Traffic sins
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@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
@heterodox said in Traffic sins:
But you have to assume all drivers are dumbs.
This is the only way to remain alive while riding a motorcycle. I play "what-if" worst-scenario brainstorming while riding and it's scary how many times they come true. "What if that guy over there does a U-turn over a median without signalling, cuts in front of me, slams on the brakes, puts the car in reverse, gets out to moon me, car turns into a Transformer and tries to step on me, guy comes after me on foot in a road rage because it's all my fault, and then an atomic bomb goes off in the distance? Oh God...it's actually happening....WHYYYY?!?!?!"
One day two winters ago, the wife and I are driving along a 4-lane street divided by a median. I see something about to happen and say to the wife, "That dumb fuck is about to run right the hell over a median." Enough time elapses that she has enough time to start to say, "No they aren't, no one is that du.." SCREECH CRUNCH
Sure as shit. A new Camaro with dealer tags still on it apparently did not see a 6" tall median and turned right the hell in to it at 40mph, saddlebagging themselves right on the top of it.
I am never surprised about the idiocy of people behind the wheel.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
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@The_Quiet_One said in Traffic sins:
Maybe if they, I don't know, painted friggen lines on the roundabout, there wouldn't be as much of that.
Doesn't really help - there aren't lines on that roundabout because that's how it works on dual carriageways unless otherwise indicated, but it happens on roundabouts with lines too.
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@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
and then an atomic bomb goes off in the distance? Oh God...it's actually happening....WHYYYY?!?!?!"
Well, you won't have to wonder 'why' for long...
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
When you're driving a manual on a hill you do (I only did that on the really steep hills). Unless you have a Subaru - mine had a hill holder clutch - when you applied both clutch and brake fully, it kept the brake engaged until you started letting the clutch out. The other option was to roll the stop sign...
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
Not my fault you call it the wrong name
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@Polygeekery said in Traffic sins:
saddlebagging
What's that?
From the context, is that another way to say high-centering?
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@masonwheeler
I interpreted it as "getting their car stuck on the median, hanging over it like saddlebags on the back of a horse"
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
When you're driving a manual on a hill you do
Hold it using the clutch, or hold it on the foot brake and then just set off as normal using the clutch. Depends how long you're holding it for sometimes.
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@Polygeekery said in Traffic sins:
@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
@heterodox said in Traffic sins:
But you have to assume all drivers are dumbs.
This is the only way to remain alive while riding a motorcycle. I play "what-if" worst-scenario brainstorming while riding and it's scary how many times they come true. "What if that guy over there does a U-turn over a median without signalling, cuts in front of me, slams on the brakes, puts the car in reverse, gets out to moon me, car turns into a Transformer and tries to step on me, guy comes after me on foot in a road rage because it's all my fault, and then an atomic bomb goes off in the distance? Oh God...it's actually happening....WHYYYY?!?!?!"
One day two winters ago, the wife and I are driving along a 4-lane street divided by a median. I see something about to happen and say to the wife, "That dumb fuck is about to run right the hell over a median." Enough time elapses that she has enough time to start to say, "No they aren't, no one is that du.." SCREECH CRUNCH
Sure as shit. A new Camaro with dealer tags still on it apparently did not see a 6" tall median and turned right the hell in to it at 40mph, saddlebagging themselves right on the top of it.
I am never surprised about the idiocy of people behind the wheel.
And just think that for every crash like that, there are three or four crowds that get attacked by a Mustang.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
Not my fault you call it the wrong name
I've driven multiple vehicles (at least one was a manual) where the parking brake was operated by a pedal at the far left, not by a hand lever. Using it as a way to prevent roll-back would not have been possible without a third foot (one for the clutch, one for the gas/brake, and one for engaging the parking brake).
The one manual I recall driving with that arrangement had sufficient distance between the clutch and the parking brake that you couldn't accidentally press the wrong one (especially given that the parking brake was raised significantly when not engaged) and required you to pull a lever to release the parking brake. The lever was (in)conveniently located under the dash, two or three inches back, so you had to reach for it a bit. This was an old Ford pickup. And by old, I mean power-nothing and no seatbelts. Driving that thing was a workout.
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@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
@dcon said in Traffic sins:
When you're driving a manual on a hill you do
Hold it using the clutch, or hold it on the foot brake and then just set off as normal using the clutch. Depends how long you're holding it for sometimes.
For most hills. I've been on some where the moment you came off the brake, you'd roll several feet back. With very fast feet and absolutely perfect timing, you could do it. Handbrake is just easier. San Francisco hills are ... special.
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@abarker said in Traffic sins:
I've driven multiple vehicles (at least one was a manual) where the parking brake was operated by a pedal at the far left, not by a hand lever. Using it as a way to prevent roll-back would not have been possible without a third foot (one for the clutch, one for the gas/brake, and one for engaging the parking brake).
I've driven an automatic where the parking brake was foot operated, but I've never seen a manual like that.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
San Francisco hills are ... special.
...but not unique. Come to Seattle sometime and you'll see similar problems.
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@abarker said in Traffic sins:
I've driven multiple vehicles (at least one was a manual) where the parking brake was operated by a pedal at the far left, not by a hand lever.
*wince* I would never want to drive a car like that, for one very simple reason: in an emergency, if my normal brakes go out, I can slow the car using the handbrake. That's a lot harder to do with a foot-parking-brake with no release button.
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@dcon Alright, most hills.
It's not really something I need to worry about these days. Both my current cars (one manual, one automatic) hold the foot brake automatically so you can take your foot off without the car going anywhere which has made me a bit lazy.
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@masonwheeler said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
I've driven multiple vehicles (at least one was a manual) where the parking brake was operated by a pedal at the far left, not by a hand lever.
*wince* I would never want to drive a car like that, for one very simple reason: in an emergency, if my normal brakes go out, I can slow the car using the handbrake. That's a lot harder to do with a foot-parking-brake with no release button.
The foot ones I've seen usually have a release level on the side of the car under the dash.
My current Subaru (2015 outback) has done away with the hand brake. (Grrrr!) It's now a small electronic lever (and recently had a recall notice because the software was bad - that was reassuring...). Sometimes progress sucks. (But then the car isn't a manual anymore either - CVT.)
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@abarker said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
Not my fault you call it the wrong name
I've driven multiple vehicles (at least one was a manual) where the parking brake was operated by a pedal at the far left, not by a hand lever. Using it as a way to prevent roll-back would not have been possible without a third foot (one for the clutch, one for the gas/brake, and one for engaging the parking brake).
The one manual I recall driving with that arrangement had sufficient distance between the clutch and the parking brake that you couldn't accidentally press the wrong one (especially given that the parking brake was raised significantly when not engaged) and required you to pull a lever to release the parking brake. The lever was (in)conveniently located under the dash, two or three inches back, so you had to reach for it a bit. This was an old Ford pickup. And by old, I mean power-nothing and no seatbelts. Driving that thing was a workout.
Almost every four-wheeled vehicle I've ever driven, regardless of automatic or manual, had a pedal at the far left for the parking brake. My sister's Subaru is the only handbrake car I can think of off the top of my head.
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@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
@dcon Alright, most hills.
It's not really something I need to worry about these days. Both my current cars (one manual, one automatic) hold the foot brake automatically so you can take your foot off without the car going anywhere which has made me a bit lazy.
That is sweet - I've spoiled by it too! Probably the last time I used the handbrake trick was 30 yrs ago in a 1970 VW squareback - that was a fun car - I learned how to downshift in that with no clutch.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
It's now a small electronic lever (and recently had a recall notice because the software was bad - that was reassuring...). Sometimes progress sucks
When done right, electronic parking brakes are brilliant. In my Audi, just put the car in drive and accelerate and the parking brake releases automatically. The only interaction with the button is engaging it when parking, although it's possible to get it to do that automatically too.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
For most hills. I've been on some where the moment you came off the brake, you'd roll several feet back. With very fast feet and absolutely perfect timing, you could do it. Handbrake is just easier. San Francisco hills are ... special.
The last manual I drove, I got pretty good at bridging the brake and accelerator pedals with my right foot. I could keep the brake on with one edge of my foot to prevent rollback, while simultaneously rolling my foot to put pressure on the accelerator, giving it enough gas to not stall as I started letting the clutch out. It took some practice. And it wouldn't work if there were more than a foot-width gap between the brake and accelerator pedals, or if the pedal hights were too different, but it worked for that car.
Yeah, driving a manual in San Francisco hills is not the most enjoyable thing I can think of doing. I'd generally drive to Daly City and take BART the rest of the way.
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@HardwareGeek I held the brake while releasing the clutch, found that sweet spot where the clutch started to grab but not enough to stall, then switched my right foot over to the throttle. Never had issues rolling back once I had that maneuver down smoothly.
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@masonwheeler said in Traffic sins:
@dcon said in Traffic sins:
San Francisco hills are ... special.
...but not unique. Come to Seattle sometime and you'll see similar problems.
True that, but even more so. It's not just Seattle; pretty much the whole bloody Puget Sound area is like that. There ain't no place flat.
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@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
I held the brake while releasing the clutch, found that sweet spot where the clutch started to grab but not enough to stall, then switched my right foot over to the throttle. Never had issues rolling back once I had that maneuver down smoothly.
Exactly this.
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@mott555 said in Traffic sins:
found that sweet spot where the clutch started to grab but not enough to stall, then switched my right foot over to the throttle.
If the hill is steep enough, the sweet spot may not have enough grab to prevent rolling back. Some of the hills in SF are steep enough.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
When you're driving a manual on a hill you do (I only did that on the really steep hills). Unless you have a Subaru - mine had a hill holder clutch - when you applied both clutch and brake fully, it kept the brake engaged until you started letting the clutch out. The other option was to roll the stop sign...
Sounds like a good way to wear out your clutch. The procedure for stopping is:
- as you slow to a stop, apply the clutch and shift to neutral
- release the clutch, but keep holding the regular brake
Congratulations, you're stopped. To start back up again:
- in one smooth motion, simultaneously:
- press the clutch with your left foot
- release the brake and transfer your right foot to the accelerator
- shift into first gear (or reverse, as the case may be)
- immediately thereafter, simultaneously:
- release the clutch with your left foot
- start giving it gas with your right
Congratulations, you're moving again. If done with the proper skill you won't stall and you won't drift back more than a few inches at most.
To park... first, maneuver into the parking place and stop (using the steps ^^). Then:
- if parking on a hill, angle your front wheels so that if your vehicle should happen to roll, it'll roll directly into the near curb instead of into the street
- if your lights are on, turn them off
- turn off the engine
- engage the clutch
- shift into first gear; this will provide the most resistance to motion
- release the clutch
- if parking on a hill, engage the parking brake
- finally (you should've been on the brake this whole entire time), release the brake
Congratulations, your car is safely parked. To start moving again:
- if you're not buckled up, buckle up
- press the brake with your right foot, and keep holding it
- engage the clutch with your left
- shift into neutral
- turn the engine on
- if it's not sunny (before/after sunrise, cloudy) or if it's wet... turn the headlights on (I just do this always, regardless of light/weather)
- adjust the angle of the front tires if necessary
- proceed as I described for starting from a stop, taking care to verify that the front tires are pointed in the correct direction and adjusting them as necessary; disregard the part about engaging the clutch, as it's already engaged
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...or you could get an automatic like a civilized person.
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@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
In my Audi, just put the car in drive and accelerate and the parking brake releases automatically.
Huh. That would worry me, but then I'm the kind of lunatic who actually tests each month or so whether the car will start when it's not in park, that I can't move with the parking brake on, etc. like the manual says to do. Make sure all the safety mechanisms are still intact.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
Not my fault you call it the wrong name
Not my fault if you call it the wrong name, too... the parking brake on my manual transmission vehicle is a footbrake.
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
that was a fun car - I learned how to downshift in that with no clutch.
FWIW, most manual transmissions won't let you shift into gear without the clutch engaged, and it can damage them if you try. So unless you know for sure that it's okay on a particular car, it's probably not recommendable to try it.
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@heterodox said in Traffic sins:
Huh. That would worry me, but then I'm the kind of lunatic who actually tests each month or so whether the car will start when it's not in park, that I can't move with the parking brake on, etc
Why would that be worrying?
I've put it in drive, which is pretty difficult to do by accident, and I've pressed the accelerator. Those are pretty clear indicators that I'd like to set off.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
@abarker said in Traffic sins:
First, if the car in front of you has a manual transmission (rare in the US, but you can never tell) and you are facing uphill, they will likely have some amount of rollback.
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake.
I call it the parking brake, and it's used for parking. Not when you're just stopping at a traffic signal.
Not my fault you call it the wrong name
Not my fault if you call it the wrong name, too... the parking brake on my manual transmission vehicle is a footbrake.
It's also another name for a launch technique using an automatic transmission, also known as "brake stalling."
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@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
I've put it in drive, which is pretty difficult to do by accident, and I've pressed the accelerator. Those are pretty clear indicators that I'd like to set off.
I've had fantasies of catching someone trying to steal my car only to be delayed by trying to move with the parking brake on, allowing me to catch up to him and beat him to a pulp.
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@masonwheeler said in Traffic sins:
...or you could get an automatic like a civilized person.
Damn kids with your fancy automatics lowering the barrier to entry so that any idiot whippersnapper thinks he can drive...
(Seriously, though, if you ever have the opportunity to learn to drive a manual transmission, take it. There's no better way to really understand everything that's happening than to be in control of every detail if it. ... that said, the argument only goes so far; I wouldn't argue for the benefit of learning how to operate, say, a manual choke.)
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
(Seriously, though, if you ever have the opportunity to learn to drive a manual transmission, take it. There's no better way to really understand everything that's happening than to be in control of every detail if it. ... that said, the argument only goes so far; I wouldn't argue for the benefit of learning how to operate, say, a manual choke.)
That's the thing, though. When I'm going 60 MPH down a highway with certain death or maiming a foot or two to either side of me, I don't want to have to think about how the car works. The more the car can do for me, the less cognitive load I have on distractions that keep me from focusing on the most important thing: responding properly to road conditions around me.
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@The_Quiet_One said in Traffic sins:
@loopback0 said in Traffic sins:
I've put it in drive, which is pretty difficult to do by accident, and I've pressed the accelerator. Those are pretty clear indicators that I'd like to set off.
I've had fantasies of catching someone trying to steal my car only to be delayed by trying to move with the parking brake on, allowing me to catch up to him and beat him to a pulp.
I have to use the parking brake on my automatic. The vehicle weighs so much that if I rely on the parking pawl alone and the ground is not perfectly flat, gravity alone will jam the transmission in park and I can't get it to shift unless other people push and rock the truck while I yank on the shift lever. Not a problem if I put it in park, set the park brake, then disengage the main brake.
However, it has so much torque that it will drive just fine if I forget to disengage the park brake, even while towing a trailer!
So it wouldn't be much of a theft deterrent/delay. More of a "Why does this truck I just stole smell really funny?" effect.
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@HardwareGeek said in Traffic sins:
Yeah, driving
a manualin San Franciscohillsis not the most enjoyable thing I can think of doing.Corrected. (When I worked there, I drove exactly once - for the interview. CalTrain!)
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
I wouldn't argue for the benefit of learning how to operate, say, a manual choke.
My first manual also had a manual choke. Pulling out the choke also opened the throttle a little. It was occasionally convenient for times, like starting on a hill, when you needed to give it some gas but didn't have enough feet for all the pedals. (I didn't pick up the simultaneous brake and accelerator technique until later, in a vehicle that didn't have a manual choke.)
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@masonwheeler it becomes reflex -- you instinctively know what to do.
That said, there's really not a lot that you could need to do at 60 MPH that's different in a manual... if you do need to stop suddenly, just hit the brakes; remembering to clutch and shift into neutral before you're stopped completely is recommended, but stalling out won't hurt anything that badly either. And shifting out of gear without remembering to use the clutch -- while still not recommended -- probably won't hurt anything much either.
The really bad part is driving in stop-and-go traffic. Then you're constantly shifting... it's a pain, and it puts a lot of extra wear on the clutch.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@dcon said in Traffic sins:
that was a fun car - I learned how to downshift in that with no clutch.
FWIW, most modern manual transmissions won't let you shift into gear without the clutch engaged, and it can damage them if you try. So unless you know for sure that it's okay on a particular car, it's probably not recommendable to try it.
Remember, I said it was a 1970 VW. I couldn't do that on any of my Subarus (86 and up) - that wouldn't even allow the gear to be popped out unless the clutch was pressed.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
I wouldn't argue for the benefit of learning how to operate, say, a manual choke.
Those were a pain. Growing up, one of our vans had one. My manual I miss. The choke? Never.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
The really bad part is driving in stop-and-go traffic.
As much as I'd like my manual back - yeah, automatic rules for that!
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@dcon said in Traffic sins:
@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
@dcon said in Traffic sins:
that was a fun car - I learned how to downshift in that with no clutch.
FWIW, most modern manual transmissions won't let you shift into gear without the clutch engaged, and it can damage them if you try. So unless you know for sure that it's okay on a particular car, it's probably not recommendable to try it.
Remember, I said it was a 1970 VW. I couldn't do that on any of my Subarus (86 and up) - that wouldn't even allow the gear to be popped out unless the clutch was pressed.
Also, yes.
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@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake
Eh. As long as it's not too steep and you know where your buying point is, the handbrake isn't necessary. Hill starts really aren't that tricky
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@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
@RaceProUK said in Traffic sins:
Only if they're a dumb and don't use their handbrake
Eh. As long as it's not too steep and you know where your buying point is, the handbrake isn't necessary. Hill starts really aren't that tricky
Remember that when you stop at the top of
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@Jaloopa said in Traffic sins:
@Lorne-Kates said in Traffic sins:
I have no obligation to enable someone else's illegal behavior. I do have an obligation to drive according to the road conditions. If someone is tailgating, then there is no safe stopping distance at our current speed. They have created a situation where there is no choice but to slow down.
But if there's space in the lane to your left/right [delete according to country of residence] then you should be moving over to let him pass.
Exactly. I'm not saying you should suddenly accelerate to 200 km/h to ensure Mr. Fancy-Car isn't inconvenienced or that you should immediately force your way into the "slower" lane, regardless of whether it is free or not. What I am saying is that if the left/right lane is free and it is safe to change into it, you very well should do that, regardless of whether there is a car tailgating you or not. I fucking hate driving on Australian motorways because this appears to be an entirely foreign concept to 75% of the drivers there, no matter the "KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING" signs sprinkled every 5 metres.
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@Lorne-Kates said in Traffic sins:
Fuck off with "spedometer blah blah blah". They're accurate enough. And how does that asshole know he isn't doing 105 and being impatient?
Yeah, they're accurate enough to make sure you go the speed limit as far as the cops are concerned. Accurate enough to be the judge, jury and executioner of who's going "too fast"? Not so much.
@Lorne-Kates said in Traffic sins:
And fuck off with you thinking it's an innocent 5km/h difference, when it's an asshole in a fancy car, tailgating because they came up on me doing 140km/h in an 80 zone.
Yeah, that guy is a fucking asshole but if you can, you should move over anyway. Let the cops deal with his ass.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
if parking on a hill, engage the parking brake
Or just always engage the parking brake. There's no harm in doing so on level ground.
@masonwheeler said in Traffic sins:
That's the thing, though. When I'm going 60 MPH down a highway with certain death or maiming a foot or two to either side of me, I don't want to have to think about how the car works. The more the car can do for me, the less cognitive load I have on distractions that keep me from focusing on the most important thing: responding properly to road conditions around me.
Once you are comfortable enough driving a manual to get into 60 mph traffic, managing a manual transmission is basically second nature. Besides, you only really need to do anything "extra" when modifying your speed.
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@anotherusername said in Traffic sins:
(Seriously, though, if you ever have the opportunity to learn to drive a manual transmission, take it. There's no better way to really understand everything that's happening than to be in control of every detail if it. ... that said, the argument only goes so far; I wouldn't argue for the benefit of learning how to operate, say, a manual choke.)
What about a manual transmission without a synchro? Man, am I glad I didn't have to deal with that!
