Why is polygamy illegal?
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@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
It's hiding that sword behind it's back. At least it thinks it's doing it, dumb animal.
Quoted before deletion.
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@abarker said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
No more than 5% of the church members ever participated in polygamy at any given time.
The article posted by @Karla suggests that's enough to create problems.
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@another_sam Everything causes problems. That doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (not agnosticism, atheism)
Like not collecting stamps is a hobby?
Remember some time ago I said that religion can have a corrupting influence on people and their decision making? You're giving me an example right here.
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@Polygeekery said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Everything causes problems. That doesn't necessarily mean it should be illegal.
I absolutely agree. Polygeekery is a terrible idea and there are very good reasons to not do it but that alone isn't enough to justify outlawing it.
Hang on, I think I mistyped a word there...
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@another_sam What you did there...I see it.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You can say, scientifically that there is no observation that confirms the existence of a god, or that our most accurate knowledge to date does not support a god.
However, you can't say a god doesn't exist.Bertrand Russell would like to have a chat to you about a teapot.
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@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You can say, scientifically that there is no observation that confirms the existence of a god, or that our most accurate knowledge to date does not support a god.
However, you can't say a god doesn't exist.Bertrand Russell would like to have a chat to you about a teapot.
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@another_sam identifying yourself as someone who believes something that is impossible to prove with logic, such as the non existence of anything, is about as irrational as it gets. Just saying 'i don't know and I don't care' is considerably more sane.
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@Magus if a god exists and hates non believers I reject him for being unfair.
if a god exists, and wants me to believe something, he would tell me directly and in a sufficiently convincing way.
therefore, or god doesn't care what I believe, don't exists, or isn't worth believing.
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@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (not agnosticism, atheism)
Like not collecting stamps is a hobby?
Can you explain why you think that's an appropriate analogy?
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion
"If atheism is a religion, then abstinence is a sexual position."
- Bill Maher"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour"
- Don Hirschberg
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
However, you can't say a god doesn't exist.
In order to do so, such a statement becomes a belief, and is no longer scientific.True, but you can say "I do not believe in God" rather than "I believe there is no God" and live as if there is no God in lieu of further evidence.
Plenty of people are religious in their atheism but a lot are not.
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
since no such compelling evidence exists that demonstrates that God doesn't exist, your belief is one of faith
Occam's razor suggests assuming there is no God until you have reason to change your mind.
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@Jaloopa belief != religion
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@fbmac I still maintain that the more insufferable atheists are generally religious about it
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@Jaloopa All religion is stupid, but not all stupid is religion
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@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the more insufferable atheists
You mean the ones that believe that God Is Not, and feel the need to tell you all about it over and over? Jehovah's Non-Existence Provers?
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@dkf the kind who think all believers should be stoned for the blasphemy of not believing in the Great Prophets Dawkins and deGrasse Tyson
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@dkf said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the more insufferable atheists
You mean the ones that believe that God Is Not, and feel the need to tell you all about it over and over? Jehovah's Non-Existence Provers?
Generally anyone who enters an argument with the explicit purpose of telling you how you are wrong and they are right is doomed from the start.
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Generally anyone who enters an argument with the explicit purpose of telling you how you are wrong and they are right is doomed from the start.
That's a religious proselytiser approach, yes, and the techniques can be used to try to persuade people to adopt any system of belief, including those that are supposedly atheist. It must be a fairly effective technique, to be quite honest, because it is so commonly used. All of which goes to show that religiosity is not the same thing as belief in God.
I don't know whether it is possible to believe in God yet also be non-religious. :)
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@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Occam's razor suggests assuming there is no God until you have reason to change your mind.
You do know that Occam was a priest?
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@dkf said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
I don't know whether it is possible to believe in God yet also be non-religious.
on the disc, the Gods are not so much worshipped as blamed.
“Gods are all right,” said Granny, as they ate their lunch and looked at the view. “You don’t bother gods, and gods don’t come bothering you.”
Wizards don’t believe in gods in the same way that most people don’t find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they’re there, they know they’re there for a purpose, they’d probably agree that they have a place in a well-organized universe, but they wouldn’t see the point of believing, of going around saying, “O great table, without whom we are as naught.” Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
These are all Discworld quotes, but there's a point. Once you get outside of the Judeo-Christian paradigm, the nature of the belief and the approach to religion can vary widely, and could take forms that we wouldn't necessarily consider to be religious.
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@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Like not collecting stamps is a hobby?
No, but making a point to spend time not collecting stamps, and form a group of non-stamp collectors, is a hobby.
Which makes the behavior of some atheists even more bizarre.
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@fbmac Notably different conclusion from "there is no god".
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How about David Hume then, on the subject of miracles, which most major religions hold to be real (Moses parting the Red Sea, Christ rising from the dead, afterlife, reincarnation, et al.):
David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature; and as a firm and unalterable experience has established these laws, the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact, is as entire as any argument from experience can possibly be imagined. Why is it more than probable, that all men must die; that lead cannot, of itself, remain suspended in the air; that fire consumes wood, and is extinguished by water; unless it be, that these events are found agreeable to the laws of nature, and there is required a violation of these laws, or in other words, a miracle to prevent them? Nothing is esteemed a miracle, if it ever happen in the common course of nature. It is no miracle that a man, seemingly in good health, should die on a sudden: because such a kind of death, though more unusual than any other, has yet been frequently observed to happen. But it is a miracle, that a dead man should come to life; because that has never been observed in any age or country. There must, therefore, be a uniform experience against every miraculous event, otherwise the event would not merit that appellation....
The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), 'That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish....' When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.
In the foregoing reasoning we have supposed, that the testimony, upon which a miracle is founded, may possibly amount to an entire proof, and that the falsehood of that testimony would be a real prodigy: But it is easy to shew, that we have been a great deal too liberal in our concession, and that there never was a miraculous event established on so full an evidence.
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@boomzilla said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (not agnosticism, atheism)
Like not collecting stamps is a hobby?
Can you explain why you think that's an appropriate analogy?
Nope.
It's non-sequitur disguised as reductio ad absurdum.
He's just so snide about it by this point that he's incapable of recognizing it.
That's another thing I find funny about some atheists. How incredible snide they are, and how paranoid they are that people with religious beliefs have brains and make decisions. People with irrational unfounded stupid beliefs about economics make decisions all the time, but nope, this particular irrational group will be the demise of us all.
@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
True, but you can say "I do not believe in God" rather than "I believe there is no God" and live as if there is no God in lieu of further evidence.
Notably different, and perfectly sane.
@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Occam's razor suggests assuming there is no God until you have reason to change your mind.
Yes, but it's something that you admit and are conscious of. Atheists are obstinate in their belief and do not admit anything.
@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
belief != religion
I agree, but it's not just the belief. It's also the surrounding culture.
God could show up in fanfare on their doorstep, and they'd ask what planet he came from.
@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
All religion is stupid,
Not necessarily.
If some people benefit in some ways exclusively from religion, then it's stupid not to participate and forgo those benefits just to have people pat you on the back for being rational. It's similar to keeping a non-violence position during a zombie apocalypse.
@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the kind who think all believers should be stoned for the blasphemy of not believing in the Great Prophets Dawkins and deGrasse Tyson
Not quite stoned. But there are some that suggested removing their kids from them as it's child abuse, and limiting their freedoms and ability to vote.
@dkf said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You mean the ones that believe that God Is Not, and feel the need to tell you all about it over and over? Jehovah's Non-Existence Provers?
You act like these people don't exist. Have you read comments on Facebook / YouTube
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@antiquarian said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
These are all Discworld quotes, but there's a point. Once you get outside of the Judeo-Christian paradigm, the nature of the belief and the approach to religion can vary widely, and could take forms that we wouldn't necessarily consider to be religious.
And all of those were more or less sane compared to atheism.
You see, there is no way to prove God, even if God were to come right up to you and perform miracles, it's an advanced alien lifeform, and those miracles are advanced bio-technology.
So, God decides to show you how he created everything in the past... it's a holographic display, or a time-machine.
And even if you admitted that God indeed created Earth or even reality. He's just in a higher order of reality, etc.
No matter what, acknowledging God takes faith.
Therefore, when an atheist says there's no evidence of God, or they'd otherwise acknowledge Him, they're just admitting that they haven't reached the point of faith.
You see, God (specifically Godhood) firmly exists in the philosophical, along with theories that reality isn't real, that we're all in a philosophical matrix, freewill, even that I exist.
Even Cartesian doubt came to the wrong conclusion. "I think therefore I am" could be equally an illusion.
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@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
IMO atheism is a religion, and has all the marks of one. (not agnosticism, atheism)
Like not collecting stamps is a hobby?
Remember some time ago I said that religion can have a corrupting influence on people and their decision making? You're giving me an example right here.
Unlike "hobby", the definition of religion is sufficiently broad that you almost can't not have one. Whatever attitudes, beliefs, and practices you hold to, which are relating to an ultimate reality, are a "religion".
If your ultimate reality is that there isn't a god (or at least, none that affects you in any measurable way), and your attitudes, beliefs, and practices acknowledge this reality, that is by definition a kind of religion.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
when an atheist says there's no evidence of God, or they'd otherwise acknowledge Him, they're just admitting that they haven't reached the point of faith.
There are plenty of ex-believers who now describe themselves as atheists, which demonstrates unambiguously that this claim is simply false.
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It doesn't make the claim false.
If a believer decided to believe God doesn't exist. Then they've decided that they believe there is no God despite it being impossible to discover evidence that there is no God.
What they're really admitting is that they are unwilling to acknowledge a God.
Now, they may experience or observe something that has them regain faith in God, but they do so without evidence.
Now, they may experience or observe many things and continue to assert there is no God, even though they cannot obtain evidence that he doesn't exist.
So they either have or have not yet reached the point where they have faith in God.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Now, they may experience or observe many things and continue to assert there is no God, even though they cannot obtain evidence that he doesn't exist.
This a lot of
. You don't have to prove that god doesn't exist to realize that nearly every major religion makes some claims that are clearly absurd.OK, so maybe it's possible to believe that god exists but that miracles, the afterlife, etc do not. At that point, "god" isn't a very useful concept - belief or non-belief in a god that simply exists without further consequences changes literally nothing. So we can't disprove god, but we've disproved nearly every consequence of having a god, and the difference between those two things is negligible.
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the difference between those two things is negligible
That rather depends on exactly what one conceives of as the referent of the word "God".
For example, if one took a pantheist position and decided that "God" and "everything" are two words with identical referents, then disproving the consequences of having a God would become quite difficult :).
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This is the point I'm trying to make.
If you're agnostic atheist, then you shouldn't really care what others think.
The only people that would care are gnostic atheists, and those people better have some good evidence for what they believe, because they constantly shove their assertion down everyone's throats. They Bible bash as much as gnostic theists.
But since most reasonable people recognize that you can't have evidence that God doesn't exist, then what grounds do gnostic atheists hold?
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@flabdablet said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
the difference between those two things is negligible
That rather depends on exactly what one conceives of as the referent of the word "God".
For example, if one took a pantheist position and decided that "God" and "everything" are two words with identical referents, then disproving the consequences of having a God would become quite difficult :).
At which point this has devolved into an argument over semantics. That definition of god is not a useful one. I could say that I believe god is a table (to borrow an earlier analogy), and look, there's a table. You can see it and touch it. Q.E.D. God exists. It's the equivocation fallacy: it's not what we were talking about.
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
At which point this has devolved into an argument over semantics
When has any religious argument actually ever been about anything else?
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
an argument over semantics
In fact semantics provides some of the more compelling lines of reasoning that rule out the Abrahamic God as a thing capable of existing, simply because so many of its putative attributes are mutually contradictory.
Assuming its existence as axiomatic, as people of faith do, gives them no choice but to wander endlessly in a thicket of ex falso quodlibet - as ably demonstrated here by our very own Master of Incoherence @xaade.
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If you take a literal interpretation of the law as, following this saves you, and throw out the rest of the bible, then yes.
Or if you read as much of it to confirm what you already thought about it, then yes. (that one works for believers too)
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@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You don't have to prove that god doesn't exist to realize that nearly every major religion makes some claims that are clearly absurd.
Sure, but that's not really saying much. Nearly every major religion thinks that the others are all incorrect.
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You act like these people don't exist. Have you read comments on Facebook / YouTube
That was your first mistake.
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@antiquarian said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@error said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
You don't have to prove that god doesn't exist to realize that nearly every major religion makes some claims that are clearly absurd.
Sure, but that's not really saying much. Nearly every major religion thinks that the others are all incorrect.
Sure, and they're all correct about that.
Filed under:
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@error Discordianism is the only religion that doesn't claim to be true, therefore it must be true QED
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@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@error Discordianism is the only religion that doesn't claim to be true, therefore it must be true QED
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
literal interpretation of the law
If something I write looks absurd, it's that I'm just kidding, or talking in a symbolic way.
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@Jaloopa said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Discordianism is the only religion that doesn't claim to be true, therefore it must be true QED
Is Eris true?
Everything is true.
Even false things?
Even false things are true.
How can that be?
I don't know man, I didn't do it.
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@antiquarian Needs more talking heads please
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@fbmac said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
literal interpretation of the law
If something I write looks absurd, it's that I'm just kidding, or talking in a symbolic way.
<font face="webdings">Like the Bible.</font>
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@xaade said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
If you take a literal interpretation of the law as, following this saves you, and throw out the rest of the bible, then yes.
Or if you read as much of it to confirm what you already thought about it, then yes. (that one works for believers too)How do you decide which parts are literal, which figurative, and which can be safely ignored (because "context" or something)? Because you write like you personally already know which parts are which, yet opinions on that have... differed. Both over time and between different religions, or even different groups each claiming to follow the same religion as the other. To the point of warfare encompassing all the known world at the time, and the committing of many atrocities. So it seems like a pretty important thing to be able to do correctly.
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@another_sam said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
which can be safely ignored
Obviously it's all of them because I have ignored them and I am safe.
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@ben_lubar said in Why is polygamy illegal?:
Obviously it's all of them because I have ignored them and I am safe.
But Ben your immortal soul is in danger!
