RIP Java in the Enterprise
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@Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Sure you can. And I can, and I will. If you write ridiculous license terms that are intentionally hard to comprehend, it's your fault when people don't comprehend them as designed.
But that's not relevant.
@anonymous234 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Suing people for using your product is not good marketing.
@anonymous234 made a general statement about suing people for using a paid product without paying. Which, in general, is the logical thing to do - how else are you going to enforce the contract?
That Oracle are a bunch of cunts who trap their customers is a different matter, and I agree. But that doesn't mean suing people for breach of contract is wrong.
I really don't understand why this post got a downvote…
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@kt_ Because I downvoted it for the unspoken presumption of validity for leonine contracts.
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@kt_ Because I downvoted it for the unspoken presumption of validity for leonine contracts.
Then maybe you could have said that instead of going "Herp derp I disagree but won't tell you why".
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@Rhywden said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Yes. But think of it like advertisement: "You liked what we're doing with C# and .NET? Have a look at what you can achieve with Azure!"
Or something like that.Don't quit your day job for a marketing gig.
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@cartman82 I don't plan to :)
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@Rhywden said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@kt_ Because I downvoted it for the unspoken presumption of validity for leonine contracts.
Then maybe you could have said that instead of going "Herp derp I disagree but won't tell you why".
So you missed the point where I said that they should be illegal and no one should be enforcing them?
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@masonwheeler Which makes the downvote somewhat superfluous.
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@Rhywden said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@masonwheeler Which makes the downvote somewhat superfluous.
Downvoted for obviousness.
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@Polygeekery said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@Rhywden said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@masonwheeler Which makes the downvote somewhat superfluous.
Downvoted for obviousness.
OK, so who downvoted my joke about downvoting?
Which, BTW, was made about a post that (currently) has no downvotes.
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@boomzilla I like you, so I guess I will allow you to live.
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@Polygeekery it seemed like the obvious thing to do at the time.
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@boomzilla then you follow it up with appropriating brown culture?
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@Polygeekery
Well, after this cold snap killed his lawn, everything has a brown tinge to it.
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
No structs
By this I assume you mean copy by value rather than by reference? I gotta say, I really don't care for this feature.
@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
crippled generics
This one grinds my gears. Type erasure is the worst.
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Well yeah, but then you'd get scala on you!
Scala is awesome.
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2003 - A drunken Martin Odersky sees a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup ad featuring somebody's peanut butter getting on somebody else's chocolate and has an idea. He creates Scala, a language that unifies constructs from both object oriented and functional languages. This pisses off both groups and each promptly declares jihad.
-- James Iry, A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages
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@masonwheeler That's genuinely funny, but you missed the previous two equally hilarious entries:
1996 - James Gosling invents Java. Java is a relatively verbose, garbage collected, class based, statically typed, single dispatch, object oriented language with single implementation inheritance and multiple interface inheritance. Sun loudly heralds Java's novelty.
2001 - Anders Hejlsberg invents C#. C# is a relatively verbose, garbage collected, class based, statically typed, single dispatch, object oriented language with single implementation inheritance and multiple interface inheritance. Microsoft loudly heralds C#'s novelty.
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@another_sam ...and all the rest of the hillarious entries on there, because they weren't relevant to a discussion about Scala. (My personal favorite is the JavaScript one.)
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@another_sam ...and all the rest of the hillarious entries on there, because they weren't relevant to a discussion about Scala.
The two I quoted are directly related to your earlier evangelism of C# and criticism of the JVM.
(My personal favorite is the JavaScript one.)
I'm with you there. It's not so funny though, more painful. It cuts a little too close.
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@another_sam said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
The two I quoted are directly related to your earlier evangelism of C# and criticism of the JVM.
Heh, I suppose.
But I wasn't talking about C# so much as the CLR, which I said is a better JVM than the JVM. (I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that they came later and were able to learn from the JVM's mistakes, while the JVM team has had to maintain those mistakes because backwards compatibility.)
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@another_sam Is this the place at which I point out that C++, Java, and C# have more in common with each other than Scheme, Common Lisp, and Clojure? Just looking for the right point of reference, here.
Filed Under: Would you call every language that uses braces 'C' the way people call every language that uses sexprs 'Lisp'?
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@ScholRLEA said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Would you call every language that uses braces 'C' the way people call every language that uses sexprs 'Lisp'?
Paul Graham certainly does!
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@kt_ Because I downvoted it for the unspoken presumption of validity for leonine contracts.
Are you really sure that was the case? AFAIK, no one has provided any evidence for that in the thread. And @Maciejasjmj has clearly said in one of his posts they "some could challenge it and maybe even win, IANAL".
My point being: what I mostly see here is people crying because they believe they got tricked because someone who has historically not enforce the contract suddenly decided to do this. Nothing about how understandable the contract was.
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@masonwheeler Touché, sir. Though to be pedantic, he calls every language that doesn't use sexprs "Blub" , regardless of braces.
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@masonwheeler I think it's mostly that the JVM is java-centric, while the CLR is IL-centric.
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@Magus Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. That's one of the things Microsoft did right: they intentionally made their execution environment a common language runtime rather than a C# runtime.
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@masonwheeler Then again, my first team lead would say you cannot build a generic solution on one usecase, and I think there is truth in that.
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Paul Graham certainly does!
Yeah, but he spells it "Blub".
EDIT:
'd
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@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
they intentionally made their execution environment a common language runtime rather than a C# runtime
Yeah, it's common to both C# and VB!
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@Bort said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
they intentionally made their execution environment a common language runtime rather than a C# runtime
Yeah, it's common to both C# and VB!
And F#.
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@ScholRLEA said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Though to be pedantic, he calls every language that doesn't use sexprs "Blub" , regardless of braces.
I've always thought it fascinating how he assumes that he assumes that he's found the ultimate programming language and that everyone else is therefore just wasting their time. It's the Blub effect applied to its inventor…
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@dkf said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@ScholRLEA said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Though to be pedantic, he calls every language that doesn't use sexprs "Blub" , regardless of braces.
I've always thought it fascinating how he assumes that he assumes that he's found the ultimate programming language and that everyone else is therefore just wasting their time. It's the Blub effect applied to its inventor…
Did I miss some amusing article or something recently?
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@cvi said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@Dreikin Probably referring to this. Scroll down a bit, there's a section named "The Blub Paradox".
Aha, thanks. It appears I forgot all the "Rah! Rah! Lisp!" in that article.
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I got someone to debunk this on another forum.
According to Oracle's documentation, you have to start the JVM with "-XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures" option in other to use the features Oracle is collecting fees from, so it should be blindingly obvious that the people who are using this is using commercial features.
Although I'm not sure if there will be another message explicitly say this feature is non-free (the documentation has statement like "Java Flight Recorder requires a commercial license for use in production. " so something like this should be adequate)
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@cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@Adynathos Yeah, that will all come into its own place with time.
I am asking purely in terms of licencing.
If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem. But then again, if they are not charging for the OS anymore, and they aren't charging for licensing, what's in it for them?
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Cloud First, not Windows-first, and not even Office-first. This is why:
Microsoft Earnings Preview: Cloud Revenue To Increase, OS Revenue To Falter
Microsoft is set to announce its Q2 FY 2016 earnings on Thursday, January 28th. (Fiscal years end with June.) While the company continues to build a cache of hardware devices around its Windows 10 in order to establish its ecosystem, it continues to struggle to sell these devices. The company [...]
Makes sense to lower the costs of Windows10 (much more open source, less hired testers, more beta programs, ...) while invest heavily in the cloud and have the best offer even at a loss just to gain the market.
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@dse said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
This is why
Fucking internet, made me check if the poster was an unknown account first. I'm now trained to recognize this phrase as clickbait -.-
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@dkf said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
I've always thought it fascinating how he assumes that he assumes that he's found the ultimate programming language and that everyone else is therefore just wasting their time. It's the Blub effect applied to its inventor…
That's the problem with the concept of the Blub paradox. As a philosophical argument, it makes no useful claim, because it can be applied anywhere, to anything, and you can simply slap anyone attempting to deny the argument being made with "well the reason you can't see that you're wrong is because you're trapped in the Blub paradox."
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@dkf said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
I've always thought it fascinating how he assumes that he assumes that he's found the ultimate programming language and that everyone else is therefore just wasting their time.
@masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
Blub paradox
Good to bring up this topic in the thread about Java.
One of the reasons I value JVM is how it enables simple integration between different languages. That to some extent frees us from the language war.
It also brings the huge JVM collection of libraries to any new language in the ecosystem (and without libraries a new language would be rather worthless) and provides a JIT as well.
Of course there is a cost in the constraints it imposes and maybe performance, but I think it is worth it.A huge amount of work is wasted on reimplementing (and testing, securing, maintaining) the same algorithms and libraries in different languages.
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I do want to learn Lisp someday. I like that feeling of my brain stretching and expanding and digesting new ways of working, and I think Lisp will probably provide me that. I doubt it'll be particularly useful, but not everything has to be useful.
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@Yamikuronue said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
I like that feeling of my brain stretching and expanding
Sounds like a good way to get a headache, honestly.
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@Yamikuronue said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
I do want to learn Lisp someday. I like that feeling of my brain stretching and expanding and digesting new ways of working, and I think Lisp will probably provide me that. I doubt it'll be particularly useful, but not everything has to be useful.
The "expanding and stretching and new ways of working" mostly has to do with metaprogramming, and Lisp's facilities for it are actually kind of primitive. (Not surprising, as many aspects of the language's design are intentionally limited by the state of the art in 1950s parser technology!) There are much better solutions these days for learning about metaprogramming.
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@masonwheeler Suggestions? PRs into my brain are also welcome
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@Yamikuronue said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
PRs into my brain
I'm sure @Tsaukpaetra could find some way to
that...
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@loopback0 Factual.
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@loopback0 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
@Yamikuronue said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:
not everything has to be useful.
See: Javascript
But how else are we going to push web browsers far beyond their original intentions while adding more vulnerabilities than a typical Flash upda- Oh wait, we can just use Flash
