This is the guy we hired



  • I am in shock. We actually decided to extend a candidate an offer. And we actually think he's a decent human being.

    It only took us 34 interviews, but number 34 was the guy.

    What sort of person did we extend the offer to? you ask.

    Let me start by saying that out of 34 interviews, read that 34 interviews, he was the only person to wear a suit jacket.

    I'm not saying that the others didn't wear a tie or a nice shirt. We had a couple of those. But this guy came in a complete suit. I wanted to hire the guy as soon as I saw him, he was that much of a sight for sore eyes.

    Beyond that, he was well-mannered. He said "please" and "thank you". Imagine that, someone who is courteous and gives you more than a grunt when spoken to.

    No sandals, no feet on the furniture, no drugged out stare, no ripped clothes, no visible tattoos or piercings, no "new age" spiked haircut, no bad smell, no rude dismissal of defined team objectives, no apparent apathy, no exposed chest hair, no leftover "funk" in the interview room after the candidate has walked out...did I mention no bad smell?

    As you can see, I've had more negative candidate interview experiences than positive. At a ratio of 33 to 1.

    But I am super happy and we're all going out to celebrate tonight. We all agree that if this new hire even makes the 90 day mark and doesn't leave, we'll be content. We're that happy to have him on board.
     



  • "He can't code his way out of a cardboard box.... but DAMN is he good-lookin'!"

     Just kiddin'...



  • You aren't, by any chance, working for a fashion boutique?



  • Wow, a suit, he must know his stuff then.  I notice that you didn't say a single thing about his skill set or background.

    I hope you're very happy together.

    -cw



  • The guy you've hired isn't by any chance a java wizard?



  • i think the OP's main point is that given 34 people applying for a job as part of a team, this is the only one who had both qualifications and that didn't leave a bad taste in the mouth. i won't put on a suit for an interview, but i know that it helps.

    I understand his search for someone that washes though... when did personal hygeine take a back seat to... i dunno... pennyarcade?



  • @CPound said:

    But this guy came in a complete suit.

      Hmm there's one thing I don't get about the US, it's the "dress for the interview just a bit better than would be expected for normal work". In Australia it's pretty much expected that if you go for a formal interview, you wear a suit, at least for programmers. I suspect the same is true for most professions.

     



  • @GeneWitch said:

    i think the OP's main point is that given 34 people applying for a job as part of a team, this is the only one who had both qualifications and that didn't leave a bad taste in the mouth. i won't put on a suit for an interview, but i know that it helps.

    I understand his search for someone that washes though... when did personal hygeine take a back seat to... i dunno... pennyarcade?

    Knowing some of CPound's older postings, the missing reference to the candidate's qualifications makes some of us wonder whether or not those qualifications played a role at all in the hiring process.



  • @Factory said:

    @CPound said:

    But this guy came in a complete suit.

      Hmm there's one thing I don't get about the US, it's the "dress for the interview just a bit better than would be expected for normal work". In Australia it's pretty much expected that if you go for a formal interview, you wear a suit, at least for programmers. I suspect the same is true for most professions.

     

    Where I'm at wearing a suit for a programmer position is standard practice.  Maybe its because I'm in the Mid-Atlantic region and we tend to be more conservative business wise.  The US is a big country and each region has its own cultural idiosyncrasies.



  • @lpope187 said:

    @Factory said:

    @CPound said:

    But this guy came in a complete suit.

      Hmm there's one thing I don't get about the US, it's the "dress for the interview just a bit better than would be expected for normal work". In Australia it's pretty much expected that if you go for a formal interview, you wear a suit, at least for programmers. I suspect the same is true for most professions.

     

    Where I'm at wearing a suit for a programmer position is standard practice.  Maybe its because I'm in the Mid-Atlantic region and we tend to be more conservative business wise.  The US is a big country and each region has its own cultural idiosyncrasies.

    would you have invested?

    I think this goes to show a couple of things about what CPound is sayin.

    Hmmmmm...



  • @GeneWitch said:

    would you have invested?

    Is that Mr. Gumby I see in the top left corner? 



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    Wow, a suit, he must know his stuff then.  I notice that you didn't say a single thing about his skill set or background.

    His resume looked adequate enough. And you may laugh about it, but he does have a solid Java background. Java and PHP. And based on how he presented himself in the interview, he came across as very intelligent and willing (and able) to pick up new technologies. Like .NET 3.0. Overall, he looks like a solid hire.

    @CodeWhisperer said:

    I hope you're very happy together.

    I hope so too. Like I said before, if he makes it to the 90-day mark, it will all have been worth it. 



  • But did you ask him who his favorite person in history was?

    =)



  • @GeneWitch said:

    i won't put on a suit for an interview, but i know that it helps.

    I would highly recommend that everyone wear a suit to an interview.

    It's one thing if it's your second interview with a company, and you decide to dress a little more casually. But, if it's your first dealings with a company, always suit up.

    In my experience, not suiting up means points against you at the outset. Why would you want to start an interview process already in the negative? That means you better be Ultra-Candidate from Programmer World in order to overcome that initial deficiency.

    Comments like "I won't put on a suit for an interview" just make me cringe. Why not? Do you not own a suit? As a highly paid programmer, you should have the funds to buy one. And it's only for the morning or afternoon. It's not like you have to wear it all day! I don't see what the big deal is about dressing nicely and not smelling...at least for a couple hours. If you want to scratch your butt and wade in filth after the fact, go right on ahead. You can wallow in slop at home. Just don't bring that stuff to the interview room.



  • @CPound said:

     As a highly paid programmer, you should have the funds to buy one.

    I'm a psych student about to take GREs... not a 'highly paid programmer'

     

    ...yet.



  • @CPound said:

    In my experience, not suiting up means points against you at the outset. Why would you want to start an interview process already in the negative? That means you better be Ultra-Candidate from Programmer World in order to overcome that initial deficiency.

    Comments like "I won't put on a suit for an interview" just make me cringe. Why not? Do you not own a suit? As a highly paid programmer, you should have the funds to buy one. And it's only for the morning or afternoon. It's not like you have to wear it all day! I don't see what the big deal is about dressing nicely and not smelling...at least for a couple hours. If you want to scratch your butt and wade in filth after the fact, go right on ahead. You can wallow in slop at home. Just don't bring that stuff to the interview room.

    When I go to an interview, I'm not just there to be interviewed, I'm also there to judge the company as a prospective employer. Part of this is a large number of minor tests about their attitude. One of those is whether they judge things based on appearances, or whether they can manage to overcome their instincts and judge based on what is best for them. People who can see past the absence of a suit will make better employers for an engineer, because it means they're used to actually thinking rather than just reacting.

    If you mark somebody down because of what they're wearing, for a non-customer-facing position, then in my book you are starting out in the negative.

    Another way you can lose points is by failing to ask why I'm not wearing a suit (because that means you're more concerned about avoiding giving offence than you are about finding the best result).



  • @asuffield said:

    If you mark somebody down because of what they're wearing, for a non-customer-facing position, then in my book you are starting out in the negative.

    I am astounded at the response I've received regarding the whole "wear a suit" issue.

    Didn't any of you go to college? And didn't anyone tell you during your senior year that you would have interviews and it would be best that you wore a suit? Why is this such a foreign concept to all of you?!? It was standard practice for me.

    I find it hard to believe that times have changed so much that candidates are supposed to waltz in the door wearing their pajamas and unkempt hair.

    And in reference to your "non-customer-facing position" comment...first of all, you are always in a customer facing position. Whether you are serving your external customers (clients) or your internal customers (co-workers, other departments, etc.) you are always facing a customer of some sort. Secondly, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the position won't require you to dress up in some way? You don't. There's no possible way. Even if you know gobs of information about the position, there's no way you can know all the ins and outs of the corporate culture. So assuming that "casual is cool" isn't smart at all.

    The only way I would come dressed casually to an interview is if the employer specifically told me to do so. Otherwise, forget it. Even if the recruiter says something like, "Oh they're casual there...just wear whatever." I'm still wearing a suit. Just in case.

    I would rather look like a gentleman and be out of place, than look like a street vagrant and be an eye sore to the interviewer.
     



  • @CPound said:

    @asuffield said:

    If you mark somebody down because of what they're wearing, for a non-customer-facing position, then in my book you are starting out in the negative.

    I am astounded at the response I've received regarding the whole "wear a suit" issue.

    Didn't any of you go to college? And didn't anyone tell you during your senior year that you would have interviews and it would be best that you wore a suit? Why is this such a foreign concept to all of you?!? It was standard practice for me.

    Perhaps you shouldn't assume it is the same in all cultures. 



  • @CPound said:

    no visible tattoos or piercings, no "new age" spiked haircut,

     

    Hey CPound, i think you're cutting out quite a few good programmers there.  I think you might be the one with the issue.  Granted i wear suits to a formal interview but not take out my piercings, in an interview you're as much interviewing the company as they are you.  If it was an issue at that company i wouldn't want to work there anyway and if they wanted me to wear a suit every day even on days when i wasn't meeting with clients i'd just tell them thanks for their time and not to bother calling me, there are just as many companies that don't have those sort of policies.  Here in AU things are fairly informal dress wise for programmers, but you would wear a suit to the interview.  I'd be very careful about hiring someone just based on them wearing a suit though, anyone can wear a suit but not everyone can program.

     

    I do know what you mean about bad interviewees though i was doing interviews for a graduate position at my company a couple of weeks ago.  I know exactly what you mean about the grunting response, some of the guys seemed like they didn't even want jobs(although they all wore suits).  We also had the interviewees sit a small exam after the interview, some were so bad they didn't make it that far, but the thing that shocked me most out of the 16 people we had sit the exam 1 yes that's right 1 got the following question correct(not the exact text):

    What port does a webserver run on by default?
     

    we hired the one guy that got it right



  • Aren't you like 24 or something?

    In '91 -- when I was about that age -- I had an interview with a gov't agency who was looking for a developer.  It was a panel interview with 5 different people tossing questions at me and a computer in the corner where I had to do what ended up being some fairly basic DOS stuff while they watched.

    I came to the interview in a nice pair of slacks, long sleeve shirt but no tie.  This was a fairly arid climate and with summer temps up in the 90 degree range, I decided to eschew a jacket and tie.  Toward the end of the interview someone gestured toward my neck, clearly indicating the lack of a tie.  They asked, "if you were hired, is this how you would come to work?"  I responded, with the flippancy for which I was known when I was younger, "That depends, are you hiring me for my programming skill or my fashion sense?".   I immediately regretted the response, but that was that.  I was thanked for my time and left.

    I got the job.

    I've been offered most every job I've interviewed for since, with mom-and-pop shops and the largest companies in the world.   In each, I wear comfortable but nice clothes.  Perhaps the jobs I didn't get were because I failed to wear a suit...but if that's the case, it hasn't held my career back one bit.

    Correspondingly, I have come to not care a lot about what people wear.  If they wear a suit, good for them; I hope it fits well and they don't look like they are super uncomfortable.  When I lived in the desert, people even arrived in shorts and sandals...and got jobs.  Some people who showed up in suits didn't...some did.   That's not what they are being judged on.  But you already know what my interviews are like, a suit won't help you through them.

    You're perfectly within your right to judge your candidates on any criteria you see fit.  Folks with red hair get jobs automatically, people with black hair don't.  Fine.  But it doesn't really seem like a recipe for long term success if you're only aiming 90 days out.

    -cw



  • Every once in a while I wear a suit to work.  Of course I hide it under my coat, and when I get in the office I take of the jacket and tie.  But at 6:30 I put it back on and go to a Boston Symphony concert.  Yes, I wear a suit to symphony concerts.  Look for me up in the balcony.

    I saw my friend J. wearing a tuxedo at the last concert.  Usually he wears an ordinary suit, but he said the Berlioz justified the tux.  You're probably thinking he can't be much of a programmer.  Well it just so happens that he was the chief architect of one of the more successful commercial database packages.

    The profession I trained for would have required me to wear a suit.  But I wasn't good enough to pass the audition so I got a computer job instead.

     



  • @newfweiler said:

    Every once in a while I wear a suit to work.  Of course I hide it under my coat, and when I get in the office I take of the jacket and tie.  But at 6:30 I put it back on and go to a Boston Symphony concert.  Yes, I wear a suit to symphony concerts.  Look for me up in the balcony.

    I saw my friend J. wearing a tuxedo at the last concert.  Usually he wears an ordinary suit, but he said the Berlioz justified the tux.  You're probably thinking he can't be much of a programmer.  Well it just so happens that he was the chief architect of one of the more successful commercial database packages.

    The profession I trained for would have required me to wear a suit.  But I wasn't good enough to pass the audition so I got a computer job instead.

    It'd take a lot more than a heap o' Berlioz to get me in a tux.  Maybe Chopin, but only if the Barcarolle was on the bill.



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    Aren't you like 24 or something?

    No. I'm older than you think. But I'm also younger than others might think.

    @CodeWhisperer said:
    Toward the end of the interview someone gestured toward my neck, clearly indicating the lack of a tie. They asked, "if you were hired, is this how you would come to work?"
     
    That's pretty much me in an interview. I'm that guy asking that question. I want to know what on earth is going through the candidate's mind by not wearing a suit. I mean, how dare you come to my company and waste my time and not even come dressed properly. It really is an insult if you think about it.
     
    You mention interviewing back in 1991 and not wearing a suit. Yeah, right. Unless you were interviewing at a super-liberal California company, you wouldn't even have gotten through the door. That was my experience back then. No suit, no interview. That was the norm.
     
    This is a new phenomenon. Things started to change around...hmm...2002? 2003? And I didn't really see it from a managerial aspect until 2004/2005. Now it is full-blown apparently. Looking like trash is the norm nowadays. I guess I have to get used to it in some respects, but that doesn't mean I have to hire these dirtbags guys.
     
    Oh, and somebody made a comment about continuing to wear piercings to an interview. Yeah, that big nose bullring is so cool. Makes you look pretty menacing. I can see how that really helps your interview out.



  • @CPound said:

    I'm older than you think. But I'm also younger than others might think.

    My mistake.

    @CPound said:

    You mention interviewing back in 1991 and not wearing a suit. Yeah, right.

    Your disbelief not withstanding, that's what happened.  It also happened in 1993, 1996, etc.  I've not once worn a suit to an interview, and that includes interviews for senior architect & director level positions at publicly traded companies.  Granted, they tend to be in 'the west' (of the US & Canada), for what that matters. If someone ever said "you really should wear a suit, so-and-so is a bit of a stickler", I might wear one (after I bought one, I only have a more formal one appropriate for weddings, etc), but it really doesn't seem appropriate here.

    -cw



  • @CPound said:

    And in reference to your "non-customer-facing position" comment...first of all, you are always in a customer facing position.

    See, that's the sort of attitude I'm checking for. You get marked down for it in my book, and you damn well deserve it. You're just spouting that "everybody is your customer" MBA tripe without actually thinking about what it means. The reality is that there are two kinds of people you might be interacting with: customers (who have a choice in whether to use your service) and staff (who don't). There is no excuse for fussing over how an employee dresses unless they interact directly with actual customers (who might care about such things and might affect the business as a result).

     

    Secondly, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the position won't require you to dress up in some way? You don't. 

    I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the position requires me to dress up in some way, I don't want your stupid job.

    I want to know what on earth is going through the candidate's mind by not wearing a suit. I mean, how dare you come to my company and waste my time and not even come dressed properly. It really is an insult if you think about it.

    Another attitude problem that I'm careful to test for. If that's how you look at it, there's no way in hell I want to work for or with you. It's that kind of self-centred attitude that gets you eight copies of a memo about TPS report cover sheets.

    Frankly, I'm surprised that you hired anybody at all.



  • After carefull consideration, I admit I'm suprised that it took 34 candidates to find one wearing a suit. No matter whether or not you think it's necessary, at least one out of three should play safe by dressing up as much as possible. The job add didn't offer an opening for a "1337 h@><0r dud3" by any chance?



  • @ammoQ said:

    After carefull consideration, I admit I'm suprised that it took 34 candidates to find one wearing a suit. No matter whether or not you think it's necessary, at least one out of three should play safe by dressing up as much as possible. The job add didn't offer an opening for a "1337 h@><0r dud3" by any chance?

    If ((AmmoQ == bHero)

    {

           cheer()

    }

    Else

    QQ()

     

     



  • Regarding the tattooed and the pierced - all good programmers are non-conformists, in their own little way. If you can't question, you can't program. Seriously, where did you dig up 33 grunters who put their feet on the desk and stunk out the room? Talk about slim pickings...



  • @CPound said:

    I'm that guy asking that question. I want to know what on earth is going through the candidate's mind by not wearing a suit. I mean, how dare you come to my company and waste my time and not even come dressed properly. It really is an insult if you think about it.
     
    Looking like trash is the norm nowadays. I guess I have to get used to it in some respects, but that doesn't mean I have to hire these dirtbags guys.
     
    Oh, and somebody made a comment about continuing to wear piercings to an interview. Yeah, that big nose bullring is so cool. Makes you look pretty menacing. I can see how that really helps your interview out.

    Mr. Cpound,

    The world is not as black-and-white as you appear to perceive it. Between Neurotic Tightass Suit and Apathetic Dirtbag Hippie is a whole spectrum of people and dressing-levels. If someone will not wear a suit, that does not mean he'll "look like trash" or "show up in pyjamas with unkempt hair" or wear a friggin' bullring.

    And seriously, to reverse footwear for a minute, how dare you waste my time inviting me for an interview and then blowing me off because you have a problem with my attire, you arrogant, arrogant man? You have some clout expecting me to work at your company.

    It appears that you, to quote yourself, really are that guy. Don't be that guy.

    I believe we've already extensively covered this subject in another thread, and the points were the same. I would copypaste my response from there, but I can't find the thread and the Search function on this site doesn't actually do anything, except reload the page.



  • I haven't had a new job in a looooong time, but if I was searching now I'd wear a suit to an interview. I must be old-school!

    My thinking is this.... yeah, I'm a talented developer, confident enough in my abilities and work ethic to know that the company I'm interviewing with would consider themselves lucky to have me in even in a ragged T-shirt and sweat pants.... still, if it turns out to be a good fit from my perspective, I sure wouldn't want my chances jeopardized by lacking something that's so easy to accommodate. I guess I'm a believer in first impressions counting.



  • @wgh said:

    I haven't had a new job in a looooong time, but if I was searching now I'd wear a suit to an interview. I must be old-school!

    My thinking is this.... yeah, I'm a talented developer, confident enough in my abilities and work ethic to know that the company I'm interviewing with would consider themselves lucky to have me in even in a ragged T-shirt and sweat pants.... still, if it turns out to be a good fit from my perspective, I sure wouldn't want my chances jeopardized by lacking something that's so easy to accommodate. I guess I'm a believer in first impressions counting.

    Thank you thank you thank you thank you! 

    Finally, someone who understands what I'm getting at! 



  • @dhromed said:

    It appears that you, to quote yourself, really are that guy. Don't be that guy.

    I wasn't always that guy. I used to be like a great many of you...rebellious...mad at the conformist world...the usual tripe.

    But it wasn't until I gained semi-managerial status that I came to understand why these rebellious attitudes are unprofitable.

    If everybody does their own thing, the entire system collapses. Rules are thrown out the window and a company's quality and productivity suffers greatly.

    And I can't stress enough that "doing your own thing" has been done before in every preceding generation. It just takes on a new form of rebellious slacking.

    You're not original, Mr. bullring-in-the-nose. You're just disgusting and gross to look at.



  • For the record,

    I would pull a comb through my hair before an interview. Just sayin'.
     



  • @CPound said:

    I wasn't always that guy. I used to be like a great many of you...rebellious...mad at the conformist world...the usual tripe.

    But it wasn't until I gained semi-managerial status that I came to understand why these rebellious attitudes are unprofitable.

    By reading that, I get the impression that you suddenly became a babbitt the day you were promoted to semi-management. 


    If everybody does their own thing, the entire system collapses. Rules are thrown out the window and a company's quality and productivity suffers greatly.

    It depends on the job. A coder's job is to write code, according to the specification and the conventions and guidelines for style and stuff. On the other hand, a graphics designer has to be freaky to be innovative and outstanding. A software architect is somewhere between those two poles... you don't want him to be a madman, but he must be able to find and go his own way.
     



  • @CPound said:

    I used to be like a great many of you...rebellious...mad at the conformist world...the usual tripe.

    Wow, who would have thought that my khakis and colorful shirts would mark me as rebellious...things have changed since I sported blue hair in highschool, the bar dropped a lot.

    I don't know what to tell you, what you are describing would seem to be at odds with almost every company I've ever worked at -- including one run by ex military guys.  (What would you have done the day the pre-op transexual walked through the door?  But, we needed an astronomer, and she was a good one).  At MS, there's a breadth of characters that would apparently make your head explode (a guy walking around in a mu-mu last week, that was entertaining)...and the ones who arrive for interviews in suits tend to be intern candidates and new grads.  Everyone else knows better.  

    Hell, I just went through interviewer training and one of the trainers anecdotes was about how he was once (at a previous job) buffaloed by a candidate because of his spiffy suit, good watch and shiny shoes....only to have him disappear 4 days later with $10,000 of the company's money...the moral being, prosaicly enough, "don't judge a book by it's cover", and that's the official company line with several thousand open positions.

    You also seem to be ignoring a repeated warning about candidates interviewing the company as much as you are interviewing them.  You might live somewhere small,  where there are only a handful of jobs for eager new grads to jump at, but that sort of attitude is going to make your life even more difficult if you go somewhere bigger.  I have had to churn through a couple dozen candidates in the past to find one I liked...but it was generally about technical knowledge.  I kept getting guys who self-assessed as .NET experts and then couldn't tell me what .Dispose() was for.   After all that, I did not want to lose him because he was unhappy with my interviewing style or the company culture.  We were courting him as much as he was looking for a job, because there were a hundred other jobs within 10 miles he was very well qualified for.

    I actually can't remember much at all about what he wore...or any of them for that matter...I think one guy wore a suit, one guy wore shorts.  I do remember an MIT master's degree graduate with a laughable thesis project,  and the guy who sat in the corner and didn't even make an attempt at the design question; but  I do certainly remember that the guy I finally hired didn't get all the design questions right, but he did learn from his mistakes and showed a real excitement in talking about it. 

    I'll take that over a suit any day of the week...heck, in this job market, I'll take that over clothes any day of the week :)

    @CPound said:

    But it wasn't until I gained semi-managerial status that I came to understand why these rebellious attitudes are unprofitable.

    If everybody does their own thing, the entire system collapses. Rules are thrown out the window and a company's quality and productivity suffers greatly.

    That's why there are managers and QA and other checks-and-balances.  Let the creative guys be creative, make sure there are sticks-in-the-mud to keep them in line and headed for success.  Maybe you're not creative, but you should let your guys be.

    Google lets people work on their own projects 20% of the time...and they don't seem to be suffering too badly.  You can make jokes about the quality of MS products and how long they take to push out, but I don't think you can laugh at the billions that flow in to the company coffers every quarter...and I'd argue that a lot of their problems are symptom of "none of us are as dumb as all of us" committee thinking.  I don't think either of the Steves that started apple would have fit your bill (except maybe Jobs when he was trying to game you by wearing a suit).   I mean, exactly who are you modelling yourself on?   Have you read much about the history of your field?

    @CPound said:

    And I can't stress enough that "doing your own thing" has been done before in every preceding generation.

    Yeah, and they've managed to do some pretty incredible things along the way.  It isn't all beatniks and hippies, after all.  (And even they managed to write some good books, make some good music, and grow up to wear suits just like their dad)   The entire history of personal computers and software is rife with iconoclasts and non-conformists.  You sound a bit like a middle manager at IBM in 1978 harrumphing and saying "These kids with their toy computers and their long hair and their so-called 'rock-and-roll'..."

    And to think you once posited that I was a 'fuddy-duddy'.  Sheesh.

    -cw



  • @CodeWhisperer said:

    We were courting him as much as he was looking for a job, because there were a hundred other jobs within 10 miles he was very well qualified for.

    Maybe that's why things are the way they are currently. Because these kids think "Oh, I can have my pick of jobs...I'll just wear whatever and not even shower." But do any of you remember the recession after 9/11 when tons of developers (including myself) were laid off and were literally starving? It's such an insult dealing with these youngsters, because I remember suffering through those lean days, begging for a job....any job. God help these guys if another recession hits and all of a sudden they're wondering why they aren't employable.

    @CodeWhisperer said:

    Google lets people work on their own projects 20% of the time...and they don't seem to be suffering too badly. You can make jokes about the quality of MS products and how long they take to push out, but I don't think you can laugh at the billions that flow in to the company coffers every quarter...and I'd argue that a lot of their problems are symptom of "none of us are as dumb as all of us" committee thinking. I don't think either of the Steves that started apple would have fit your bill (except maybe Jobs when he was trying to game you by wearing a suit). I mean, exactly who are you modelling yourself on? Have you read much about the history of your field?

    I don't know about you, but I don't work at a Google or a Microsoft. It would be nice to have the luxury of liberal-hippy beanbag chairs, fung shway, and whatnot. But the reality is, I work at a normal company which needs to make revenue. Otherwise, the employees don't get paid. I think a lot of you have your heads in the clouds...if your company wasn't profitable you yourself wouldn't have a job.



  • Aren't we done beating this dead horse yet? 

     



  • @CPound said:

    Maybe that's why things are the way they are currently. ... But do any of you remember the recession after 9/11 when tons of developers (including myself) were laid off and were literally starving? It's such an insult dealing with these youngsters, because I remember suffering through those lean days, begging for a job....any job. God help these guys if another recession hits and all of a sudden they're wondering why they aren't employable.

    I was doing a lot of hiring in that time period...If that happens, it's not because they lack a suit. 

    In cases where there is more supply than demand, the cream rise to the top.  The kids with 2 years of VB experience who don't know a linked list from link sausage find that their services aren't as easy to offer, and the people with a broad experience and deep technical knowledge get most of the good jobs.  In those cases, you really _don't_ want people making hiring decisions based on menswear, because if you can only afford 2 guys instead of 20, you want the two who can do the work of twenty, not the ones who are going to make a good fashion plate.

    @CPound said:

    I don't know about you, but I don't work at a Google or a Microsoft. It would be nice to have the luxury of liberal-hippy beanbag chairs, fung shway, and whatnot.

    I can assure you that people aren't issued beanbag chairs at the door, nor is there a roving feng shui expert who makes the rounds.  There are plenty of republicans in residence as well, I should add.  Some of them even wear sandals. 

    @CPound said:

    I work at a normal company which needs to make revenue. Otherwise, the employees don't get paid. I think a lot of you have your heads in the clouds...if your company wasn't profitable you yourself wouldn't have a job.

    Not sure what you're saying here.  I've stated before that this has been my experience over almost 20 years and at a variety of companies, from 5-person to 50,000-person in size, through recessions and bubbles.   Clearly a company needs to be profitable (or at least sustainable, there are plenty of start-ups that remain unprofitable for a time, for instance), that's the goal of a company.  The fact that the devs wair suits or sandals doesn't seem to have a direct impact on the bottom line as far as I have seen. 

    Actually, when I think of the costliest mistakes I've seen, it's usually millions of dollars being wasted by the guys wearing the suits up in the executive suite, not the tattooed, bull-ringed and sandal-wearing devs down in the cubes.  The company I left last just shut down a new business line after blowing 6 million on an aquisition and hundreds of thousands tying the crappy-ass system into their own... only to discover it was unprofitable.  The entire time, I was there in my rebellious khakis waving and saying "hey, maybe we need to invest in the crumbling infrastructure that supports our core business rather than spending millions on this boondoggle".  Suits won out, of course, and now the company is laying off 10% of it's workforce, pushing the COO out, etc.  Bravo.

    -cw



  • @CPound said:

     
    Oh, and somebody made a comment about continuing to wear piercings to an interview. Yeah, that big nose bullring is so cool. Makes you look pretty menacing. I can see how that really helps your interview out.

     

    Well if it saves me from having to work for a dick like you then i guess it does.

    Luckily, in my experience, most employers don't share your point of view. 



  • @CPound said:

    Oh, and somebody made a comment about continuing to wear piercings to an interview. Yeah, that big nose bullring is so cool. Makes you look pretty menacing. I can see how that really helps your interview out.

    Also Cpound, i don't have a bullring, but i do have four piercings in my face, but then again most of the programmers i know have at least one piercing and we all have good, well paid jobs at good companies.  I guess we stress less about pissy things like that here in the AU.  But i've interviewed a lot more people than i've been interviewed myself and i can tell you someones hair or piercings have nothing to do with my selection of a potential candidate.

     

    Also piercings only make people look "menacing"  to bigots like you



  • @CPound said:

    Maybe that's why things are the way they are currently. Because these kids think "Oh, I can have my pick of jobs...I'll just wear whatever and not even shower." But do any of you remember the recession after 9/11 when tons of developers (including myself) were laid off and were literally starving? It's such an insult dealing with these youngsters, because I remember suffering through those lean days, begging for a job....any job. God help these guys if another recession hits and all of a sudden they're wondering why they aren't employable.

     Perhaps if you were a better programmer you wouldn't have been laid off.  Seriously, you seem to think that you are better than everyone here because you wear a suit and tie to an interview.  Perhaps if you could actually use your brain a little bit you could judge someone based a off a little bit more than what they wear.

     

    Also a couple things to keep in mind:

    1.  If someone does not wear a suit to an interview this does not mean than wear pajamas and slippers or sandals or anything else that you are saying.  It also doesn't mean they smell bad.  In fact someone can wear a suit and still smell bad (especially if it's a hot day).  If you take a shower and put on deoderant you won't smell bad.

    2.  Not every piercing is in the nose and has a 3" hoop in it.  There are such things as ear piercings (which I'm pretty sure are even considered fashionable by many people).
     



  • @element[0] said:

    Also Cpound, i don't have a bullring, but i do have four piercings in my face, but then again most of the programmers i know have at least one piercing

    You sound like one scary looking "dude". So do your friends. 

    @element[0] said:

    Also piercings only make people look "menacing"  to bigots like you

    That's why I won't hire any of them. I don't want to fear for my life in the parking lot just because I gave one of my employees a task they didn't like.

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? The piercings speak for themselves. They say, "I tolerate pain. Do you?"



  • Wow...just...wow.   

    @CPound said:

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? 


    So...you don't hire people who are into martial arts?  Or collect guns?  Those are people with the skills & equipment to physically assault you.  

    When you think about it, everyone has the potential to physically assault you. 

    -cw



  • @CPound said:

    @element[0] said:

    Also piercings only make people look "menacing"  to bigots like you

    That's why I won't hire any of them. I don't want to fear for my life in the parking lot just because I gave one of my employees a task they didn't like.

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? The piercings speak for themselves. They say, "I tolerate pain. Do you?"

     Wow you really are one totally arrogant guy aren't you?  You clearly think you are better than people who look different to you.  Are you seriously saying that someone who wears a suit does not have the potential to physically assault you?  And also that anyone who has piercings will?  You live in a completely sad, make believe world of black and whites don't you?  I think you "fearing for your life" merely because of someones appearance and not their actions shows a severe personality flaw on your part and also a high degree of irrationality.

    I also think that most readers of this post would agree that you have completely embarrassed yourself in front of the entire WTF community and revealed yourself to be a thoroughly biggotted and unpleasant person.

     Also this attitude you have that piercing somehow represent an "I tolerate pain" attitude is completely wrong, i bet some of your co - workers have ear piercings, do you think they are crazy as well?.  People get piercings and tattoos all the time because they like them, not to send some message to you.

    BTW CPound with an attitude like that you wouldn't make it through the first round of interviews at my company. 



  • @CPound said:

    @element[0] said:

    Also Cpound, i don't have a bullring, but i do have four piercings in my face, but then again most of the programmers i know have at least one piercing

    You sound like one scary looking "dude". So do your friends. 

     This statement also reveals something about you.  You are scared of people with piercings for no other reason than your own prejudiced perceptions.  This makes you seem pretty pathetic.  I feel sorry for you.  You obviously live in some sad little fantasy world where you are somehow better than other people because you wear a suit, get over your self and stop embarasing your self by posting such ridiculous comments.

     
    You sound like one conservative looking "dickhead".  So do your friends.
     



  • @CPound said:

    @element[0] said:

    Also Cpound, i don't have a bullring, but i do have four piercings in my face, but then again most of the programmers i know have at least one piercing

    You sound like one scary looking "dude". So do your friends. 

    Gee personal attacks on someone, how adult of you.

    @CPound said:

     

    @element[0] said:

    Also piercings only make people look "menacing"  to bigots like you

    That's why I won't hire any of them. I don't want to fear for my life in the parking lot just because I gave one of my employees a task they didn't like.

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? The piercings speak for themselves. They say, "I tolerate pain. Do you?"

    My 12 your old niece must be a total craze then, she even got two.

    But i seem to remember she just thought they looked pretty, but i'm sure the whole "i tolerate pain. Do you?" must have weighted heavy for her too. 



  • @CPound said:

    @element[0] said:

    Also piercings only make people look "menacing"  to bigots like you

    That's why I won't hire any of them. I don't want to fear for my life in the parking lot just because I gave one of my employees a task they didn't like.

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? The piercings speak for themselves. They say, "I tolerate pain. Do you?"

    DUUUDE.

    Are you saying these things on purpose? Because you're on the internetz and ethical boundaries blur a little? Will you just stop being that guy? Please? For the sake of your mental health. You're an articulate, at least reasonably intelligent person. Irrational fears like that will drag you down.

    hug



  • @CPound said:

    Why hire someone who has the potential to physically assault you? The piercings speak for themselves. They say, "I tolerate pain. Do you?"

    Whoa...

    You're completely out of your mind, because someone has piercings or tatoos doesn't mean he's going to physically assault you... (some of the sweetest persons I know do happen to have quite many piercings), nor do they say "I tolerate pain, do you?" out of your little bible-belt-mentality fantasy world. I have tatoos (invisible under pants + shirts, but I still have them) and i sure as hell didn't get them to tell other people "I tolerate pain", I got them for aesthetics and personal reasons, and most of the people who got piercings or tatoos are the same. Or they got them when they were drunk and it sounded cool, but that's an other issue.

    Seriously, you're completely out of what. Enjoy your semi-managerial suit&tie though.



  • @masklinn said:

    I have tatoos and i sure as hell didn't get them to tell other people "I tolerate pain"

    What about that tattoo that says "I tolerate pain"?



  • 				<blockquote><div><img src="http://forums.thedailywtf.com/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif"> <strong>CPound:</strong></div><div><blockquote><div><img src="http://forums.thedailywtf.com/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif"> <strong>element[0]:</strong></div><div>Also
    

    Cpound, i don't have a bullring, but i do have four piercings in my
    face, but then again most of the programmers i know have at least one
    piercing

    You sound like one scary looking "dude". So do your friends. 

    Gee personal attacks on someone, how adult of you.

     

    When it comes down to "personal attacks" and "adult", try reading some of the posts in response to CPound (who I dont particularly agree with, btw), like:

    Well if it saves me from having to work for a dick like you then i guess it does.

    or 

    Perhaps if you could actually use your brain a little bit

    Now that IS adult, is it?

    Seconldy, i DO think (and hope) that CPound was being sarcastic. He seems intelligent enough to me to be one to try some sarcasm now and then. This time it seems not to have worked out...

    Anyway, I, myself, usually wear a suit for an interview, however, i wouldn't ever send someone away because he isn't wearing one. I also dont think that people should "have to wear suits now so that when harder times come, they'll still be hireable", because if those times come, and they desperately don't want to wear a suit to their interviews, and they don't get any more jobs, and subsequently starve, they learned it the hard way. I also trust, however, that they aren't going to starve and will still get a job, even without a suit...
     


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