Where are we going with this?



  • Today:

    0_1468989958192_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 8.27.25 PM.png

    INB4:

    0_1468989994336_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 9.41.25 PM.png



  • @Greybeard said in Where are we going with this?:

    Today:

    0_1468989958192_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 8.27.25 PM.png

    INB4:

    0_1468989994336_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 9.41.25 PM.png

    yeah and hovering over them gives no info :wtf: they are. They are such universal icons.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    No harm clicking to find out!



  • @dse Fortunately, it's possible for me to look at the bottom of my browser window to discover the associated URLs:
    /categories
    /unread
    /recent
    /user/scarlet_manuka/favourites
    /tags
    /users
    /groups

    Not that most of those are particularly useful, but at least it isn't too hard to see what they are.


  • area_deu

    @mods and admins have even more icons



  • @aliceif Truly, the life of a mod is an eternal feast of bliss.



  • @Tsaukpaetra said in Where are we going with this?:

    No harm clicking to find out!

    No way! never click on unknown buttons in the Internetz, nevaar



  • And somehow I missed 0_1468994031707_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.53.20 PM.png



  • @aliceif said in Where are we going with this?:

    @mods and admins have even more icons

    Why? Clicking on them would be work.



  • @Greybeard

    Dropdown menus are evil... apparently...

    We should double the height of the top header, add tabs, and call it a ribbon.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @Greybeard said in Where are we going with this?:

    @aliceif said in Where are we going with this?:

    @mods and admins have even more icons

    Why? Clicking on them would be work.

    And making a post complete with screenshots isn't? :wtf: world do you exist in?



  • @Greybeard said in Where are we going with this?:

    And somehow I missed 0_1468994031707_Screen Shot 2016-07-19 at 10.53.20 PM.png

    hello?



  • Why are tooltips missing from most of the icons? Pretty sure we used to have them. community.nodebb.org has them.

    cc: @ben_lubar



  • @NedFodder whoops. I've got a fix for that, but it might break some stuff, so I'm gonna test it locally in Edge and Firefox 22 after I get out of bed.

    Here's the change I have prepared: https://github.com/boomzillawtf/tdwtf/commit/7be589e7b6588efdc409d79dead2517000b78334


  • sockdevs

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    Firefox 22

    you're still testing on a browser version that is literally years out of EOL?!

    let it die man, let it die.



  • @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    Firefox 22

    you're still testing on a browser version that is literally years out of EOL?!

    let it die man, let it die.

    Lorne-Kates uses it, and I'm pretty sure Lorne-Kates is the only person who uses Firefox in the entire world.


  • sockdevs

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    Firefox 22

    you're still testing on a browser version that is literally years out of EOL?!

    let it die man, let it die.

    Lorne-Kates uses it, and I'm pretty sure Lorne-Kates is the only person who uses Firefox in the entire world.

    and it's still years past end of life. if Lorne-Kates wants to use software that is long past end of life that's his choice, but you shouldn't waste your time and effort supporting a platform version that is no longer supported by the developers of the platform.



  • @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    and it's still years past end of life. if Lorne-Kates wants to use software that is long past end of life that's his choice, but you shouldn't waste your time and effort supporting a platform version that is no longer supported by the developers of the platform.

    +1000.

    I'm generally on board with the community dislike of @wood's community management tactics. But there is a point where actioning someone who's being a dickhead and consuming way more resources than value provided makes sense. And this is one of those cases. If @Lorne-Kates wants to keep using FF 22, that's fine, that's his call. But if he wants to be a dickhead about the forum not working well with a vastly out of support browser, then maybe the forum team needs to give him a warning about being an adult and then take action on his account.

    The invoice for my $0.02 worth is in the mail...


  • sockdevs

    @izzion said in Where are we going with this?:

    maybe the forum team needs to give him a warning about being an adult and then take action on his account.

    if they did that for him there'd be at least two other forum goers they would have to throw out at the same time, and that's not counting the sock puppets.

    still, i agree that we should not spend special effort to support a client software version that is no longer supported by the develoeprs of the software. If the issue can be reproduced on supported version of the software then we should fix them, but if the fix does not resolve the issue on an unsupported version of the browser then... well the version's not supported bu the devleopers and @ben_lubar is not getting paid to support ancient technology.

    now if any users of ancient technology wish to pay @ben_lubar to support their version of client, and @ben_lubar is agreeable to the terms they offer, well that's a different matter.


  • Banned

    @izzion Firefox 22 was released on June of 2013, I wouldn't call that old


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @accalia So wait. This thread is the first you're hearing about :articulated_lorry::kaaba: I mean Lorne-Kates using Mozilla Firebird 0.7?



  • @otter

    It's tech, it's used for the Internet, it's EOS, it's old.
    If he was using one of the ESR releases that was still in support, then I'd be sympathetic to the position that it should be working. But it was never ESR, so it went EOS in August 2013, 36 months ago.


  • Banned

    @izzion I'm sympatethic that CSS and javascript should die in a fire while being nuked from orbit.


  • sockdevs

    @Weng said in Where are we going with this?:

    @accalia So wait. This thread is the first you're hearing about :articulated_lorry::kaaba: I mean Lorne-Kates using Mozilla Firebird 0.7?

    first thread, no. i'm well aware. i'm just being polite and directing my comments in the genral, rather than the specific.

    .... well for a given value of polite anyway.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    I'm pretty sure is the only person who uses Firefox in the entire world.

    Modern FF is preferable to Chrome. But anyways, don't you guys have like some webstats you could look at to figure out what browsers to worry about?


  • sockdevs

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    Modern FF is preferable to Chrome

    the world disagrees.

    Latest released statistics show chrome absolutely dominating the browser market.

    2016	Chrome	IE	Firefox	Safari	Opera
    May	71.4 %	5.7 %	16.9 %	3.6 %	1.2 %
    

    and what versions are those firefox versions?

    2016	Total	FF 48	FF 47	FF 46	FF 45	FF 44	FF 43	FF 42	FF 41	FF 40	FF 39	Older
    May	16.9%	0.1%	0.7%	9.6%	2.5%	0.6%	0.6%	0.2%	0.3%	0.2%	0.2%	1.9%
    

    1.9% of all browsers are firefox < 39. a range that includes firefox 1.0 all the way up to firefox 38. each and every one of those versions are not supported by Mozilla anymore


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    the world disagrees.

    No I'm sorry but this is not a good argument. Was IE 7 the best browser of its day? I didn't think so.

    @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    1.9% of all browsers are firefox < 39. a range that includes firefox 1.0 all the way up to firefox 38. each and every one of those versions are not supported by Mozilla anymore

    I don't get how this is relevant to anything I said.



  • @izzion said in Where are we going with this?:

    If @Lorne-Kates wants to keep using FF 22, that's fine, that's his call. But if he wants to be a dickhead about the forum not working well with a vastly out of support browser, then maybe the forum team needs to give him a warning about being an adult and then take action on his account.

    Point out where I've been a dickhead about shit not working on FF22, vs. shit not working because it was coded dumb and fragile.

    There's shit I accept won't work, and 99% of that shit I don't care about.

    There's shit that fucking should work without being fancy, like positioning an element.

    Consider my browser a canary. If something breaks in my browser, and I don't give a fuck-- that's good. It's optional bells and whistles fluff that, if it doesn't work, doesn't make the site unusable.

    If something breaks in my browser and it's something simple that should work whoops, back that shit up, you're doing something the dumb way.



  • @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    I don't get how this is relevant to anything I said.

    You said modern Firefox.



  • @Lorne-Kates

    Except you're coming to a technical forum, as a technical user, and constantly raising issues that you know full well should be closed "upgrade firefox and reopen if issue persists". You may not be as toxic about it as some of our more esteemed members (and ex members), but being a dick with your actions should be just as unacceptable as being a dick with your words. And the forum community as a whole would be better off if staff / developers didn't have to waste effort doing extra testing against browsers that have been out of support for 36 months because someone has their panties in a twist over the evolution of UI. If you want to live with your head in the sand, please stop wasting forum development time and accept that things are going to be broken / ugly.



  • @izzion said in Where are we going with this?:

    but being a dick with your actions should be just as unacceptable as being a dick with your words.

    Yeah, but we kind of give some leeway to murderers, because you never know who will be next...



  • @otter said in Where are we going with this?:

    @izzion I'm sympatethic that CSS and javascript should die in a fire while being nuked from orbit.

    If you'd like, I can add something to the forum that will skip serving JavaScript to you.


  • area_can

    @ben_lubar said in Where are we going with this?:

    I'm pretty sure is the only person who uses Firefox in the entire world.

    There's tens of us!



  • @Lorne-Kates Is there any reason you use an outdated Firefox?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Zecc said in Where are we going with this?:

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    I don't get how this is relevant to anything I said.

    You said modern Firefox.

    And @accalia's support for disagreeing with me is that 89% of FF users are using supported FFs? Pardon me, I'm still not getting it.


  • sockdevs

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    @Zecc said in Where are we going with this?:

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    I don't get how this is relevant to anything I said.

    You said modern Firefox.

    And @accalia's support for disagreeing with me is that 89% of FF users are using supported FFs? Pardon me, I'm still not getting it.

    my position is that unless @ben_lubar is being compensated a fair rate for his time he should not waste time explicitly testing the forum on a browser version that is nearly three years past end of life.

    If this was a commercial software and a bug report was filed against an old browser you know damn well the response would be to close the ticket with a note to upgrade the browser and repoen if the issue persists.

    Why should we be any different?



  • @izzion said in Where are we going with this?:

    @Lorne-Kates
    Except you're coming to a technical forum, as a technical user, and constantly raising issues that you know full well should be closed "upgrade firefox and reopen if issue persists".

    Again, point out anywhere where I've been a dick about something that is ONLY an issue with FF22. I'll wait.

    @izzion said in Where are we going with this?:

    And the forum community as a whole would be better off if staff / developers didn't have to waste effort doing extra testing against browsers that have been out of support for 36 months because someone has their panties in a twist over the evolution of UI.

    Funny, every time I've raised a UI issue, it's been because It's a goddamn UI issue, and nothing to do with my browser.

    The paging controls overlapping the notification icons? Not a FF22 issue, was shitty css, and happening on multiple browsers.
    The Status thread blank page issue? Not a FF22 issue. Not a browser issue. Shitty counting in NodeBB's backend.
    Post not streaming in? Happening to everyone. Not a FF22 issue.
    Can't paste/drag images into composer? Not a FF22 issue, it's because NodeBB uses a shitty composer that doesn't work.
    The red boob? Okay, partially a FF22 issue-- but only because of stupid, unsupported fancy-ass css. And look at the red boob now. funny enough, applying sane css made it work.

    In conclusion: point out anywhere where I've been a dick about the forum not working ONLY in my version, or go fuck yourself.



  • @groo said in Where are we going with this?:

    @Lorne-Kates Is there any reason you use an outdated Firefox?

    Many:

    1. FF23 changed the icon to a goddamn stupid flat icon. It's a small grievance, but a camel-straw. I hate flat design, and if I'm going to stare at an icon every day, it's going to be the one I like
    2. Every new release of FF gets shittier and shittier. Features get removed. UI gets dropped. They completely fucked the UI with Syphillus or whatever their new look-and-feel was. Bugs don't get fixed. And then they start doing shittier and shittier things like forcing "tiles on new screen", and then putting ads in those tiles.
    3. Fuck new versions for the sake of new versions.

    FF22 was where I drew the line and turned off updates. In the VERY rare occasion where I come across a site that doesn't work (even if I turn off all my privacy plug-ins), I'll fire up a clean Chrome and use the site with that. Or not use the site at all. So far there's been exactly 2 times I consistently need to use Chrome:

    1. Google Maps, if I want to use the advanced features. I don't need those if I'm just looking up an address or directions. If I was to do fancy things like trip planning or dragging around routes, fine. I think it's dumb, since Google Maps used to work just fine in FF22, but whatever.
    2. Any site that REQUIRES TLS 1.2, since that isn't supported. There's only one site I've come across so far. Fantasy Flight games. Which is fucking hilarious, since they aren't even an ecomm shop. It's a fucking catalog site for some card games. There is literally 0 reason to force TLS 1.2. But they do. Even my fucking BANK doesn't force TLS 1.2.

    And even for #2, I can set up a proxy to emulate TLS 1.2 if I wanted.

    So hey, if someone wants to be in charge of creating a "latest" version of FF that:

    1. Supports all my plugins
    2. Does not have the Asscancer theme (and no, Classic Theme Restorer doesn't count)
    3. Has the FF22 icon
    4. Does not have any of the tiles/ads that have been shoved into the modern releases
    5. Has the full feature set of FF22

    Then sure, I'll update. Until then, here I am.

    (I MAY have to upgrade if sites every stop falling back when they can't do RequestAnimateFrame, since that was only introduced in-- I think- FF24)



  • @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    my position is that unless @ben_lubar is being compensated a fair rate for his time he should not waste time explicitly testing the forum on a browser version that is nearly three years past end of life.

    My point is that if shit breaks in FF22, then it's 99% of the time a sign that shit is going to break for every-- either now, or as a timebomb two releases down the road. You're welcome for providing a valuable check-point for QA.



  • @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    he should not waste time explicitly testing the forum

    Yeah, I'm sure the 5 seconds it took me to test that the menu bar did the right thing with two special cases wasn't worth it. No way it's simpler to test it than to have @Lorne-Kates unable to use the forum and then practice Jeff-driven development.



  • @Lorne-Kates Your #1 grievance is that they changed the fucking icon? Sorry, you get no sympathy. Upgrade your fucking browser already.


  • sockdevs

    @Lorne-Kates said in Where are we going with this?:

    You're welcome for providing a valuable check-point for QA.

    I welcome QA, but you must realize that any sand developer, particularly one who is not getting paid for their support time, should close your bug report citing an issue with FF22 as invalid with a note to upgrade your browser and reopen the ticket if the issue persists.

    Matters would be different if the developers in question were being paid to support your browser version, or if your browser version was current.

    @NedFodder said in Where are we going with this?:

    @Lorne-Kates Your #1 grievance is that they changed the fucking icon? Sorry, you get no sympathy. Upgrade your fucking browser already.

    does @Lorne-Kates not know you can set custom icons? he can have the icon to firefox be an icon of his dick if he wants.

    i'd question his taste if he did want, but he can if he wants.



  • @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    sand developer

    asdf

    Wow, it's just like software development.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @xaade said in Where are we going with this?:

    Dropdown menus are evil... apparently...

    Yes. Yes they are.


  • area_can

    @NedFodder he also said that they drop features like crazy in exchange for new things that aren't very useful. As someone who's used FF for quite a while, I agree. For example:

    • Pocket
    • they removed tab groups for some reason
    • Hello (tm)
    • they're removing 3D view in the next update
    • australis (i.e. let's add a menu button that you absolutely cannot remove or customize without extension)
    • no more 3D view
    • 3D view is going to be removed

  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @bb36e said in Where are we going with this?:

    @NedFodder he also said that they drop features like crazy in exchange for new things that aren't very useful. As someone who's used FF for quite a while, I agree. For example:

    • Pocket
    • they removed tab groups for some reason
    • Hello (tm)
    • they're removing 3D view in the next update
    • australis (i.e. let's add a menu button that you absolutely cannot remove or customize without extension)
    • no more 3D view
    • 3D view is going to be removed

    I never thought 3D was useful, but I've been on aurora anyways for so long that I haven't had it for a while.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @sloosecannon said in Where are we going with this?:

    @xaade said in Where are we going with this?:

    Dropdown menus are evil... apparently...

    Yes. Yes they are.

    In comparison to hambugger [sic] menus?


  • area_can

    @pydsigner I don't think it's very useful either, but I always thought it was dumb and fun to dick around with.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @accalia said in Where are we going with this?:

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    @Zecc said in Where are we going with this?:

    @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    I don't get how this is relevant to anything I said.

    You said modern Firefox.

    And @accalia's support for disagreeing with me is that 89% of FF users are using supported FFs? Pardon me, I'm still not getting it.

    my position is that unless @ben_lubar is being compensated a fair rate for his time he should not waste time explicitly testing the forum on a browser version that is nearly three years past end of life.

    If this was a commercial software and a bug report was filed against an old browser you know damn well the response would be to close the ticket with a note to upgrade the browser and repoen if the issue persists.

    Why should we be any different?

    Ok so a :woosh: for you. I never anywhere said that anyone should or should not support FF 22. I was talking about FF in general and "modern FF" (i.e. not the crashy trainwreck from two summers ago) specifically.



  • @pydsigner said in Where are we going with this?:

    And @accalia's support for disagreeing with me is that 89% of FF users are using supported FFs? Pardon me, I'm still not getting it.

    I had a brain fart and read things the opposite of what I should. Carry on.


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