.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Still, can't say we're necessarily worse off under Hollande than we would have been under more Sarkozy.

    I'm not insinuating that, but you'll have a hard time finding a more unpopular present who won a fair election in a free country.



  • @asdf Oh, quite. Betraying everything your party stands for will do that to you.



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Still, can't say we're necessarily worse off under Hollande than we would have been under more Sarkozy.

    I'm not insinuating that, but you'll have a hard time finding a more unpopular present who won a fair election in a free country.

    Trump is apparently working hard to get there. But since there were millions of stolen votes!!!!, I guess that doesn't qualify as a fair election.


  • area_deu

    @remi Me too, but honestly the AFD is not as bad of a hit to the german chance to do that as you may think. The problem is that the german conservatives have 0 vision and only govern from moment to moment. Merkel is too slow moving to change anything, the is the perfect pillar to uphold your roof in a storm but now that the storm has weathered a bit having no fucking wind in the sails is kind of prohibiting to, you know, getting anywhere, especially when you feral stepsister CSU is ripping the fucking sails. I honestly don't know why people pretend like Merkel is some kind of amazing leader of the free world, she is just amazing at finding the right thing to do to not fail.

    The upside is that maybe the three big lefties can actually get behind a Cancellor Martin Schulz because he could very well get more votes than anybody anticipated beforehands and because, while being from the conservative part of the SPD, he also was head of the EU parliament and not involved in all the evil conservative stuff for wich the left-left hates the SPD. Having someone who was very close to the beating heart of the EU who knows it's problems might be exactly what what Europe needs.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    One way out of all that is to have a strong EU. Sure, the UK never wanted a common defense/foreign policy, but this is where there might be a glimmer of hope that their exit could boost things.

    I would love to be that optimistic, but Eastern Europe has since switched into full opposition mode and the Netherlands and France are dangerously close to electing people who want to see the EU fail and become friends with Putin, so I see no chance of that happening.



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I honestly think the CDU should divorce itself from the CSU

    The day that happens will be that same day that I will read their election program for the first time. Until then, I won't even think of voting conservative; their collaboration with the CSU is a deal-breaker.

    If I remember correctly there's currently a lawsuit going on regarding this exact deal - basically, if you want to vote for Merkel while living in Bavaria you have to vote for the CSU.

    Now, a couple from Bavaria didn't really like this deal and they've gone to court stating that they deem it unconstitutional that, in a nation-wide vote for the chancellor, they'd have to vote for someone they really don't like (Seehofer / CSU) in order to get someone into office they like (Merkel / CDU).



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Still, can't say we're necessarily worse off under Hollande than we would have been under more Sarkozy.

    I'm not insinuating that, but you'll have a hard time finding a more unpopular present who won a fair election in a free country.

    Oh, I dare say that currently you won't have a hard time doing so at all.



  • @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Nah, what got Hollande elected was probably 50 / 50 on what Sarko said and what Hollande said. "Finance is my enemy" struck a very big chord

    Meh, not so sure. Honestly, I feel that anyone would have won agains Sarko at that stage. Any socialist candidate would have had some kind of variation around the "finance" one, because that's their shtik, and it would have worked because people wanted Sarko out, not [fill-in-the-blank] in.

    (which was also obvious in the primaries here, the way he got out was as strong a rebuke by the voters as an election can deliver!)



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    @boomzilla I would love to reply to that, but this is the wrong category, because I'm pretty sure my reply would cause the usual suspects to start a huge flamewar. ;)

    Edit: OMG, has Trump changed Godwin's law? :scream:

    People were talking about Nazis before Trump appeared in thread.

    But you're probably right. I'm sure you guys, who live an ocean away from the US, know a lot more about American voters who identify as Republicans than I do.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I honestly don't know why people pretend like Merkel is some kind of amazing leader of the free world, she is just amazing at finding the right thing to do to not fail.

    She's really great at successfully selling her own opinion as a compromise. Look at how much she changed her own party in the last few years and how well she manages the current European drama and all the hate she's receiving. I really think we Germans are grossly underestimating her.

    @Rhywden said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Oh, I dare say that currently you won't have a hard time doing so at all.

    You're vastly underestimating Trump's popularity outside the big cities.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @boomzilla said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    But you're probably right. I'm sure you guys, who live an ocean away from the US, know a lot more about American voters who identify as Republicans than I do.

    That's what your shoulder aliens said, not what I said.



  • @asdf said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    You're vastly underestimating Trump's popularity outside the big cities.

    I wasn't actually takling about the quantity, I was talking about the quality and the amount of open protest the guy gets after a mere two weeks.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Rhywden said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I wasn't actually takling about the quantity, I was talking about the quality and the amount of open protest the guy gets after a mere two weeks.

    Look at Poland if you want to see a comparable situation elsewhere. The rest of the world is unusually hostile towards the new president, sure, but the situation inside the country is not extraordinary.



  • @asdf We'll see. I get the distinct feeling that Trump is not done yet pissing off people. What with him threatening Mexico to invade and hanging up on Australia's PM.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @boomzilla said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I'm sure you guys, who live an ocean away from the US, know a lot more about American voters who identify as Republicans than I do.

    Quick side note: I don't think you're a prototypical Trump voter, either. For example, you are against isolationism and trade barriers (at least I remember you saying so elsewhere), while the majority of his voters seem to have loved his attacks on Toyota. Which are ridiculous, BTW, since Toyota has over 70% of the supply chain for its most popular models inside the US, more than almost all "US" manufacturers.*

    *Mercedes and BMW have also expanded in the US; and some models are almost exclusively built there. Which was not well received here in Germany; some Germans blame the declining quality on that.



  • @asdf Yes, his protectionism is probably my least favorite of his policies. But there wasn't a non-protectionist option in this election.



  • @Quwertzuiopp said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    I honestly don't know why people pretend like Merkel is some kind of amazing leader of the free world, she is just amazing at finding the right thing to do to not fail.

    Well, that is already better than many leaders. Hollande clearly failed to do that, for one.



  • @remi said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Honestly, I feel that anyone would have won agains Sarko at that stage

    Possibly, and almost certainly in the second stage. Still, Hollande got through to the second stage ahead of Sarkozy, and, above all, ahead of Le Pen.

    Not sure that's gonna happen this time.



  • Where do these guys stand on Italy? Are we going to have another Greece like drama?



  • @tufty said in Scandals in Communist Frenchystan:

    Not sure that's gonna happen this time.

    True. Until last week, it did seem almost certain that the first round would see Le Pen 1st, Fillon 2nd, and that Fillon would win the second round. Now... it depends on whether he can actually hang on to his position (in which case the scandal will end up reducing a bit his lead over left candidates, but won't matter that much in the end). If he can't... I have no idea what will happen.

    The sad part is that the only almost certainty is that Le Pen will get upwards of 30% in the first round and will likely come top. And the fact that all the other seem more or less resigned to it makes it even more demoralizing. :-(


  • area_deu

    @boomzilla Actually, Italy will do better than Greece, maybe even better than France. Their problems are more with organized crime and slow growth and weak economy in the south, but the north is doing pretty fine. My Stepfather buys a lot of his machines from North Italy and his contacts there that I have spoken to all seem to think that they should do fine if noone on the outside topples somemthing over. Of course they will never get out of that state ever if they don't manage to reform, but I would honestly not mind if more of Germanies money would flow into giving southern europe a push.

    A lot of people percieve Italy as worse than it is, because their debt seems so high, but that is actually because they have frontloaded a lot of investments. A lot of European countries have hidden debt and future liabilities, including France and Germany, in form of things like Pensions and other liabilities that Italy has frontloaded. If they can profit from the current low interest, they might actually come out ahead of France (edit: On debt per GDP no less, that is). The problem to this approach is that if the donald really topples something over, the ripples might be strong enaugh to topple italy, though Portugal and Spain will go down faster probably.

    Italies problems are more that they would be perfectly fine if they could actually ever get anything important done politically, but their politics are so broken that all the honest guys can never achieve anything. Last time someone tried was literally a month ago and he failed spectacularly. One can hope, but I would have a better feeling if I knew Germany would actually invest into a sort of European Marshal plan, even if it is relatively "small"


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