RIP Java in the Enterprise


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    TLDR: Only base Java SE is actually free, a bunch of other components that are installed-by-default are technically licensed items, and Oracle has decided that now is the time to actually enforce those.


  • :belt_onion:

    Java SE Suite, for example, costs $300 per named user with a support bill of $66; there’s a per-processor option of $15,000 with a $3,300 support bill.

    Some time ago, someone dug into Oracle's financials and figured out that nearly all of their profits come from the licensing division (those support contracts).

    Larry must want to buy another island.



  • The database giant is understood to have hired 20 individuals globally this year, whose sole job is the pursuit of businesses in breach of their Java licences.

    Editors, eh...



  • I guess it makes sense, now that the only people left that still use Java are the ones that really need it.


  • area_pol

    Steer clear of Oracle and install OpenJDK instead.

    I love JVM as the technology and I am very sad to see people hate it or exploit it so disastrously like in this case.
    I think one of the biggest lost opportunities of modern software is abandoning the java-in-browser idea (instead of fixing it), then trying to reimplement it with JS.



  • @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I think one of the biggest lost opportunities of modern software is abandoning the java-in-browser idea (instead of fixing it)

    I can agree with this but only to a certain extent. There were many problems with the implementation of Java applets being separate objects on the page. If you mean to integrate Java the language with web pages then I agree. If you mean make Java applets better then I cannot.

    I would have, in the past, pointed out how heavyweight the JVM is to be running every time you start a web browser, but looking at the amount of memory Firefox is using on my computer right now I see it's close to Eclipse, so I think that argument's time has come and gone.

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    then trying to reimplement it with JS

    I hope WebAssembly makes non-JS stuff on the web easier in the future, but there's a solution for right now: https://www.scala-js.org/


  • area_pol

    @another_sam said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I can agree with this but only to a certain extent. There were many problems with the implementation of Java applets being separate objects on the page. If you mean to integrate Java the language with web pages then I agree. If you mean make Java applets better then I cannot.

    I think that poor integration came from the design in which JVM was a loosely connected plugin. But an element that your code can write directly on is also needed, like current <canvas>.

    A lot of problems in the JS ecosystem comes from the lack of a standard library - so there is a new framework every week trying to be that standard library.

    WebAssembly

    Bytecode, JIT, platform-independent.
    It sounds impressive until you realize that is exactly what JVM achieved many years ago.
    Edit: oh, JVM also has a great standard library, unlike WASM.



  • @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    But an element that your code can write directly on is also needed, like current <canvas>.

    Yes, there's no reason it can't continue to be <canvas>.

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    so there is a new framework every week trying to be that standard library.

    Isn't jQuery the standard library? :trolleybus:

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Bytecode, JIT, platform-independent.
    It sounds impressive until you realize that is exactly what JVM achieved many years ago.

    There is nothing new in software development. We keep doing the same things over and over.



  • I'm honestly surprised it took them this long.



  • In short, whoever try to download and install J2SDK for development should make sure you've deselected all the other craps that comes with the installer as bundled software (namely the Advanced Desktop, Java SE Advanced and Java SE Suite) in order to avoid being sued.



  • @Weng To be fair, the same goes for WhatsApp (except iOS users where their licence explicitly says it's free) and a number of "free" softwares, and a number of "free service bundles" that automatically activated when you join a new ISP but no longer free after maybe 6 months or a year.

    I think they may have spelt it out in the EULA that most users will just click away too. If your local law is the kind that says this kind of "click away" EULA is not enforcible, you are safe from being sued.



  • @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Steer clear of Oracle and install OpenJDK instead

    Google went as far as to make their own VM, and they still tried to screw them over.

    Oracle basically killed Java with that, I don't know if intentionally or not. Suing people for using your product is not good marketing.

    Well, that, and the security horror that was Java in the browser. Seriously, if your product's main job is to securely sandbox code, and you have a new critical exploit every 3 days for months, maybe you're doing something wrong.



  • @anonymous234 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Suing people for using your product is not good marketing.

    I am thankful to not know too much about Oracle and their practices, but if the Internet is to be trusted, isn't this basically their business model w.r.t. their SQL products as well?



  • @anonymous234 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Suing people for using your product is not good marketing.

    How else do you suggest to enforce people actually paying for your product? TRWTF is Oracle's bundling model that gets unwitting people stuck with non-free-beer products without a warning, but you can't really blame them for enforcing their license terms, no matter how ridiculous.



  • Does anyone know what's the status of c# and. Net core on this front?

    Can this be the tipping point for pushing companies more towards microsoft?


  • area_pol

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Does anyone knows what's the status of c# and. Net core on this front?

    Having heard that C# is good, I tried to install and try it a few times.
    It was disappointing so far:

    • basic parts of standard lib like image manipulation are not working (not that I needed C# to manipulate images, but there was some C# program that I wanted to run that wanted to use it)
    • there seems to be no GUI library
    • other time I wanted to run some package from Nuget and it didn't even want to install it because it was supposedly made for a different version of .NET

    So my conclusion is that so far C# can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    you can't really blame them for enforcing their license terms, no matter how ridiculous.

    Sure I can! Ridiculous click-wrap and other non-negotiable publicly offered* license terms are certainly something to blame for - and under a good court system, get replaced with the legal defaults, whatever they may be. This is more-or-less the basis of law regarding contracts of adhesion.


    *: Like retail and download EULAs, but not "hey, can you make/do this thing for me?" "sure, here are the terms" type things where you're going to a specific entity and asking for them to do work for you. Yes, that's fuzzy and overlapping. Figuring out the exact boundaries is a matter for lawyers, politicians, and judges.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Does anyone knows what's the status of c# and. Net core on this front?

    Having heard that C# is good, I tried to install and try it a few times.
    It was disappointing so far:

    • basic parts of standard lib like image manipulation are not working (not that I needed C# to manipulate images, but there was some C# program that I wanted to run that wanted to use it)
    • there seems to be no GUI library
    • other time I wanted to run some package from Nuget and it didn't even want to install it because it was supposedly made for a different version of .NET

    So my conclusion is that so far C# can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.

    Yeah, .Net -> .Net core transition is appearing to be a bit KDE-like. Prior state was good. Later state will probably be good. But the leading edge right now is iffy. AIUI, since I've only paid tangential attention to it.



  • @Adynathos Yeah, that will all come into its own place with time.

    I am asking purely in terms of licencing.

    If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem. But then again, if they are not charging for the OS anymore, and they aren't charging for licensing, what's in it for them?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @Adynathos Yeah, that will all come into its own place with time.

    I am asking purely in the terms of licencing.

    If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem. But then again, if they are not charging for the OS anymore, and they aren't charging for licensing, what's in it for them?

    Notice how they're moving SQL server into linux? I suspect it's related to the Sun strategy mentioned - the bait that gets people into the ecosystem. Maybe also to give their internal engineers outlets that benefit the company in such ways, and also to enhance their reputation and desirability. At a WAG.


  • area_pol

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem.

    If its not Oracle, then its Microsoft is out to get us. Scary and depressing any way :(

    That problem with the bundled JRE installer should have limited technical effect:

    • if you are using Java for web servers, you will have the OpenJDK from Linux repos
    • if you have a desktop Java program, its best to bundle the JRE inside it (after all you don't install Oracle's JRE for Eclipse / Android IDE)

    But of course having an evil corporation trying to persecute people for using the tech is terrible for public perception of it.



  • @Dreikin said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Sure I can! Ridiculous click-wrap and other non-negotiable publicly offered* license terms are certainly something to blame for - and under a good court system, get replaced with the legal defaults, whatever they may be. This is more-or-less the basis of law regarding contracts of adhesion.

    Obviously you can challenge the license itself (and someone probably will, and they might even be in the right, IANAL). But expecting Oracle to write down a license that they won't be then enforcing is a bit ridiculous.



  • @Maciejasjmj I'd say the question here is whether they honestly didn't realise that no-one reads those things in detail (if at all) and that they were leading people on to unwittingly break the license agreement. It wouldn't exactly be difficult to include a more obvious warning at least in general that some parts of the download are not free to use, even if making them separately available was beyond them.

    This reminds me somewhat of stories I've heard about mortgage lenders deliberately selling loans that they know the buyer can't afford, with the intention of foreclosing when they inevitably default.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @CarrieVS said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I'd say the question here is whether they honestly didn't realise that no-one reads those things in detail

    Well, the certainly have no idea how to build a community around a product and keep it happy. I guess nobody inside the company feels responsible for that and they still don't understand that they're ruining Sun's products by killing the communities.

    Charging for the non-free parts of Java would have been perfectly fine if they had communicated their intention to do so beforehand.



  • I don't think this is quite what the headline and thread title imply:

    Java SE is free for what Oracle defines as “general purpose computing” – devices that in the words of its licence cover desktops, notebooks, smartphones and tablets. It is not free for what Oracle’s licence defines as “specialized embedded computers used in intelligent systems”, which Oracle further defines as - among other things - mobile phones, hand-held devices, networking switches and Blu-Ray players.

    This doesn't appear to be about going after Java EE (which is where most of Java in the Enterprise is). Also:

    The moment you, as an organisation, are delivering something where Java is distributed to end users – something more and more companies are doing by distributing apps through which customers can obtain products and services – that is not general-purpose any more… and Oracle wants to make money from that.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @boomzilla said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Java SE is free for what Oracle defines as “general purpose computing” [...] smartphones

    @boomzilla said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    It is not free for [...] among other things - mobile phones, hand-held devices,

    And they wonder why people are confused?


  • area_pol

    @Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    TRWTF is Oracle's bundling model that gets unwitting people stuck with non-free-beer products without a warning, but you can't really blame them for enforcing their license terms, no matter how ridiculous.

    TRWTF is the criminal stabbing his victim in a dark alley, but you can't really blame him for taking the wallet afterwards?


  • Dupa

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Does anyone knows what's the status of c# and. Net core on this front?

    Having heard that C# is good, I tried to install and try it a few times.
    It was disappointing so far:

    • basic parts of standard lib like image manipulation are not working (not that I needed C# to manipulate images, but there was some C# program that I wanted to run that wanted to use it)
    • there seems to be no GUI library
    • other time I wanted to run some package from Nuget and it didn't even want to install it because it was supposedly made for a different version of .NET

    So my conclusion is that so far C# can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.

    C# is not an environment. You're confusing a lot of concepts right there, but I'm half-sure you're trolling, so…


  • Dupa

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem.

    If its not Oracle, then its Microsoft is out to get us. Scary and depressing any way :(

    That problem with the bundled JRE installer should have limited technical effect:

    • if you are using Java for web servers, you will have the OpenJDK from Linux repos
    • if you have a desktop Java program, its best to bundle the JRE inside it (after all you don't install Oracle's JRE for Eclipse / Android IDE)

    But of course having an evil corporation trying to persecute people for using the tech is terrible for public perception of it.

    How's Microsoft out to get you?

    Paranoid just a little bit of a lot?



  • @kt_ said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Paranoid just a little bit of a lot?

    Only when my tinfoil hat rips.


  • Dupa

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    TRWTF is Oracle's bundling model that gets unwitting people stuck with non-free-beer products without a warning, but you can't really blame them for enforcing their license terms, no matter how ridiculous.

    TRWTF is the criminal stabbing his victim in a dark alley, but you can't really blame him for taking the wallet afterwards?

    They're not a criminal cause they're in the right there? I mean, there was a license and that people decided to misinterpret it, it's not their fault.

    Sure, it could be better for the long-term if they decided to start charging only for the periods to come, not retroactively and if they provides a cooling period, but from what is reported it looks like a more fitting metaphor would be a guy handing out CDs on the street with software installers whose EULAs state that you can't use everything for free and then they come and take your wallet because you failed to read and comply, because what? This guy gave it to you for free? Well… that's kinda stupid explanation.


  • area_pol

    @kt_ said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    you're trolling

    I would never do that.

    C# is not an environment

    I guess you want to point out that C# the language is a separate entity from .NET the framework and that there are different ways to use C#, for example with Mono.
    However, what is important is not the language but what software you have access to when using it. The advantage of the Java and C# ecosystems is that they have a lot of easily accessible existing software (maven / nuget). My experience with .NET Core is that it fails in this area.

    How's Microsoft out to get you?

    That was a poetic overstatement.
    What I meant was that I would not like to see an increase in popularity of Microsoft's software, especially if it were to replace currently used open source software.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @another_sam said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I would have, in the past, pointed out how heavyweight the JVM is to be running every time you start a web browser, but looking at the amount of memory Firefox is using on my computer right now I see it's close to Eclipse, so I think that argument's time has come and gone.

    0_1482160818073_upload-29a04309-bc14-456d-b22c-234cac07924e

    Yeah, I don't know if that would have been a big issue...



  • @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @Adynathos Yeah, that will all come into its own place with time.

    I am asking purely in terms of licencing.

    If Oracle fucks up JAVA, that could be a huge chance for MS to rebound their faltering ecosystem. But then again, if they are not charging for the OS anymore, and they aren't charging for licensing, what's in it for them?

    Azure, Office and stuff.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I love JVM as the technology and I am very sad to see people hate it or exploit it so disastrously like in this case.

    The basic ideas behind the JVM are very interesting, but some of the implementation details have been flat-out disastrous. (No structs, crippled generics, etc.)


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @another_sam said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I hope WebAssembly makes non-JS stuff on the web easier in the future, but there's a solution for right now: https://www.scala-js.org/

    Well yeah, but then you'd get scala on you! :nauseated_face:


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    How else do you suggest to enforce people actually paying for your product? TRWTF is Oracle's bundling model that gets unwitting people stuck with non-free-beer products without a warning, but you can't really blame them for enforcing their license terms, no matter how ridiculous.

    Sure you can. And I can, and I will. If you write ridiculous license terms that are intentionally hard to comprehend, it's your fault when people don't comprehend them as designed.

    In ancient times, in codes of law, it was widely considered a bad thing to dig a pit or lay a snare that could entrap your fellow citizens. It was not considered their fault for not noticing it; it was yours for doing something like that in the first place. ISTM this principle is as valid today as it's ever been.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Does anyone know what's the status of c# and. Net core on this front?

    Can this be the tipping point for pushing companies more towards microsoft?

    I certainly hope so, as 1) they've made it pretty clear and unambiguous that this is a free software project, unlike Oracle, and 2) the CLR is a better JVM-like entity than the JVM.



  • @masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Sure you can. And I can, and I will. If you write ridiculous license terms that are intentionally hard to comprehend, it's your fault when people don't comprehend them as designed.

    But that's not relevant.

    @anonymous234 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Suing people for using your product is not good marketing.

    @anonymous234 made a general statement about suing people for using a paid product without paying. Which, in general, is the logical thing to do - how else are you going to enforce the contract?

    That Oracle are a bunch of cunts who trap their customers is a different matter, and I agree. But that doesn't mean suing people for breach of contract is wrong.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @kt_ said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    C# is not an environment. You're confusing a lot of concepts right there, but I'm half-sure you're trolling, so…

    No, it makes sense in the context of .NET Core, which is the recent open-source release of the CLR, CoreFX (a subset of the .NET standard library), and the C# and VB compilers.



  • @Maciejasjmj Some companies have been ridiculed for merely installing unpaid-for features, and enabling based on license key.

    Oracle shows you the button, and charges you after you clicked it.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @Maciejasjmj said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @anonymous234 made a general statement about suing people for using a paid product without paying. Which, in general, is the logical thing to do - how else are you going to enforce the contract?

    Leonine contracts should not be enforced; they should be outlawed.


  • sockdevs

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    So my conclusion is that so far C# can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.

    Despite the fact it's 1) a language, not an environment, and 2) there are billions of lines of C# in active use worldwide, if not trillions.

    Now, if you'd said
    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    So my conclusion is that so far C#.NET Core can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.

    then you'd have a point.



  • @Rhywden

    You don't need .NET to use azure, Office and stuff.


  • mod

    @PleegWat said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Oracle shows you the button, and charges you after you clicked it.

    Oracle ticks the checkbox by default, says nothing about payment, and then sues you years later for license breach.


  • Impossible Mission - B

    @Adynathos said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    Having heard that C# is good, I tried to install and try it a few times.
    It was disappointing so far:

    • basic parts of standard lib like image manipulation are not working (not that I needed C# to manipulate images, but there was some C# program that I wanted to run that wanted to use it)
    • there seems to be no GUI library
    • other time I wanted to run some package from Nuget and it didn't even want to install it because it was supposedly made for a different version of .NET

    So my conclusion is that so far C# can not be trusted as a general purpose programming environment.

    Yeah, it still has a very "under construction" feel to it, but there's a lot of progress being made very quickly by some very dedicated and talented community members, as well as the core team at Microsoft. Hopefully it won't take too much longer before they've got it working.



  • @Maciejasjmj I actually meant the thing where they sued Google for using a third-party reimplementation of a product they offered for free under the GPL license.



  • @cartman82 said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @Rhywden

    You don't need .NET to use azure, Office and stuff.

    Yes. But think of it like advertisement: "You liked what we're doing with C# and .NET? Have a look at what you can achieve with Azure!"

    Or something like that.


  • Dupa

    @Polygeekery said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @another_sam said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    I would have, in the past, pointed out how heavyweight the JVM is to be running every time you start a web browser, but looking at the amount of memory Firefox is using on my computer right now I see it's close to Eclipse, so I think that argument's time has come and gone.

    0_1482160818073_upload-29a04309-bc14-456d-b22c-234cac07924e

    Yeah, I don't know if that would have been a big issue...

    That's actually a reason why I've been thinking about jumping ships lately…


  • Dupa

    @masonwheeler said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    @kt_ said in RIP Java in the Enterprise:

    C# is not an environment. You're confusing a lot of concepts right there, but I'm half-sure you're trolling, so…

    No, it makes sense in the context of .NET Core, which is the recent open-source release of the CLR, CoreFX (a subset of the .NET standard library), and the C# and VB compilers.

    Yeah, it wasn't clear from his post, but he later cleared that up.


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