The Swedish Politics Thread
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@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Oh, we are definitely detecting the effects... it's just that they're rather long-term and thus the usual target for "it ain't gonna be a problem, yo!" guys like you.
We've been using plastics for stuff like this for decades. What's the time scale?
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@boomzilla decades plus a couple of years
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
You usually bring them back to the shop here, and they get shipped back to the bottling company, who cleans and re-uses them a few times.
Not likely to happen here, with as often as the marketers change the shape of the bottle to "new and improved".
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Oh, we are definitely detecting the effects... it's just that they're rather long-term and thus the usual target for "it ain't gonna be a problem, yo!" guys like you.
We've been using plastics for stuff like this for decades. What's the time scale?
Decades, as @Jaloopa said. Plus, the effects are subtle. They're not "massive increase in cancer rates" but rather stuff like "decreased fertility" and "developmental difficulties when exposed pre-natally".
You may have heard of the correlation between environmental lead levels and crime rates. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about here.
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@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Decades, as @Jaloopa said. Plus, the effects are subtle. They're not "massive increase in cancer rates" but rather stuff like "decreased fertility" and "developmental difficulties when exposed pre-natally".
So we'll be guessing based on correlations of very subtle things over long periods of time where a zillion other things changed, too. Which nicely confirms my lack of concern.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Decades, as @Jaloopa said. Plus, the effects are subtle. They're not "massive increase in cancer rates" but rather stuff like "decreased fertility" and "developmental difficulties when exposed pre-natally".
So we'll be guessing based on correlations of very subtle things over long periods of time where a zillion other things changed, too. Which nicely confirms my lack of concern.
Erm, subtle as in "The moron from next door doesn't care about it because he won't drop dead immediately". Not subtle as in "hard to quantify".
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@lolwhat said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Although I don't know whether water fits in there somewhere...
Water you talking about?
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@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@Rhywden said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Decades, as @Jaloopa said. Plus, the effects are subtle. They're not "massive increase in cancer rates" but rather stuff like "decreased fertility" and "developmental difficulties when exposed pre-natally".
So we'll be guessing based on correlations of very subtle things over long periods of time where a zillion other things changed, too. Which nicely confirms my lack of concern.
Erm, subtle as in "The moron from next door doesn't care about it because he won't drop dead immediately". Not subtle as in "hard to quantify".
That doesn't sound terribly compatible with a timescale of decades. Pre-natal exposure is, obviously, not happening over decades. Observational medical studies are really horrible at quantifying things with any degree of accuracy.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Observational medical studies are really horrible at quantifying things with any degree of accuracy.
That might be true, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the problem. We know that certain chemicals emitted by plastic work like estrogens in the human body, so we should probably try to reduce their concentration in food and try to figure out which amount is dangerous.
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
We've been using plastics for stuff like this for decades. What's the time scale?
Humans used kitchen utensils made from lead for multiple milennia before we figured out how harmful heavy metals are. Your argument is invalid.
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BTW, the problem is even bigger than that, since birth control pills also contribute their share of estrogen-like substances. The artificial estrogens used in those pills are not biodegradable, and have been accumulating in drinking water for decades now.
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
That might be true, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the problem.
But if you can't figure out what the problem is, what do you do?
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
We know that certain chemicals emitted by plastic work like estrogens in the human body, so we should probably try to reduce their concentration in food and try to figure out which amount is dangerous.
We should figure out what amount is dangerous and get below that level. What's the level? There are dangerous chemicals in lots of kinds of foods, but not above the danger level for how much people are generally consuming.
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Humans used kitchen utensils made from lead for multiple milennia before we figured out how harmful heavy metals are. Your argument is invalid.
That's a non sequitur.
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
BTW, the problem is even bigger than that, since birth control pills also contribute their share of estrogen-like substances. The artificial estrogens used in those pills are not biodegradable, and have been accumulating in drinking water for decades now.
Right. So if these plastic problems take decades to surface, how would we be able to disentangle their subtle estrogen-like effects from this source?
I'm not saying that stuff from plastic for sure isn't a problem, but I am saying that there's no good reason right now to be scared and avoid plastic containers.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
That's a non sequitur.
No it's not. You're saying if there was a problem we'd have noticed it by now and @asdf provided a counter example of something harmful we used for centuries before realising it was dangerous.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
We should figure out what amount is dangerous and get below that level. What's the level?
Why are you asking me.
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I'm not saying that stuff from plastic for sure isn't a problem, but I am saying that there's no good reason right now to be scared and avoid plastic containers.
If you're not arguing against the research, then we're in violent agreement. But it sounded like you were doing just that, by claiming it's completely unnecessary to worry about such things as long as it doesn't affect the average life expectancy. I'd say that at the point we can measure premature deaths on a large scale, we have already failed.
I'm not scared of plastic containers, but I avoid them when possible/feasible. I think that's the sensible thing to do.
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@Jaloopa said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
That's a non sequitur.
No it's not. You're saying if there was a problem we'd have noticed it by now and @asdf provided a counter example of something harmful we used for centuries before realising it was dangerous.
No, I'm saying if you want me to do something about a problem you need to provide evidence of the problem. Just because we've done harmful thing A for a long time in the past doesn't mean that we must do something about thing B for which there isn't good evidence that it is a serious problem.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
No, I'm saying if you want me to do something about a problem you need to provide evidence of the problem.
We know that adipositas, coronary heart diseases and possibly also infertility are becoming more and more common, and we suspect that estrogen-like substances in foods and drinking water may contribute to all three problems. But since there are many factors out there, it's incredibly hard to prove what exactly causes them. What we do know is that estrogen-like substances can theoretically cause all of this, but there's no easy way of telling whether they're doing so in the amounts we currently consume. (Even telling how much we actually consume isn't easy.)
Don't you think that this at least justifies further research that somehow tries to answer those questions?
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Why are you asking me.
It was really a question for my friend rhetorical.
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
But it sounded like you were doing just that, by claiming it's completely unnecessary to worry about such things as long as it doesn't affect the average life expectancy.
Obviously life expectancy is the worst consequence. What if the actual consequence was something on the opposite end of that spectrum like, say, your hair is more likely to develop split ends?
I'm saying that nothing I've heard has given me cause to worry about this issue.
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I'm not scared of plastic containers, but I avoid them when possible/feasible. I think that's the sensible thing to do.
Personally, it makes no sense to me to expend energy / money / time on something that's a non-factor. I can only worry about so many things, and this isn't anywhere near the part of my list that justifies action.
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Don't you think that this at least justifies further research that somehow tries to answer those questions?
Yes, why wouldn't I?
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Obviously life expectancy is the worst consequence.
What about infertility and rising treatment costs for non-lethal diseases?
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Yes, why wouldn't I?
Just wanted to make sure, since it didn't sound like that.
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Obviously life expectancy is the worst consequence.
What about infertility and rising treatment costs for non-lethal diseases?
I'd say that those are worse than bad hair days but better than dying. Wouldn't you?
@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Just wanted to make sure, since it didn't sound like that.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I'd say that those are worse than bad hair days but better than dying. Wouldn't you?
Personally, I'd rather die than lose my hair.
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Just wanted to make sure, since it didn't sound like that.
Pro tip: If you don't want to give me the impression you're denying that there's a chance a problem actually exists, start with
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I can only worry about so many things
instead of
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I'm more worried about chemtrails.
@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
I'll bet you that we won't be able to detect any of those effects and lifespans will continue to rise.
next time.
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@asdf said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Pro tip:
Your quest to remove snark from something called "The Swedish Politics Thread" is doomed to fail.
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@Onyx said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Our female prime minister... Ok, we remember her. Mostly because she spouted a lot of stupid that most of her colleagues manage to keep off-camera.
So... sort of like Rob Ford, but with less crack cocaine?
Rob Ford: The Internet's Favorite Politician? - Internet Hall of Fame – 08:30
— TheGamerFromMars
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@lolwhat said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@ben_lubar is punning juice/Jews... I guess? Although I don't know whether water fits in there somewhere...
"What are Jews?"
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Gentlepeople!
This is the swedish politics thread. We don't become engaged. If an argument lasts for more than two replies, we officially have a disagreement!
Swedes loathe disagreements. We will even forego lunch in order to find a lukewarm compromise.
Me, I'm partially non-swedish, so I will just suggest that you take the disagreement elsewhere, where I don't have to see it.
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@Luhmann said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@HardwareGeek said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
"What are Jews?"
For 400?
Stupid Game Show Answers - Come Again? – [01:46..02:21] 02:21
— Stupid Game Show Answers
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How much of this is hysteria and how much is truth?
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
How much of this is hysteria and how much is truth?
I honestly don't know. I live on the countryside, and this is primarily a "big city" [1] problem... I have never heard of no-go-zones in this way. Of course, there have always been badly lit parks and places where you are more likely to get mugged, but this random violence is new.
As for the setting fire to cars, it's cropped up just in the recent months.
[1] the tree biggest cities in sweden, where the third largest one has a population of 300 000 people.
ETA: the article is just bullshit, though. Not a word of it is at least reported in swedish news.
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@boomzilla Guideline: When an article starts talking about "no-go" zones in European cities, it's probably bullshit.* Those claims have been made over and over again, but to my knowledge they've never been true.
*Unless the city is in Ukraine; then it might be true.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
tree biggest cities in sweden
With all that forest, it's a good thing trees don't vote there or your politics would be even more wooden…
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@asdf Well, I'm sure there are no-go zones were a police officer won't go alone.
I don't think there are any where he'll demand army backup.
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Not exactly politics, but hey -- it's my thread:
15 reasons for being absent from a Swedish meeting
Pia vabbar: she is at home taking care of her sick kids.
Lars vobbar: he is at home with sick kids but still answers mails.
Camilla voffar: she is at home with her sick dog.
Anita arbetar hemifrån: she works hard but nobody has actually seen her do it very often.
Stefan is late because of the unexpected snow in November. It’s called snökaos.
Lena only works 75% of the time.
Angelika is on permanent maternity leave. Nobody has seen her for the past three and a half years.
Bertil is on a course. It’s called Processhantering. There is a process for everything so someone has to learn how to deal with them all.
Hassan has been stuck on a non-moving train between a suburb and Stockholm Central for four hours. It’s called stopp i trafiken.
Lena from Logistics is away and according to rumour she has outsourced herself to a Baltic state.
Sverker is in another meeting. He has many balls in the air. It’s called många bollar i luften.
Tomas has utmattningsdepression: he is stressed out and has walked into the wall. (It’s a Swedish thing).
This is Carina’s week with kids from marriages 1 and 2 and her ex-mother-in-law from relationship 3. It’s called varannan vecka.
Stig is at the monthly meeting of the local Restless Legs Förbundet (society). Swedes often meet up to share suffering.
Sten was last heard of on Twitter at 2.20 this morning with an update from Tallinn.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Sverker is in another meeting. He has many balls in the air.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
Not exactly politics, but hey -- it's my thread:
15 reasons for being absent from a Swedish meeting
Pia vabbar: she is at home taking care of her sick kids.
Lars vobbar: he is at home with sick kids but still answers mails.
Camilla voffar: she is at home with her sick dog.
Anita arbetar hemifrån: she works hard but nobody has actually seen her do it very often.
Stefan is late because of the unexpected snow in November. It’s called snökaos.
Lena only works 75% of the time.
Angelika is on permanent maternity leave. Nobody has seen her for the past three and a half years.
Bertil is on a course. It’s called Processhantering. There is a process for everything so someone has to learn how to deal with them all.
Hassan has been stuck on a non-moving train between a suburb and Stockholm Central for four hours. It’s called stopp i trafiken.
Lena from Logistics is away and according to rumour she has outsourced herself to a Baltic state.
Sverker is in another meeting. He has many balls in the air. It’s called många bollar i luften.
Tomas has utmattningsdepression: he is stressed out and has walked into the wall. (It’s a Swedish thing).
This is Carina’s week with kids from marriages 1 and 2 and her ex-mother-in-law from relationship 3. It’s called varannan vecka.
Stig is at the monthly meeting of the local Restless Legs Förbundet (society). Swedes often meet up to share suffering.
Sten was last heard of on Twitter at 2.20 this morning with an update from Tallinn.
Does this actually happen in ?
Can I use these excuses myself, as long as the meeting is Swedish? (I am not Swedish)
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@cark I've encountered all but the outsourced and the restless legs as acceptable excuses to avoid a meeting. The sick dog is usually disguised as working from home. ... which is something you do occasionally, and not a permanent state, so I would assume their presence at the meeting was not that important.
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@cark missing on the list is elk-hunt and surströmmings-premiere.
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This is probably a confused US American, but Ima put this here anyways:
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@boomzilla Twitter: Exposing stupidity worldwide since 2006.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
surströmmings-premiere.
Well, I guess it's better to deal with the stuff in the freshest form possible...
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@Onyx said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@Mikael_Svahnberg said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
surströmmings-premiere.
Well, I guess it's better to deal with the stuff in the freshest form possible...
And "supected" means: The can is still closed. It's a Schrödinger food - you don't know how bad it is until after you've opened the can.
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@Rhywden Well, you know, if the lid is already bulging, that one kinda proves it's ripe for insurgent removal.
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@Onyx In that case if you insist on opening it I insist you do it far away from me, outside, in a well ventilated place.
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@PleegWat From what I've heard, you're meant to open the can underwater.
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@RaceProUK said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@PleegWat From what I've heard, you're meant to open the can underwater.
From what I hear, you're not supposed to open it at all. You're supposed to put it in a package and send it off to Texas.
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@Mikael_Svahnberg Maybe we should send some to @apapadimoulis to go with his salmiakki collection?
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@loopback0 said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
@Mikael_Svahnberg Maybe we should send some to @apapadimoulis to go with his salmaikki collection?
Salmiakki. You heathen.
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@Rhywden Oops.
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@boomzilla said in The Swedish Politics Thread:
This is probably a confused US American, but Ima put this here anyways:
<snip />You spend half a year without sun, and then tell me what colour my skin should have.