Turkish Coup



  • @boomzilla As US gun laws also don't play a role in the EU, I'm still not seeing how it's relevant to the refugee issue.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Rhywden But you're not the on-topic cop, so I guess you'll just have to suffer though it.



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    @Rhywden But you're not the on-topic cop, so I guess you'll just have to suffer though it.

    As you were the one trying to answer my question, I find that moderately amusing.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    As you were the one trying to answer my question, I find that moderately amusing.

    As you were replying to a discussion that was had strayed from EU refugee policy or whatever, I find that characteristically unobservant.



  • @Rhywden Given that the Muslims they found during that rape situation with the "oh they're just trying to steal purses" happened to be pre-existing refugees and not new ones from Syria.
    And the fact that they caught fake passports coming from Greece.

    I imagine it happens often enough to care about it.

    Oh, and many of the recent terror attacks in America that were from Muslims.... refugees...

    I guess we should all leave our doors unlocked now. Since so few houses are actually burgled.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    @Rhywden Given that the Muslims they found during that rape situation with the "oh they're just trying to steal purses" happened to be pre-existing refugees and not new ones from Syria.
    And the fact that they caught fake passports coming from Greece.

    I imagine it happens often enough to care about it.

    Oh, and many of the recent terror attacks in America that were from Muslims.... refugees...

    I guess we should all leave our doors unlocked now. Since so few houses are actually burgled.

    Oh, yes, you "imagine". That doesn't surprise me at all.

    And which "recent terror attacks in America by refugees" would that be exactly?

    And sure, terrorists are burglars as well. It's their sidejob, I presume.

    Geeze.



  • @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    And which "recent terror attacks in America by refugees" would that be exactly?



  • @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    And sure, terrorists are burglars as well. It's their sidejob, I presume.

    That was a comparison.

    "Burglary doesn't happen often enough to justify locking our doors"



  • @xaade Right. So, two guys were arrested for lying.

    Lying now constitutes a "terror attack".

    Fuck this FUD.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    Fuck this FUD.

    Why are you back in here, anyways?



  • @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    Lying now constitutes a "terror attack".

    That's deceptive.

    The 23-year-old Sacramento college student was nabbed training with ISIS in Syria and then lying about it to authorities.

    A little more than... "lying".

    This is exactly the person coming from Syria that we want to STOP from entering.

    Husband and wife 'terror' team: Ramic Hodzic (left) and his wife Sedina (right) both of St Louis, MO, face trial over allegations they gathered cash to buy military equipment for ISIS fighters in Syria

    Jonas Edmonds (left) planned to use his cousin Hasan's (right) inside knowledge of the National Guard to kill scores at the Illinois Guard Armory, according to prosecutors

    Roommates Noelle Velentzas and Asia Siddiqui allegedly stockpiled gas tanks, fertilizer and a pressure cooker in an apparent bid to emulate Boston marathon bomber

    But, you know, none of these are terrorist attacks, because we caught them.

    So, terrorism doesn't happen anymore. It's all a myth.

    They didn't enter as refugees, but they claimed asylum.

    But you know, we can't suspect anyone seeking asylum so they won't be deported when they're caught making bombs...

    :rolleyes:



  • The safer route is finding them homes in Saudi Arabia and other wealthy Muslim nations who can afford to relocate them. And where they’ll feel more at home, and less angry with their host.

    I will argue that this person has no idea about Saudi vs. Syria and the difference in their respect of freedom of religion.

    I would never hope that an innocent Syrian refugee end up in Saudi.


  • BINNED

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    the on-topic cop

    Is that position still available? And does it come a gun or should I supply my own? That last might be a bit challenging.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Luhmann said in Turkish Coup:

    Is that position [on-topic cop] still available?

    Blazing Saddles - Nobody move or ... – 01:03
    — LearningBase33


  • BINNED

    @boomzilla
    Can we get the On-Topic Cop in here to get this thing back on track?



  • We can push it all to the political trollery, starting with my first post.


  • BINNED

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    first post.

    What are you talking about? First Post can't be off topic by definition.



  • @Luhmann The first post by @xaade, not the first post of the thread.



  • @Luhmann said in Turkish Coup:

    First Post can't be off topic by definition

    You have less respect for @xaade's secret superpower than is due.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    It's not hard to get new ones, even without obviously doing so.

    Officially? It's not supposed to be difficult, but the new ones are registered to you so it's also not a problem. If you do it unofficially, you're going to get a roadside interview.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Also, you can take them off another vehicle.

    You're going to get a roadside interview.

    I didn't start this to argue about gun registration, I started it to point out your inconsistent position that it's indefensible to talk about acceptable sacrifices of your own citizens.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Ok, so I think we've reasonably established that there are right ways to handle security and handle gun and vehicle availability, and there are wrong ways.

    Right, and "no documentation, you're out" that you were advocating for is one of the wrong ways.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    To me, it's reasonable to believe that Greece was not effectively controlling their borders.

    They can't even control their taxation so I'm not sure what you expect from them. Also they have a maritime border which is far more difficult to police than the land borders of France, Germany, and most of the other nations doing the complaining.

    Also also, I'm not sure if the statistics are similar in the EU but the vast majority (I think around 97%) of people who arrive in Australia by boat are eventually given refugee status. These people really are in need of asylum and the tiny minority are @boomzilla's economic migrants or @xaade's criminals.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    I would never hope that an innocent Syrian refugeeanyone end up in Saudi.

    FTFM



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    consistently around 27 percent of the total inmate population from 2001 though 2004

    How many non-criminal aliens?
    How many of those criminal aliens had a record before they immigrated?



  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    If you do it unofficially, you're going to get a roadside interview.

    Only if checked. You seem to overestimate the capacity of highway patrol to check every license plate.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I started it to point out your inconsistent position that it's indefensible to talk about acceptable sacrifices of your own citizens.

    Only if you ignore every single factor of the two scenarios because they aren't comparable at all. In your argument acceptable sacrifice would extend to everything a person dies from. Sidewalks would be destroyed if someone tripped on them.

    It's quite different when the argument for acceptable sacrifice applies to someone crossing the border. You don't think it's an acceptable sacrifice to leave your door unlocked if a member of your family dies to a criminal. Why the border?

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Right, and "no documentation, you're out" that you were advocating for is one of the wrong ways.

    How is it wrong? Please, tell me, by what standard are we obligated to take in refugees? You keep begging that question to make your comparisons.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    They can't even control their taxation so I'm not sure what you expect from them. Also they have a maritime border which is far more difficult to police than the land borders of France, Germany, and most of the other nations doing the complaining.

    So... This is continually compared to states within the US, but it's not that way at all. States and nations are completely different. Germany is not obligated to put its nation at risk because Greece failed to protect its borders. There is no federal government that has the job to protect the borders. If the EU created its own army and policed the borders for the countries, that would be more like what we have in the US.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    How many of those criminal aliens had a record before they immigrated?

    A better question is "how many of those criminal aliens committed an additional crime". Quite honestly, I don't care whether the murder they committed occurred on our side of the border or not. We have no obligation to allow a murderer to stay in our country. If a murderer crosses the border, we kick them out. If someone murders within our borders and they crossed illegally, we kick them out. And that's if we don't use capital punishment.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Only if checked. You seem to overestimate the capacity of highway patrol to check every license plate.

    What kind of shitty third-world country are you living in?

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Sidewalks would be destroyed if someone tripped on them.

    Hey dude, it was your statement, not mine. It's a ludicrous, poorly thought out statement.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    by what standard are we obligated to take in refugees?

    By international law of course. Are you unaware of this or do you choose to just ignore international law when it's convenient to do so? The USA commonly does that so it's not without precedent.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Quite honestly, I don't care whether the murder they committed occurred on our side of the border or not.

    How do you hope to exclude these criminals if they haven't committed a crime yet and/or don't have a criminal record? Do you have special mind-reading powers?

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    We have no obligation to allow a murderer to stay in our country. If a murderer crosses the border, we kick them out. If someone murders within our borders and they crossed illegally, we kick them out.

    Yeah yeah yeah, nobody is arguing against this. We do this too. I don't know of any country that doesn't, although I guess it's likely that some just don't care, but those are the countries people are running away from, not towards.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    And that's if we don't use capital punishment.

    Vindictive barbarians.



  • @asdf said in Turkish Coup:

    @otter I'm sure this coup will magically make everyone change their religion and solve all issues with Islamist extremism.

    ...Oh, wait, the effect will be exactly the opposite.

    Also, bonus points for using the word "Islam" when you actually mean "theocracy". Great argument there.

    Except that the difference is mostly imaginary. People imagine that Islam is more or less like other religions. But in reality, Islam is a hybrid religion-political/legal system. You can find influences of other religions in politics ("Thou shalt not kill", etc.), but it is not explicitly and eternally commanded by their founders.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    How many non-criminal aliens?

    Most of them, I'm sure, just like the rest of the population.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    How many of those criminal aliens had a record before they immigrated?

    You should ask them.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    By international law of course. Are you unaware of this or do you choose to just ignore international law when it's convenient to do so? The USA commonly does that so it's not without precedent.

    Yeah..."international law" is bullshit. If it's a treaty that we agreed to, then it's effectively US law. Otherwise...You and what army?



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Most of them, I'm sure, just like the rest of the population.

    So stopping all immigration just to reduce crime isn't reasonable or even effective.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    You should ask them.

    I asked you because you had the stats, but I really want @xaade to find an answer to support his "stop the boatscriminals" argument.



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Yeah..."international law" is bullshit. If it's a treaty that we agreed to, then it's effectively US law. Otherwise...You and what army?

    You signed on to many treaties you like to ignore, but I don't know if you guys signed on to this one. We did but we still don't let that stop us indefinitely detaining all the brown people who arrive by boat. White people who arrive by boat sometimes get to be Prime Minister for a short while.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    So stopping all immigration just to reduce crime isn't reasonable or even effective.

    Possibly, though your strawman isn't reasonable or effective either.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I asked you because you had the stats, but I really want @xaade to find an answer to support his "stop the boatscriminals" argument.

    You could read those links as well as I could, I suspect. But if we at least sent back the illegal immigrants who committed additional crimes beyond their illegal entry it would be nice. And you're a terrible person for suggesting that we shouldn't be doing even that.


    Filed Under: Counter strawman!


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    You signed on to many treaties you like to ignore

    Such as? I'm sure news of our violations gets more play outside the country, so I may just ignorant here.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    We did but we still don't let that stop us indefinitely detaining all the brown people who arrive by boat.

    What treaty does that violate? I wasn't aware of any such thing.



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Possibly, though your strawman isn't reasonable or effective either.

    I didn't think I made a strawman but I may have done it by mistake. Where?

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    But if we at least sent back the illegal immigrants who committed additional crimes beyond their illegal entry it would be nice.

    Illegal immigrants or refugees? There's a massive difference that a lot of people like to ignore and it absolutely should affect how you treat them.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    And you're a terrible person for suggesting that we shouldn't be doing even that.

    I didn't do that! I said:

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Yeah yeah yeah, nobody is arguing against this.

    in response to kicking out murderers. I took that to imply other criminal activity as well. I don't think many people have a problem with deporting or refusing immigration to criminals.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I didn't think I made a strawman but I may have done it by mistake. Where?

    The bit about getting rid of immigration in order to stop crime. I dunno...maybe @xaade floated something like that. I mostly just skim his posts unless he mentions me. If he did, then your offense is slightly (but only just!) less for taking his post seriously. Consider yourself reprimanded.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Illegal immigrants or refugees? There's a massive difference that a lot of people like to ignore and it absolutely should affect how you treat them.

    True. But possibly less so once they become felons.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I didn't do that!

    Haha! You also didn't pay attention to the tag.



  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    we still don't let that stop us indefinitely detaining all the brown people who arrive by boat.

    Ah, but do you detain the green lizard people?



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Such as? I'm sure news of our violations gets more play outside the country, so I may just ignorant here.

    You missed the whole "enhanced interrogation" thing? That went all the way from sleep deprivation and waterboarding to rape, murder and outright torture.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    What treaty does that violate? I wasn't aware of any such thing.

    I don't know what it's called, something refugee something something? I have no idea. I care less about what it's called and more about treating humans decently.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    You missed the whole "enhanced interrogation" thing? That went all the way from sleep deprivation and waterboarding to rape, murder and outright torture.

    What the fuck? Rape, murder, torture?

    Fuck off with waterboarding. We do that to our own airmen and stuff.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I don't know what it's called, something refugee something something? I have no idea.

    Sounds like one of those things everyone thinks is true but isn't.



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    maybe @xaade floated something like that

    He did. I've heard it before, even from non-Internet people. I think there's a famous guy in your country that suggested it a little while ago. He's currently in some kind of popularity contest. Rich famous guy, can't think of his name. The guy with the ridiculous comb-over.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Haha! You also didn't pay attention to the tag.

    I did not. You may consider me got.



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    What the fuck? Rape, murder, torture?

    Those were the claims from Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Fuck off with waterboarding. We do that to our own airmen and stuff.

    ... and that makes it not torture? Fuck off yourself.

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    Sounds like one of those things everyone thinks is true but isn't.

    Maybe. Don't make me look it up.

    Damn it, you made me look it up. There's the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees which you guys are not party to and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees which you guys are party to.

    Looking for that I found http://www.roads-to-refuge.com.au/whois/whois_government.html which says:

    When asylum seekers and refugees are in Australia (including the sea), the Australian Government has obligations under various international human rights treaties (such as the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights) to ensure that people's human rights are respected and protected. These rights include the right not to be detained without reason.

    So you may think it's hypocritical of me to criticise you when we don't follow our obligations, except I didn't vote for either of the parties that support our current abuses.



  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Illegal immigrants or refugees? There's a massive difference that a lot of people like to ignore and it absolutely should affect how you treat them.

    IMO, if an immigrant that illegally crossed the border, or a refugee, murders someone, we either:

    1. Treat it like we do our citizens, including capital punishment.
    2. We deport them.

    Nothing else is acceptable to me.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I don't think many people have a problem with deporting or refusing immigration to criminals.

    And if you can't establish identity?

    @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    The bit about getting rid of immigration in order to stop crime.

    I'm only suggesting that if we can't establish identity, we don't let them in.

    And he keeps insisting that there's some way other than id to establish identity in an equally trustworthy manner.

    If we had some local id that we could cross-reference (finger print, retinal scan, etc). But if we're talking about people who don't bother to get passports, I don't see how we'd have that either.

    Yes, someone can fake a passport, but they have to match the identity of the person somewhat (image, dimensions, etc).

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    He did.

    At some point I did suggest that you could block immigration from certain countries to accomplish what Trump wanted to do in a logical manner.

    I never suggested you block all immigration, do a religion test, etc.

    Look, I don't even like Trump. However, I see him no different than McCain, or Obama, etc. Obama said get out of Iraq, and now we're in Syria, so I don't know why people seem to overlook that. Thanks to Obama, ISIS is armed in Syria, so we might not even be here if Obama didn't try to destabilize Syria in the same manner Bush destabilized Iraq.

    "The leader is bad, we need to blow random people up to kill really bad people. And we need to drum up some rebellion to support. It's totes not about oil." - Bush/Obama

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Those were the claims from Abu Ghraib and elsewhere.

    Yeah, and then we released some really bad guys from Guantanamo, instead of the innocent ones, and bad shit happened. Hell, we even traded 5 fucked up people for 1 deserter, for reasons...

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    When asylum seekers... human rights are respected.

    Boston marathon bombers.

    "We think you're building bombs."
    "We applied for asylum, where's your warrant."
    explosion outside
    "That would be our warrant"



  • @boomzilla said in Turkish Coup:

    I dunno...maybe @xaade floated something like that.

    He exaggerates and misrepresents everything I said.

    When I imply how you could accomplish something similar in a logical way, he then counts that as supporting exactly what the crazy people support.

    There is no room for a Moderate in his eyes if they don't agree exactly with him.

    I'm even considered a left leaning moderate when I take political tests, but nope, to @another_sam, I'm a right nut-winger teabagger.

    You represent everything that people who agree with you also support. Except if you're liberal, then you never have to answer for the extreme regressive left. Those people are fringe and they don't exist all of the sudden.



  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    We did but we still don't let that stop us indefinitely detaining all the brown people who arrive by boat. White people who arrive by boat sometimes get to be Prime Minister for a short while.

    Really? Which prime minister was it? Oh wait, you're comparing apples and oranges, aren't you?



  • @Deadfast said in Turkish Coup:

    Really? Which prime minister was it? Oh wait, you're comparing apples and oranges, aren't you?

    I was being facetious, but the answer to your question is Tony Abbott.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Treat it like we do our citizens

    That's fine.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    including capital punishment.

    Whoa! Fucking barbarians.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    And if you can't establish identity?

    I don't have a good answer to this. I don't even know if there is a good answer.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    And he keeps insisting that there's some way other than id to establish identity in an equally trustworthy manner.

    What's trustworthy about ID from a foreign government in a destabilised place like Syria where any looter can find a passport with a photo that looks similar to them? When there is no government, how do people get a passport? When ISIS are the government, why would you trust anything they issued? How can you expect people fleeing more-or-less in panic to stop and grab their travel documents? They're not going on a planned holiday, they're running for their lives. If they've never left their village they might not even have a driver's licence. If you're Rohingya in Myanmar you're not a citizen, barely even a person, so I'm not sure how they get passports. What about children who's parents haven't survived the journey? How do you even know who owns which child? Won't somebody please think of the children!

    The rest of your post is your usual gibberish so I don't know how to respond. Bush? Obama? Boston Marathon bombing? I don't know how these things are relevant and you haven't said.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    I'm even considered a left leaning moderate when I take political tests

    Whut? Nobody who advocates for the death penalty is moderate. Nobody who advocates a blanket ban on immigration from any country is moderate. I've seen some views from you that tend towards moderate but nowhere near Left and many that are Right.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    You represent everything that people who agree with you also support

    Well, yeah. Isnt' that a tautology?

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Except if you're liberal, then you never have to answer for the extreme regressive left.

    No I don't. They're not me. They're as crazy as a gun-totin' Republican voting abortion clinic bombing anarchocapitalist Texan and I won't defend them.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Those people are fringe and they don't exist all of the sudden.

    Yes they're fringe. Yes they do exist. No I'm not associated with them.


  • BINNED

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    @Rhywden said in Turkish Coup:

    And which "recent terror attacks in America by refugees" would that be exactly?

    :wtf: is an ex-explorer? New-chrome, or new-safari? or maybe new-natilus?



  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Whoa! Fucking barbarians.

    Yeah, I know right. Barbaric to kill someone who's killed multiple people. We have to be the better people yada yada.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I don't have a good answer to this. I don't even know if there is a good answer.

    Well, at least we're at the same place.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    any looter can find a passport with a photo that looks similar to them

    Racist!

    But seriously, what's the point in passports at all then.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    How can you expect people fleeing more-or-less in panic to stop and grab their travel documents?

    If they have them, then this is pretty ridiculous. Maybe it's because my wife is foreign, but we always know where ours are.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Won't somebody please think of the children!

    Like I've said before, I have a lot of respect for the charities that have operated and continue to operate in Syria despite the danger.

    This whole argument predicates that immigration is the best solution.

    1. We can't even begin to immigrate them all.
    2. We can't even begin to expect that they can all escape.

    I mean, have you looked at how many people in the world could arguably be helped by immigration to western countries? There's no way in hell that they can all be helped by immigration. None.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Nobody who advocates for the death penalty is moderate.

    That's your opinion. I'm quite left leaning when it comes to regulation. I just don't agree with the proposed regulation that's often used. You're not moderate because you're in the middle on every single issue. If we're going to cherry pick issues, I'm sure I can make you out to be whatever I want. If I were as right leaning as you supposed, then I'd be almost anarchist when it comes to free market, and I'm not. I support regulations that protect free market for everyone, rather than allowing companies to leverage power to kick people out of the free market.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Nobody who advocates a blanket ban on immigration from any country is moderate.

    You mean like Carter did? And he's WAAAAYYYYY left. Not only did that, but straight up DEPORTED kids attending college.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Well, yeah. Isnt' that a tautology?

    No, it's not.

    If someone liked your views on Muslim immigration, but they also want to kill all [other minority], does that mean you're a racist?

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    They're as crazy as a gun-totin' Republican voting abortion clinic bombing anarchocapitalist Texan and I won't defend them.

    Then don't expect me to defend every person that follows Trump, when I don't even like Trump.



  • @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Barbaric to kill someone who's killed multiple people

    Yes. Also expensive. It's applied disproportionately to minorities, especially blacks. It achieves nothing. But I think we've been through all this before.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    But seriously, what's the point in passports at all then.

    I didn't say they have no point, I'm saying your simplistic view is unreasonable and ineffective.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    If they have them

    on them already, you mean. Do you take your passport to work? What if you're not home (or wherever your passport is) and you need to flee in a hurry?

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    This whole argument predicates that immigration is the best solution.

    Not my argument. My argument is that those who make it should be assessed to see if they are genuine refugees, then admitted or deported based on that assessment. Indefinite detention is not on. Blanket bans are not on.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    I support regulations that protect free market for everyone, rather than allowing companies to leverage power to kick people out of the free market.

    That's what the right-wing nutjobs always say! They just disagree on which regulations are good and which are bad.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    If someone liked your views on Muslim immigration, but they also want to kill all [other minority], does that mean you're a racist?

    No, but that's pretty much backwards from what you said the first time.

    @xaade said in Turkish Coup:

    Then don't expect me to defend every person that follows Trump

    I don't. I do expect you to defend the ideas you have put forward, and they happen to be the same as those Trump has put forward. They're not bad because Trump said it, but Trump is bad because he said it.





  • @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    Yes. Also expensive

    Only when you use complicated methods.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    It's applied disproportionately to minorities, especially blacks.

    Did they or did they not murder multiple people? I don't see how this is an unjust concept.

    You're arguing that the justice system is unfair to black people, but outside of implying heavily that it should treat black people differently (with favor instead of disfavor in mind), I don't get what your point is.

    If someone murders multiple people, practically every philosophical system allows us to kill them. Utilitarianism, deontology, on and on.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    It achieves nothing.

    It doesn't achieve what you want, which is reformation. It absolutely removes someone that can't seem to avoid killing people.

    If your goal is to prevent crime, or some other unreasonable thing, then nothing accomplishes that. Why have laws at all...

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I didn't say they have no point, I'm saying your simplistic view is unreasonable and ineffective.

    "Test the passports"
    "That's simplistic and unreasonable and ineffective. There are other ways to vet people."
    "And if those other ways don't work?"
    "I don't know. I'm uncomfortable with denying their entry."

    In another conversation.

    "There are people that don't want to deny entry, even if they fail to be vetted."
    "Who's saying that?"

    The fact of the matter is that you don't feel comfortable securing borders because someone innocent may not be allowed in. I understand that completely. But like I've said countless times, there are ways to help people other than immigration which has little scope and doesn't solve the instigating problem.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    That's what the right-wing nutjobs always say! They just disagree on which regulations are good and which are bad.

    There's a difference between offering such a statement as a token to avoid criticism and actually believing it. But it's much easier for you to shove everyone in a nutwing box so that we can't discuss which are the good regulations.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    No, but that's pretty much backwards from what you said the first time.

    No it's not. You just choose not to read, or you choose to purposefully misinterpret what I'm saying.

    @another_sam said in Turkish Coup:

    I do expect you to defend the ideas you have put forward, and they happen to be the same as those Trump has put forward.

    Bullshit.

    Please show me where I've said that I would ban immigration of Muslims.

    Please... show me where I've said that.

    Just because I've said that there are people that don't want to have any security at the border, and mince words to avoid looking like that is the case, doesn't mean I've supported banning immigration from Muslims.

    I've said that Muslims that already live in our countries would benefit from such a ban, and that they've supported Trump, and that should at least get our attention.

    But I haven't supported it once.



  • @another_sam

    You seem to spend a lot of time mincing words so that it doesn't look like to oppose any attempt of a country to secure its borders.

    And then when confronted with that, you just claim any attempt at border security is treating the situation too simplistic.

    However, you're begging the question that we need to treat refugees as anything other than a graceful gesture, and that citizens are not the priority.

    It's pointless to discuss this further.

    You've created a situation where we inherently cannot resolve it.


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