Recruiting Giants


  • area_can

    Some DirectX creator gives his advice for hiring skilled developers. To be honest, what with working 70 hours a week and being a slave to your company's culture becoming admirable in some circles, this doesn't surprise me.

    This presentation was for a group of CEOs and other high-level execs.


  • area_can

    Coding is NOT work: people who think this...are not software engineers

    While I can't say I'm a fan of the term software /engineer/, fuck this guy for telling people that I'm a poor worker because I give a shit about getting paid, and for seeing my job as a job.


  • sockdevs

    @bb36e said in Recruiting Giants:

    working 70 hours a week

    ....

    okay.

    this is important.

    repeat after me.

    FUCK!

    THAT!

    SHIT!



  • RULE 2: Coding is NOT WORK
    Yes it is, I get paid to do it. Fuck off.

    Real engineers want a team and a mission that requires long hours and sacrifice.
    Because real engineers don't want to see their spouses, children, family or friends, amirite?

    Real engineers want to live in “the zone” https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Loggins_-_Danger_Zone_single_cover.png

    This guy's a right prick isn't he? (Not Kenny Loggins, he's a ledge)



  • "Have their significant other let them work long hours" is one of the more creative management strategies.

    Everybody wants only the best but not everybody is going to get them. Most places will by definition only get mediocre people.



  • Oh THIS is what Slowbeef was going on about on his Twitter yesterday.



  • TIL I'm not a real software engineer. I may enjoy programming, but when I do it for the company, it's work. It may be enjoyable work at the best of times, but if I were free to code what I want with the people I want to do it with, I wouldn't choose my work project with my cow-orkers. And fuck long hours. Even the best programmers are going to be counterproductive if they're working 80 hour weeks. Speaking for myself, if I don't sleep properly, I'm a zombie the next day.


  • mod

    I mean, I see what he was trying to say about development not being "work": when I'm able to sit and focus on a development task, I get in The Zone and I end up coming away with a sense of satisfaction and productivity that makes it a rather nice day. It's the rest of my job that feels like "work", which I come away from feeling exhausted and emotionally drained.

    That said, 70 hours a week is fucking nonsense. I have about 36 hours a week in my body before it gives out, and I make up the other four hours on my timesheet with light reading (QA blogs, et cetera) and status meetings I don't really pay attention to.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Recruiting Giants:

    That said, 70 hours a week is fucking nonsense

    It's also illegal in the EU thanks to the Working Hours Directive, which puts the limit at 48 hours.

    Unless you sign a waiver to that right, which unfortunately a lot of UK contracts effectively (and legally) force you to do, at least in IT.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Recruiting Giants:

    That said, 70 hours a week is fucking nonsense.

    IIRC they did a science on working more than 40 hours a week on software projects.

    You get double productivity the first 80 hour week, regular productivity the second 80 hour week, and half regular productivity the third, and it only gets worse from there.



  • This whole PDF seems like it is a lesson on how to exploit and drain people as inhumanely as possible.



  • @Yamikuronue said in Recruiting Giants:

    when I'm able to sit and focus on a development task, I get in The Zone and I end up coming away with a sense of satisfaction and productivity that makes it a rather nice day.

    Except nobody can do that because we're all in big open office layouts without even noise cancelling ceiling tiles. (At some point, I guess in the late-90s, suddenly all offices decided noise cancelling ceiling tiles were passe. So now you just hear the HVAC churning along all day.)

    The only place I can get "in the zone" is working from home. And even then it's rare.

    @Yamikuronue said in Recruiting Giants:

    That said, 70 hours a week is fucking nonsense.

    As I've said many times, anybody who claims they can do more than 8 hours of productive coding a day is a liar. You can work for more than 8 hours a day, but what you write will be complete ass.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    So... The businesslizard part of my brain found this highly logical and compelling and to match experience to date.

    It added that employees with unstable personal lives are easier to retain.

    I hate my inner business lizard.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat Every week I've done more than 40, and there have been a lot, the cause hasn't been "write more code". It's the other bullshit that amateur hour companies like WtfCorp has developers do: System administration, build engineering, endless form filling, etc.



  • @blakeyrat Yeah, unions would be awful. This presentation is a mixed bag. I get that those are all things that an employer would want, ideally. Hopefully (hah!) the viewers are smart enough to know that they're going to have to compromise on a lot of stuff.



  • It's worse than that; the whole idea is predicated on that same tired old "rock star developer" crap, and then advocates driving those 'rock stars' into an early grave. Brillant!

    As for collective bargaining, the solution is to think less like a labor union and more like a guild - and yes, I know a lot of unions are called 'guilds', but that's just PR bullshit. A real guild is less about collective bargaining and more about providing training and apprenticeship, and ensuring a basic level of quality - making it so that the MGT wants to work with you as a group because you'll be more likely to get the job done. Unfortunately, given that informatics is still in the fucking stone age, and will be for at least another century, that's a tall order to fill.

    Mind you, the apprenticeship part is the real key - with a skilled craft, you need an apprenticeship, after and in addition to the formal education, and the fact that corpse-rat IT heads aren't demanding that their entry-level devs complete one is just further proof that most of them have their heads up their asses.


  • mod

    @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    we're all in big open office layouts without even noise cancelling ceiling tiles.

    Ew. I agree, that's awful.



  • @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    this is important.

    No it isn't, because you're female. Get back to spending your man's money.

    Though can't tell if your a "Wives" or a "GF's", depends one which shitty grammar we're going with in that particular slide.

    @thegoryone said in Recruiting Giants:

    Because real engineers don't want to see their spouses

    Engineers actively avoid those hag shoppers, because women are only good for ruining the bottom line of a corporate.

    @thegoryone said in Recruiting Giants:

    children

    You will only have children to feed back into The Machine. You will breed a sign of your worth to the company. You will teach your children not to expect "slave wages" and instead work for the love of The Company.

    @thegoryone said in Recruiting Giants:

    friends

    Friends are a distraction, and a sign of weakness. A real engineer thinks about coding, not "buddies". This is why you hire Aspergers because they are robots literally incapable of human contact.

    @Yamikuronue said in Recruiting Giants:

    I have about 36 hours a week in my body before it gives out

    That's because you have a weak, pathetic "female" body that is only suited for complaining about shoes. Have you thought about switching to HR or the cleaning staff, where you belong? And that was a rhetorical question, don't bother answer. The MEN are talking.

    @LB_ said in Recruiting Giants:

    inhumanely

    Repeat after me. They are not humans. They are not people. They are ENGINEERS. They CRAVE this. Really, it's for their own good.

    @RaceProUK said in Recruiting Giants:

    Unless you sign a waiver to that right

    A real engineer will, because they will understand the VALUE of being allowed to work as many hours as they need to satisfy their ITCH, their CRAVING for code. Anyone who would even BLINK about signing away rights like this is NOT A HIRE, because they will be trouble. They'll be more concerned about their "personal life" and "health" and non-engineer things like that. They aren't properly FOCUSED and COMMITTED!

    tldr: fuck this pdf, fuck anyone who wrote it, and anyone who has read it and went "hmm, yes, he makes a good point, I will implement this practice".


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ScholRLEA said in Recruiting Giants:

    It's worse than that; the whole idea is predicated on that same tired old "rock star developer" crap, and then advocates driving those 'rock stars' into an early grave. Brillant!

    There are rock star developers.

    From what I can tell, their useful lives as above average producers is like... One to three years before the corporate hellfires consume them and burn them out into bitter husks.

    Maybe with Sillycon Valley extreme levels of coddling and throwing money around, you can extend that to as many as five.


  • sockdevs

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    No it isn't, because you're female.

    uhh..... yeah n.....

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    tldr: fuck this pdf, fuck anyone who wrote it, and anyone who has read it and went "hmm, yes, he makes a good point, I will implement this practice".

    oh. that's what you're on about. Carry on then.


  • sockdevs

    This post is deleted!

  • area_pol

    This looks like a self-destructive strategy.
    He claims that the company's project is so exciting that this alone will keep the employees. But the company also needs to make money so it cannot do only exciting projects.
    So if he pushing the unrealistic work time, the most skilled people (confident they can get other jobs) will leave, and only the less skilled/experienced (fearing the will not get another job) will stay - exactly the situation the author is afraid of.


  • sockdevs

    @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    This looks likeis a self-destructive strategy.

    FTFY



  • @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    He claims that the company's project is so exciting that this alone will keep the employees. But the company also needs to make money so it cannot do only exciting projects.

    From my management courses, money is not motivating factor but satisfactory factor.

    Just have high wage payment is not enough for retaining people, but have not enough wage payment can push people to other companies.

    Most management courses recommends a "just enough" level of salaries + benefits package plus other positive aspects for retaining people, like challenges, (career and skills) growth opportunities, recognition of good works, title upgrades, bigger personal spaces, etc.



  • @cheong As my mom always said about the figure skating national championships "you can't win the olympics at the championships, but you can sure lose the olympics at the championships".

    Money: necessary but not sufficient.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @cheong Where are these management courses? Can I send WtfCorp senior manglement?



  • @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    uhh..... yeah n.....

    John St. Motherfucker can barely grasp the concept of social interaction. If we bring up non-binary gender his tiny mind will snap.

    Hmmm... I have an idea.



  • @Lorne-Kates I was hoping for a fuck you give me money quote. I am disappointed.

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    uhh..... yeah n.....

    John St. Motherfucker can barely grasp the concept of social interaction. If we bring up non-binary gender his tiny mind will snap.

    Hmmm... I have an idea.

    I can't find it now but didn't he have a nervous breakdown in the late ninties?

    *edit : http://www.informationtechnologyleaders.com/stvid.html


  • sockdevs

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    If we bring up non-binary gender his tiny mind will snap.

    not what i was getting at actually, but you do have a point....



  • @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    He claims that the company's project is so exciting that this alone will keep the employees.

    Then the project must be so exciting that the company shouldn't care about turning a profit. I mean, money shouldn't be a motivating factor, right? It should be the thrill of CREATING an AMAZING THING! It's disgusting that the company would be so focused on making a monetary profit. You aren't working for a company, you're working for their wives investors. Companies don't kill projects, investors do.

    You need to find a young, fresh, hungry company who won't care about quarterly reports, or profits, or salary caps. They want the BEST people, and will throw any sum of money at them. Because the engineering Is The Only Thing That Matters.

    When it comes to companies you have:

    • The Young ones, who are full to the cock with VC capital, space-high ideas, and unlimited budgets for engineers. They will literally give you anything, because they're easy to take advantage of and don't know any better. Use them up, hard. Make them work overtime on paying you. They shouldn't care about salary, they should only care about product!

    • The Old Goats - large stable companies that will actually have benefits, working hours, structure. A few of these can be invaluable to work for, but you won't be able to convince them you're a ROCK STAR

    • Educated Idiots - John St. Asshole. These companies know just enough to be dangerous, and will appear on TDWTF.

    • Mentally Ill. Apparently we're taking advantage of them, still. So hey, if you find someone who is brain damaged and won't notice you embezzling from them, go ahead. It's all fair because it's business! Ethics be damned!



  • @DogsB said in Recruiting Giants:

    @Lorne-Kates I was hoping for a fuck you give me money quote. I am disappointed.

    Money? Please! Money is a sign of weakness. I do it just for the fucks.



  • @Weng said in Recruiting Giants:

    @cheong Where are these management courses? Can I send WtfCorp senior manglement?

    I swear I got into the business. I just need to write up some of my satire posts in a nice font, give myself a fancy title, and do the management-training circuit.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Lorne-Kates into what category does WtfCorp fall?


  • area_pol

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    It's disgusting that the company would be so focused on making a monetary profit.

    It is still hard to believe for me that someone starts a company without an idea how it will make a profit and relies on investors.
    But after some thought, I can see the bright side to that phenomenon.
    In order to attract users, such a company will often provide some free service to the general public. After a few years, the money will end and they will shut down. But for the time of their existence, they managed to create some benefit for the users.


  • sockdevs

    @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    But for the time of their existence, they managed to create some benefit for the users.

    and leave their customers rather in the lurch when they go tits up.

    that's rather why IoT scares me..... what happens to your smart fridge when the company that makes it discontinues the model and repurposes the servers that served your fridge?



  • @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    I swear I got into the business. I just need to write up some of my satire posts in a nice font, give myself a fancy title, and do the management-training circuit.

    Have you ever seen Little Miss Sunshine? The dad in that movie is trying to sell some dumb inspirational management training thing.


  • area_pol

    @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    servers that served your fridge

    I would not allow the devices to connect a server outside my LAN anyway. I would not buy the device if it could not work on LAN by design or relatively simple reverse engineering.


  • sockdevs

    @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    I would not allow the devices to connect a server outside my LAN anyway.

    you might not, and i certainly wouldn't but what of the thousands that will?

    we live in a scary time when you start to consider the ramifications of the technology we're developing.



  • @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    Have you ever seen Little Miss Sunshine?

    Nope.

    @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    The dad in that movie is trying to sell some dumb inspirational management training thing.

    Does his presentation contain a shitty powerpoint with "women be shoppin' amiright"?


  • area_pol

    @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    what of the thousands that will?

    Then we should count such products among the multitude of existing scams that prey on their customers' lack of expertise.


  • sockdevs

    @Adynathos said in Recruiting Giants:

    @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    what of the thousands that will?

    Then we should count such products among the multitude of existing scams that prey on their customers' lack of expertise.

    and we should accept that this is right and proper?

    DO NOT WANT



  • @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    DO NOT WANT

    You know that meme's almost 11 years old now?


  • area_pol

    @accalia We do not accept this - therefore we will not buy their product.
    We will also probably try to educate those in our surroundings about the wrongness of such solutions.
    But what else do you think can be done? We have not even been able to eradicate homeopathy for so many years.



  • @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    I swear I got into the business. I just need to write up some of my satire posts in a nice font, give myself a fancy title, and do the management-training circuit.

    Have you ever seen Little Miss Sunshine? The dad in that movie is trying to sell some dumb inspirational management training thing.

    Yeah, there are tons of people who do that, and they often don't even get paid for it. My father was this 24/7, and it drove me up the fucking wall.

    Then again, Alex St. Jerkoff specializes in selling spyware, such fuck him.



  • @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    I swear I got into the business. I just need to write up some of my satire posts in a nice font, give myself a fancy title, and do the management-training circuit.

    Have you ever seen Little Miss Sunshine? The dad in that movie is trying to sell some dumb inspirational management training thing.

    Yeah, there are tons of people who do that, and they often don't even get paid for it. My father was this 24/7, and it drove me up the fucking wall.

    Then again, Alex St. Jerkoff made his bones in the industry selling spyware, so fuck him.


  • sockdevs

    @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    You know that meme's almost 11 years old now?

    what is a year?



  • Holy shit I wish this were satire.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    DO NOT WANT

    You know that meme's almost 11 years old now?

    Its still perfectly cromulent. Not dank, but cromulent.



  • @accalia said in Recruiting Giants:

    @blakeyrat said in Recruiting Giants:

    You know that meme's almost 11 years old now?

    what is a year?

    More than 1 months ago.

    What's a page?



  • @Lorne-Kates said in Recruiting Giants:

    What's a page?

    According to Google, 'a young boy attending a bride at a wedding'


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