The basics



  • I spend a lot of time with Sitecore these days than actually writing web applications, Sitecore unfortunately pays the bills.

    Today I heard a developer saying "Adding an extra span magically fixed the problem". My spidey sense tingled and I against my better judgement I decided to intervene.

    Not only was ASP.NET WebForms tabs being abused yet again in a new an interesting ways (800 line methods which are impossible to debug and form labels being abused). But the guy is a web developer (for the past 3 years) and doesn't understand HTML and CSS.

    He didn't understand the very basics (block vs inline), the box model or what HTML elements he should use where.

    The guy is a junior so I don't expect him to do know everything. But I expect people to know the basics.

    I felt like sending him to code-academy.

    I am still flabbergasted.



  • @lucas1 I'm not going to excuse someone learning nothing after 3 years, but to be fair that shit-- all the shit you named-- could not possibly be less intuitive.



  • @blakeyrat

    but to be fair that shit-- all the shit you named-- could not possibly be less intuitive.

    Are you taking the piss? Html is pretty straightforward, <p> for paragrapth, <a> for anchor, <li> for list item <q> for quote. etc etc,

    Even if that is true, if you didn't know CSS (which is said he didn't) most people would google CSS tutorial and 99 times out of 100 you would be presented with something like this early on in the tutorial.

    0_1462894595957_upload-0fb107e7-0428-4357-8fbe-6cbd81b53f2a

    It isn't hard to spend a bit of time learning the very basics if you are going to be working regularly with a particular piece of technology.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @lucas1 upvoted for irony.



  • @Onyx I had forgotten markdown does regular HTML as well.



  • @lucas1 And there you have CSS3, box-models, all goes to shit, everything's on fire, you're on fire, everyone dies, fuck that shit I say.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @wft said in The basics:

    And there you have CSS3

    Half of the shit that was supposed to be "in CSS3" is still not standardized:

    There is no such thing as CSS3 and we certainly don't have it yet.



  • @wft Well not really box-sizing is much simpler.



  • @asdf

    That is the W3C, not the WHATWG. That is mainly politics.

    In anycase, 3 fucking years doing web dev and they don't know the very basics of CSS is completely unacceptable.



  • @asdf CSS3 is a modular standard, so different parts are at different stages of the process. Having said that, anything even remotely standardised is being added to browsers almost daily, so in a way, it's more of a living standard like HTML5.



  • @RaceProUK said in The basics:

    a living standard like HTML5


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @RaceProUK said in The basics:

    CSS3 is a modular standard

    Which is another way of saying "there's no such thing as CSS3". I don't get why people still talk about CSS3 like it's a relevant standard that actually exists.

    @RaceProUK said in The basics:

    Having said that, anything even remotely standardised is being added to browsers almost daily

    One of the reasons I ran away from web development.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @RaceProUK said in The basics:

    CSS3 is a modular standard

    a living standard like HTML5

    [trigger warning]

    More seriously, have they at least defined a Standard Profile that ought to be widely expected? There are standards that have masses of optional pieces that are very complicated to implement, but they are then profiled so as to say that some optional pieces are actually mandatory and others are prohibited. Doing that sort of thing tames the complexity of the standard itself for a particular application area. (Yes, different areas probably use different profiles.)



  • @dkf said in The basics:

    More seriously, have they at least defined a Standard Profile that ought to be widely expected?

    ...Abraham Lincoln? :confused:



  • @dkf

    There are two standards groups at the moment as I understand it.

    The W3C which moves at a glacial pace. HTML 5 wasn't be finalised to 2020 at one point, I have no idea whether that is true anymore and honestly I don't care.

    The WHATWG is a body by the consortium of browser vendors i.e. Microsoft, Google, Opera, Apple, Mozilla. They define the "living standard".

    Microsoft had a policy of only implementing specs that had been considered finalized to be included in IE. So if a standard wasn't finalised in time for IE, then the IE team wouldn't include it until the next release of IE.

    Whereas Google and Mozilla implemented the draft spec of features using prefixes and then dropped the prefix version once it had been standardized.

    Apple have been dragging their heels as much as possible and is considered the "IE6" of the mobile browsers.

    TBH I tend to use IE11 as the worst case scenario and polyfill features as needed in version of IE older than 11. If I can get it working without a lot of faffing, I will support older versions. I do not support pre IE8 unless the client is willing to pay extra.

    I don't support version of Chrome or Firefox that aren't the latest minus one, because the browser vendors themselves don't support these configurations.



  • @lucas1 said in The basics:

    He didn't understand the very basics (block vs inline), the box model or what HTML elements he should use where.

    The guy is a junior so I don't expect him to do know everything. But I expect people to know the basics.

    You'd be surprised how many people are content with "just getting by". In my opinion, that is not the same as "knowing the basics".

    I know I was surprised when I first learned that little nugget of professional wisdom. I got into this career because I also enjoy learning about new things (tech / code / in general). Others couldn't be bothered by anything outside the realm of what they need to know right now.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @AgentDenton said in The basics:

    Others couldn'tdon't have the time to be bothered by anything outside the realm of what they need to know right now.

    FTFM. Sadly.


  • area_deu

    @lucas1 said in The basics:

    I don't support version of Chrome or Firefox that aren't the latest minus one, because the browser vendors themselves don't support these configurations.

    You should read this:



  • @aliceif I don't care about ESR, almost nobody uses it according the GA stats.



  • @AgentDenton

    Unfortunately it is a sad state of affairs. If the guy had bothered learning some of the basics he would have finished the task rather quickly and wouldn't have felt pressured.

    I emailed him some materials examples of what I had explained to him but alas he seems to have ignored it so I suspect you are probably right.



  • @AgentDenton I used to enjoy learning new things, but now I've learned enough new things that I know the new things are just the old things, but shittier.

    Now I''d rather have the good things, which are invariably older than the new things.



  • @blakeyrat

    That what you like to portray. However the reality seems to be "I will bitch and moan because I don't understand it straight-away", probably because you didn't bother learning the basics in the first place much like the developer I am lamenting about in my OP.



  • @RaceProUK said in The basics:

    @dkf said in The basics:

    More seriously, have they at least defined a Standard Profile that ought to be widely expected?

    ...Abraham Lincoln? :confused:

    0_1462975147963_upload-f4926de3-0bb2-43f3-aecc-757481dfe8b9 Alfred Hitchcock would be better.



  • @lucas1 Well I am a moron stupid dummy idiot who doesn't deserve to live, so make sure you take that into account.



  • @blakeyrat If you say so.



  • @lucas1 Why wouldn't I say so? Everybody on the forum tells me that constantly.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    Why wouldn't I say so? Everybody on the forum tells me that constantly.

    [citation needed]



  • @blakeyrat Stop playing the victim.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @AgentDenton said in The basics:

    You'd be surprised how many people are content with "just getting by".

    Not only content, some are even proud of it.

    @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    Now I''d rather have the good things, which are invariably older than the new things.

    Here, have a :belt_onion: .


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    Now I''d rather have the good things, which are invariably older than the new things.

    Occasionally someone comes up with a good new thing. Not often, but never say never.



  • @blakeyrat are you sure you aren't racepro?



  • @Magus I'm not sure if that's just a humorous pisstake or a damning indictment of my reputation here…



  • @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    @lucas1 Why wouldn't I say so? Everybody on the forum tells me that constantly.

    Looks like you are confused about the way this forum works. When you see your avatar beside a post, it's not something someone said to you, it's the other way around :p



  • @FrostCat said in The basics:

    @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    Why wouldn't I say so? Everybody on the forum tells me that constantly.

    [citation needed]

    Y


  • area_can

    @blakeyrat I haven't seen anyone say it in this thread



  • @Magus said in The basics:

    @blakeyrat are you sure you aren't racepro?

    hedgehogs and rats are both rodents, there is that



  • @fbmac said in The basics:

    hedgehogs and rats are both rodents

    Hedgehogs are of family Erinaceidae, in the order Eulipotyphla, and are therefore not rodents, which are of the order Rodentia.



  • @Magus I'm not even sure I'm me.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @blakeyrat said in The basics:

    I'm not even sure I'm me.

    :wave_tone2: I'm confident that I haven't gathered all my mental schism-instances during the Great Unification Event. It would not surprise me in the least if I found a few out there that were missed...



  • I am officially handing in my notice on this contract (I have unfortunately a funeral to go to, my car is dying and it only has 3 weeks left anyway).

    There are a tonne of WTFs other than this developers lack of understanding of anything and a 250 mile drive every weekend is getting painful.

    Got a new Sitecore role nearer to home ... lets see how this one goes.



  • @lucas1 said in The basics:

    @wft Well not really box-sizing is much simpler.

    It should be, but saidly since IE ignores border width when calculating container width, you do run into problem that sometimes the layout width is off by a few and therefore some containers unexpectedly goes to the next line. Sometimes the situation got worse that the spawn scrollbars that further limits the outer container width.

    Therefore, sometime when trying to create a page without table layout, these head-scratching problems happen even for experienced designers.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election



  • @lucas1 said in The basics:

    I am officially handing in my notice on this contract (I have unfortunately a funeral to go to, my car is dying and it only has 3 weeks left anyway).

    I hope you find a new car in time for it to take you to the funeral for your old car 3 weeks from now.



  • @devjoe

    Yes my grammar was crap :D


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @lucas1 said in The basics:

    Yes my grammar was crap

    I'm not so sure, I think it was just the parenthesis that broke normal disambiguation (which is usually their purpose). Without them (and separating the contents into a new sentence), I think it would have been perfectly fine.

    ....

    Unless your car isn't dying in three weeks?

    Wait, I think I've confused myself a bit. Here is what i think you said:

    • You're leaving your contract.
    • You have a funeral to attend.
    • You car is dying
    • This is fine, because your contract has only three weeks left (to the end of the extension, presumably)

    Is this correct?



  • @Tsaukpaetra Yes.

    I will have some time to take my car to be serviced.

    TBH how I think tends to be a stream of consciousness rather than "100% rational" and then I realise I am doing it, and then start correcting and then over-thinking.



  • @lucas1 said in The basics:

    TBH how I think tends to be a stream of consciousness rather than "100% rational" and then I realise I am doing it, and then start correcting and then over-thinking.

    I know that feeling.

    FWIW I got what you meant originally.


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