🔥 Forget about clocks, now it's (bad) cucumbers and knives
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Take Stop and Frisk. It was created because the mayor of NYC perceived that blacks and Latinos were the cause of every evil in the city.
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@FrostCat said:
Clearly you don't understand how negotiating works. Your opening bid is beyond what you actually want. I don't actually want to ban all Muslims from coming to the US. I think refusal to consider banning some of them is suicidal.
No negotiation I've been party to has any one person's starting position been more dramatic than what they'd actually be willing to accept.
When I ask for a raise, I don't ask for them to bankrupt the company because I expect them to talk me down.
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@Onyx said:
From what I saw on the movement that spawned that hashtag the participants were mostly full of shit, IMHO.
Some of them weren't even black, so they get kicked out of the movement.
Black Lives Matter Just Excommunicated Shaun King
The leading figures of Black Lives Matter are effectively ejecting New York Daily News journalist Shaun King from the movement
Also, they were embezzling money from the movement...
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@Weng said:
When I ask for a raise, I don't ask for them to bankrupt the company.
...says the guy who works for WtfCorp, amirite?
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@Polygeekery said:
What sort of fucked up, twisted shit are you swallowing where you think that this is any sort of opinion that sane people hold? Maybe at a Klan meeting...but not in general society.
Apparently between 25 - 50% of the Republican Party.
See: Trump, Donald J - primary vote %.
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@Onyx said:
If I say I want to see Scientology gone, does that mean I want to kill Tom Cruise?
If you do, I will happily be a co-conspirator.
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@CoyneTheDup you must be getting the aluminium foil in bulk. Got a good supplier?
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@Onyx said:
@CoyneTheDup How does that change what I said in any way? Are you saying "A Muslim" is not a person? Are you saying "Islam" is a person or a group of people? If I say I want to see Scientology gone, does that mean I want to kill Tom Cruise?
You said:
@Maciejasjmj That's why I said "Islam" (ideology), not "Muslims" (people). But this distinctions seems to be hard for people, so I agree. That's where most of these statistic imbalances most likely stem from, too.
You can't drop the pretense that you're talking about the people who hold the ideology, by claiming you're only talking about the ideology. Especially when you mention statistics on the people.
According to one figure I saw, there are less than 200,000 terrorists in the world. Even if they were every single one Muslim, which I'm not willing to grant, that amounts to 0.013% of the total Muslim population. Bigots usually weasel word it, but what they mean is, "Every single Muslim is a terrorist!" and how does that compare with 0.013%?
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@darkmatter said:
Apparently between 25 - 50% of the Republican Party.
See: Trump, Donald J - primary vote %.So you are saying that 25-50% of voters believe that:
@CoyneTheDup said:
Blacks are all thugs, gang-bangers, welfare cheats, and prostitutes that deserve to be murdered at the slightest pretext
Or are you saying that Trump has said that:
@CoyneTheDup said:
Blacks are all thugs, gang-bangers, welfare cheats, and prostitutes that deserve to be murdered at the slightest pretext
Because if he has, I sure as hell have not seen it and the news lately is nothing but Trump. I think I would have noticed that...
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@CoyneTheDup so what you are saying is that you believe it's impossible for someone to change their opinions about an ideology, or prove that some or all tenants of an ideology should be reconsidered and/or discarded?
If that is the case than this conversation is over since I'm hitting an immovable object no matter what I say.
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@Onyx said:
@CoyneTheDup so what you are saying is that you believe it's impossible for someone to change their opinions about an ideology, or prove that some or all tenants of an ideology should be reconsidered and/or discarded?
If this is preparatory to the repeatedly and categorically discredited argument that Islam the ideology mandates terrorism, then yes, you just as well save your breath.
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Islam the ideology mandates terrorism
No. But it contains elements that can be interpreted as such, as do other Abrachamic religions. However, while these elements would be heavily criticized and marginalized if the Pope started preaching them, when an Imam does it everyone is just silent about it because, what you're gonna do, eh?
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Granted, you aren't going to find literally that exact sentence. Which is the same hand-waving they're doing when they make these pro-discrimination laws.
I don't think 25-50% of the people following Trump are actually FOR that stance. I think that most of them merely don't care if someone is elected that has that stance. Mainly because if it doesn't directly impact them, they don't give a crap. Clearly there are some that are specifically for Trump because of it though - see: Duke, David. Or any of the other white supremacist groups that have formed superPACs in his name, robocalled voters, etc.
As for Trump himself... well his call for the US to execute everyone related to a Muslim extremist is probably as close to literally matching that statement as you'll ever see a US politician get to outright condoning genocide. At least, I hope it is.
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@Onyx said:
The law under which the kid was reported applies to everyone,
In theory.
In practice, it applies disproportionately to people of Middle-Eastern descent because
@Onyx said:
someone chooses to apply that law based on race
because the law itself is designed to play to the same racist bullshit that politicians have been cultivating for the past fifteen years.
ETA:
'd by @CoyneTheDup
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@Onyx said:
If we could slap down Islam's bullshit like we did with Christianity ages ago I suspect there would be some positive movement in this regard.
But instead we're doing exactly what the terrorists want; slapping down all of Islam, driving the good ones back into ISIS' hands for conversion or execution.
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@darkmatter said:
I don't think 25-50% of the people following Trump are actually FOR that stance. I think that most of them merely don't care if someone is elected that has that stance. Mainly because if it doesn't directly impact them, they don't give a crap. Clearly there are some that are specifically for Trump because of it though - see: Duke, David. Or any of the other white supremacist groups that have formed superPACs in his name, robocalled voters, etc.
I've actually been saying this for a while. The problem is not that everyone who supports Trump actively supports the discriminatory bullshit he proposes. The problem is that everyone who supports Trump either does actively support said bullshit, or is willing to compromise on such a vital, basic moral question in favor of his other stances - namely, ones which benefit them financially. So no, not everyone who supports Trump is a racist piece of shit. But everyone who supports Trump is still a morally bankrupt piece of shit. "I would rather make millions suffer and die than pay fair taxes." is not really all that much better than "I want to make millions suffer and die."
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@Fox said:
But instead we're doing exactly what the terrorists want; slapping down all of Islam
Hey, HEY! I slap down all religions equally, TYVM. I just don't focus on individuals unless they are pushing their bullshit on me.
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@Onyx said:
or prove that some or all tenants of an ideology should be reconsidered and/or discarded?
An ideology has housing for rent? Cool! Is the price right? Is the landlord reasonable?
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@Groaner Not really, it autocorrects your words to what it thinks is right.
(I meant tenet, naturally, but my phone felt like being "useful")
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@darkmatter said:
Clearly there are some that are specifically for Trump because of it though - see: Duke, David. Or any of the other white supremacist groups that have formed superPACs in his name, robocalled voters, etc.
I think that anyone supporting Trump because of some position he has spoken in favor of at some point is confused in thinking that it represents some sort of belief or value held by Donald Trump. I think most people are supporting him simply because they're pissed off at all of the politicians and all of the politicians are pissed off at Trump.
The people screaming about Trump being a Nazi or whatever are just being silly.
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@Fox said:
But instead we're doing exactly what the terrorists want; slapping down all of Islam, driving the good ones back into ISIS' hands for conversion or execution.
That's just wishful thinking or projection on your part, I think.
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@Weng said:
@FrostCat said:
Clearly you don't understand how negotiating works. Your opening bid is beyond what you actually want. I don't actually want to ban all Muslims from coming to the US. I think refusal to consider banning some of them is suicidal.
No negotiation I've been party to has any one person's starting position been more dramatic than what they'd actually be willing to accept.
"Doctor, I have chest pains."
"Call your insurance company. We'd better make sure they'll cover open-heart surgery to address the 1% chance it's not just heartburn or muscle soreness!"
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@Groaner Is that supposed to be an analogy?
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@Onyx said:
@Groaner Not really, it autocorrects your words to what it thinks is right.
(I meant tenet, naturally, but my phone felt like being "useful")
Shitsux. At least the NodeBB Mobile Experience seems to be more pleasant than the Discourse Mobile Experience so far.
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@Weng said:
@Groaner Is that supposed to be an analogy?
Yes! And one in which I was agreeing with the point you were making.
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@Groaner I'm... Not seeing the correlation. Unless the point is to be absurd.
But you agree with me and therefore your rhetorical failings are acceptable.
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@boomzilla said:
@Fox said:
But instead we're doing exactly what the terrorists want; slapping down all of Islam, driving the good ones back into ISIS' hands for conversion or execution.
That's just wishful thinking or projection on your part, I think.
No it isn't. There have been numerous reports that this is ISIS' strategy in attacking Europe. They want any refugees to be sent back with newfound hatred for the West and enough desperation to try anything.
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@Onyx said:
No. But it contains elements that can be interpreted as such, as do other Abrachamic religions. However, while these elements would be heavily criticized and marginalized if the Pope started preaching them, when an Imam does it everyone is just silent about it because, what you're gonna do, eh?
Part of the problem is that neither Islam nor Christianity is fully centralized. The Pope does not control every Christian, despite presumptions to the contrary, and there are teachers within the Christian churches that do not recognize the Papacy, that have some very ugly beliefs. The Branch Davidians come to mind right off, but there are many churches that act as focal points for right wing extremism.
Islam is less centralized and so there is more attention given to branches of the faith that focus on Jihad. But none of those is mainstream when stacked up against the 1.6 billion believers today. Wahabism, the canonical example, is probably less than 0.03% of the overall community. Even the mainstream Shia and Sunni groups account for 0.17% and 0.55% respectively.
As I noted above, there are probably less than 200,000 terrorists--all stripes combined--worldwide, which if they all truly were Islamic, would amount to 0.0013%, 1 in 77,000. Which does not match well with the bigoted "every Muslim is a terrorist" argument. (I remembered it rounded as 200K; this Techdirt article says 184K.)
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@CoyneTheDup oops...
Report: Nixon’s war on drugs targeted black people | CNN Politics
One of Richard Nixon’s top advisers and a key figure in the Watergate scandal said the war on drugs was created as a political tool to fight blacks and hippies, according to a 22-year-old interview recently published in Harper’s Magazine.
totally not racist though, plenty of the hippies were white, you see.
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@darkmatter said:
plenty of the hippies were white
Maybe they would have been if they ever washed. Filthy stinky hippies
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@Fox said:
There have been numerous reports that this is ISIS' strategy in attacking Europe.
Is that coming from one of your news sources? Or a real and credible news source that does not exist in fantasy land?
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@Onyx said:
Fucking humans. I feel like I should go over to the zoo and apologise to the rest of the ape family again.
I feel the same way man.
Not sure why I still read this kind of discussions.
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@Polygeekery said:
@Fox said:
There have been numerous reports that this is ISIS' strategy in attacking Europe.
Is that coming from one of your news sources? Or a real and credible news source that does not exist in fantasy land?
And what else do you think is going to happen? Whether ISIS has it as a conscious strategy or they're too dumb to realize that, it's still a logical consequence that the more you try to press down on Muslims, the more likely it is that when someone comes up to them and says "hey, you see how they hate you? You should fight back", they'll agree.
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@Maciejasjmj said:
they'll agree.
We don't know if this is all that is playing but last week they arrested one of the guys that was part of the Paris attacks. During his arrest several small riots broke out in the neighboring streets because local residents, read: from North-African descend, where angry that police showed up in full riot gear ... to arrest someone that escaped arrest the week before by having a compatriot fire with high calibre through the door when they rang the bell.
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Even the mainstream Shia and Sunni groups account for 0.17% and 0.55% respectively.
Those particular figures are suspicious. Please recheck/show your calculations.
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@Polygeekery https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/16/the-islamic-state-wants-you-to-hate-refugees/
Is the Washington Post "imaginary" to you?
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@Fox said:
@Polygeekery https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/16/the-islamic-state-wants-you-to-hate-refugees/
Is the Washington Post "imaginary" to you?
No, but they are frequently batshit crazy.
I can see why you would like them.
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@Polygeekery And direct quotes from counterterrorism experts are also "batshit crazy", I guess?
counterterrorism analyst Harleen Gambhir said the Islamic State had deliberately "set a trap" for Europe with the Paris attacks:
The strategy is explicit. The Islamic State explained after the January attacks on Charlie Hebdo magazine that such attacks “compel the Crusaders to actively destroy the grayzone themselves. . . . Muslims in the West will quickly find themselves between one of two choices, they either apostatize . . . or they [emigrate] to the Islamic State and thereby escape persecution from the Crusader governments and citizens.” The group calculates that a small number of attackers can profoundly shift the way that European society views its 44 million Muslim members and, as a result, the way European Muslims view themselves. Through this provocation, it seeks to set conditions for an apocalyptic war with the West.
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Which does not match well with the bigoted "every Muslim is a terrorist" argument.
Who are you arguing with here? Has anyone here said that? Or are you doing the Fox-style "All A are B == All B are A" like a complete moron?
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@Magus said:
Who are you arguing with here? Has anyone here said that? Or are you doing the Fox-style "All A are B == All B are A" like a complete moron?
Oops, you're correct, that's not the "proper" way to say it. Here, fixed: Which does not match well with the bigoted "
every Muslim is a terrorist""Muslims are terrorists" argument.
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@CoyneTheDup Yes, you're a horrible bigot, we get it.
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Which does not match well with the bigoted "every Muslim is a terrorist""Muslims are terrorists" argument.
But last I checked most terrorists were Muslim. Correlation is evident, and I'm pretty sure I established a causal link above as well.
Also, excuse the pedantry, but "bigotry" is usually defined as prejudice based on factors a person can't change, like race or gender, not religious beliefs. Those can change or be adapted. I'm not saying it's an easy thing to deny your heritage, but if your heritage is full of things that are wrong, morally or factually, I expect anyone to at least consider it.
But oh wait, most Muslims are too afraid to do it because apostates are threatened and actually killed. And us infidels can't criticize shit instead of them because it's "bigoted" to do so.
Once again, do you see how "Islam" as a religion can be separated from a "Muslim" which is a person who is a part of that religion? Can you see how I can criticize one of those things in general without criticizing the other?
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@Onyx We already established that he believes that even "Some A are B == All B are A" - you aren't going to get through to him any more than you can get through to Fox. They will value the emotional connection between the people and the religion to the point where you cannot separate the two.
It's never simple. They now believe that if you think any Muslim has ever done a bad thing, you believe all of them are evil, and that any denial of that is simply you trying to hide your guilt. You're fighting a battle you cannot win.
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@Magus said:
You're fighting a battle you cannot win.
Very likely. But I kinda want to see how deep the
rabbitfallacy hole goes...
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@Onyx Maybe we can get Ben to rename this thread Continued Guacamole?
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Let's try it this way: 99.87% of Muslims are peaceful, not planning any terrorist act.
How does that in any way justify the death of the refugees? Forcing them to die in a land that has rejected them? Because we fear that allowing even one Muslim across the border means a terrorist act will certainly follow?
How does that in any way justify a program under UK's Prevent that reports radicalization, under which 67% of all reports have involved Muslim students? How does that justify a 4-year old being reported as radicalized for drawing a knife and a cucumber?
How does that justify a 14-year old being arrested for bringing a clock to school--even if the pieces were hand-assembled into a box?
How does that justify a workplace shooting being called a terrorist act? Yes there were 14 deaths and 24 injuries--but in the Aurora, Colorado theater shooting there were 12 deaths and 70 injured, the shooter intended to kill everyone present. Yet that is not called an act of terror, despite the terrorizing of the entire city. Why should the fact that the San Bernadino shooters being Muslim justify a label of "terrorist", but the fact that the Aurora shooter was not Muslim make it an ordinary crime? (If your response is, "Well there were two people involved," then how about the Pittsburgh attack?)
Worldwide, 2% of terrorist acts in the last 5 years were committed by Muslims; all others by other groups. How does this justify Donald Trump's statement that "all terrorists are Muslim"?
What justifies the media covering only Muslim terrorism?
All that and still people make weasel-worded statements that mean, under even the most shallow analysis, "all Muslims are terrorist." We can't allow a single Muslim from Syria into our country because...terrorist. We can't allow a Mosque to be built in [neighborhood] because...terrorists. We must create anti-
radicalizationterrorist programs that report mostly Muslims...because terrorists.If believing that "all Muslims are terrorists" is a "fallacy", why do you permit anyone to hold that position without challenge? Or is it that, privately (search your heart) you hold that "any Muslim is peaceful" as the fallacy?
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@CoyneTheDup said:
Let's try it this way: 99.87% of Muslims are peaceful, not planning any terrorist act.
True. That doesn't invalidate any of my statements.
@CoyneTheDup said:
How does that justify a 4-year old being reported as radicalized for drawing a knife and a cucumber?
Who here said it does? Who here even said that law is a sane piece of legislature? The people who pointed out that the same happened to other kids as well and that was bullshit as much as this case? Those people?
@CoyneTheDup said:
How does this justify Donald Trump's statement that "all terrorists are Muslim"?
Damn it... USA IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT THE FUCKING WORLD. I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT DONALD FUCKING TRUMP SAID. FUCK NOT GIVEN. Can we please have a fucking discussion without bringing US fucking politics into it? I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT TRUMP.
@CoyneTheDup said:
What justifies the media covering only Muslim terrorism?
Holy cherrypicking Batman! What the hell do you think @FrostCat was saying here?
@FrostCat said:
There's no indication of any kind that this kid's religion has anything to do with his getting in trouble. Therefore it's irresponsible to even mention it, because it winds fucktards like you up, who are more than willing to assume it's soi-disant "Islamophobia" in the absence of evidence that ever entered into the decision
To me, using my analytical skills, this reads as @FrostCat saying: The kid was wronged. It's irrelevant what his religion, or the religion of his parents is. The media is just using the fact that he is Muslim as a cheap way to drum up the controversy and get viewership/clicks. He's calling out the same damned thing you're complaining about!
The rest of the post above the line are assertions about me apparently believing stuff about events I have no or insufficient knowledge of so I won't even bother with it.
@CoyneTheDup said:
All that and still people make weasel-worded statements that mean, under even the most shallow analysis, "all Muslims are terrorist."
You really cannot into logic, can you?
@CoyneTheDup said:
If believing that "all Muslims are terrorists" is a "fallacy", why do you permit anyone to hold that position without challenge?
I stated, multiple times, that this is the wrong mode of thinking and that I disagree with people who engage in it. And I will challenge them on it because it's bullshit.
@CoyneTheDup said:
Or is it that, privately (search your heart) you hold that "any Muslim is peaceful" as the fallacy?
Heart? It's a pump, what does that have to.. oooh, wait, metaphorically. This is about the feelies! So you feel I'm hating on all Muslims, so it is so. Reason and logic be damned. Gotcha.
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@CoyneTheDup said:
What justifies the media covering only Muslim terrorism?
Stop using shitty media? Really ... per capitalism rule every second you use shitty media means you justify their shitty existence.
Even when I watched the special news show on Tuesday evening on Belgium television there where non-radical Muslim voices brought in. As the week progressed these even became more prominent as the focus shifts more from the events itself to the steps to be taken.
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@Luhmann said:
non-radical Muslim voices
Come to think of it ... it wasn't even non-radical there where even voices that are 'radical' in some way but non-violent. e.g. they are radically in their proposed solutions and political views and not in their religious views.
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@Onyx said:
Very likely. But I kinda want to see how deep the
rabbitfallacy hole goes...It's a bottomless pit.
