🔥 Liberals need to be told that hitchhiking in Muslim countries greatly increases your chance of encounters with rapists and murderers, apparently.
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Soooo we're back to pure, unadulterated victim blaming.
When I was in Rome, I was robbed on the subway.
I found out.
- I shouldn't have carried that type of purse
- I shouldn't have let someone ask me what time it was
- I shouldn't have not paid attention to everyone
Guess what happened the following days.
- I kept my hand in that type of purse all day long.
- I didn't answer anyone.
- I paid attention to my surroundings.
I did not go into their police office and ask for their cop to be fired for victim blaming.
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Soooo we're back to pure, unadulterated victim blaming
I guess. Let's be honest, sometimes victims deserve to be blamed, too, at least in plain language. The term "victim blaming" seems to really mean shifting blame from the perpetrator to the victim. If that's what you meant, then no, we're not back to that.
I mean, she shouldn't have hitchhiked, she shouldn't have worn that dress, she shouldn't have been so nice, where's the line?
I dunno...was she dressed in a culturally inappropriate way for the region? I didn't RTFA or anything, but sure, a woman wearing a normal western dress in Saudi Arabia would be doing something dumb that's not going to end well.
"Acting nice..." We tell kids not to get friendly with strangers for this reason. Did she "act nice" to her attacker? I suppose no one knows.
But somehow I don't think you were really asking a question there, so I should probably stop answering like you were.
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At my university most of them were from Saudi Arabia.
Aw fuck dude, you picked the worst country for women. No wonder.
A sufficiently concerning number of men there will rape you for showing ankles. Then throw you in prison for complaining about it. And their mothers will agree with what happened.
Syria, Pakistan, no, but Saudi.... geez....
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I dunno...was she dressed in a culturally inappropriate way for the region?
She was wearing a wedding dress.
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Certain parts, which is why they put up the sign. If it was generally that dangerous, they wouldn't need a sign saying it was particularly dangerous there.
No, it's simply more dangerous. There's a reason why tips for single women looking to hitchhike include advice like:
- Write down the license plate and send a text to a friend
- Look self-confident and make eye contact.
- Dress modestly.
But, sure, it's not dangerous!
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Now if you bring in some actual statistics that shows that Muslim countries are more dangerous than countries in equal situations, then you'd have a point. And @Maciejasjmj would have a harder time debating your point.
No, because it doesn't matter if one group has 0,1% of rapists in it, and the other 0,01%. The only people you should treat as rapists are people who actually did rape another person.
A lot of women are preemptively distrustful and fearful of men that they won't hitchhike even in countries where that's relatively safe.
Yes, and they're labeled crazy man-hating feminists who delude themselves into thinking all men are pigs.
If she was intentionally going out of her way to encounter Muslims because she was trying to prove that all Muslims are friendly and harmless in spite of evidence to the contrary, and one of them killed her, then yes.
So I guess if said woman was going out of her way to talk to men because she doesn't think all men are crazy, and one of the men raped and killed her, she'd be just as stupid.
As I said, it only takes one. Not "all Muslims". Just one.
Not all men either, just one.
It's not that all Muslims are rapists or condone it. It's that you're completely delusional if you think that all Muslims aren't, or that the risk is even remotely comparable with that in Western countries.
It's not that all men are rapists or condone it, it's that you're completely delusional if you think that all men aren't or that the risk is even remotely comparable with that involved with women.
Not so easy when it's a group you yourself identify with, eh?
I found out.
I shouldn't have carried that type of purse
I shouldn't have let someone ask me what time it was
I shouldn't have not paid attention to everyoneActually you just shouldn't have left the hotel. Or the US, for that matter.
I did not go into their police office and ask for their cop to be fired for victim blaming.
So you accept being labeled as stupid for answering someone who asks you for time? I guess anyone who doesn't just bark at all the people around them and tries to stay as far away from them as possible is a total moron then.
I guess. Let's be honest, sometimes victims deserve to be blamed, too, at least in plain language. The term "victim blaming" seems to really mean shifting blame from the perpetrator to the victim. If that's what you meant, then no, we're not back to that.
But we're shifting the blame from the perpetrator both to the victim and to the perpetrator's religion, country, ethnic group... Doing basically anything but admitting that guy, himself, was crazy and violent.
I dunno...was she dressed in a culturally inappropriate way for the region? I didn't RTFA or anything, but sure, a woman wearing a normal western dress in Saudi Arabia would be doing something dumb that's not going to end well.
"Acting nice..." We tell kids not to get friendly with strangers for this reason. Did she "act nice" to her attacker? I suppose no one knows.
But somehow I don't think you were really asking a question there, so I should probably stop answering like you were.
No, I mean it. Where's the line between "social interaction" and "asking for it"? Apparently it's even further than "being nice to people" - I don't know, "looking at people"? I guess that could trigger someone's inner rapist too.
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@anotherusername said:
Certain parts, which is why they put up the sign. If it was generally that dangerous, they wouldn't need a sign saying it was particularly dangerous there.
No, it's simply more dangerous. There's a reason why tips for single women looking to hitchhike include advice like:
- Write down the license plate and send a text to a friend
- Look self-confident and make eye contact.
- Dress modestly.
But, sure, it's not dangerous!
I didn't say it wasn't dangerous. Crossing the street is dangerous. Hitchhiking is dangerous. So is picking up hitchhikers. Hitchhiking alone is more dangerous; even more so for women. Yet... the tips that you listed prove that it's possible for women to do it, and they do it everyday, and it's pretty rare for one of them to be raped or murdered by the man who picked her up. Or else the tips would be a lot simpler:
- Don't.
On the scale of dangerous, though, "hitchhiking alone, as a woman, in a Muslim country" just takes the cake. That goes way beyond what any sane individual should risk actually doing. In other words, don't.
Yes, and they're labeled crazy man-hating feminists who delude themselves into thinking all men are pigs.
Nobody is calling any women "crazy man-hating feminists" just because they won't hitchhike with strange men. I wouldn't even hitchhike with strange men. Or with strange women for that matter. There's too high a chance that one of them is crazy, has a gun, wants my money, etc.
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It's not that all men are rapists or condone it, it's that you're completely delusional if you think that all men aren't or that the risk is even remotely comparable with that involved with women.
Not so easy when it's a group you yourself identify with, eh?
No, that sounds like a fair statement. Except for the part about the risk being even remotely comparable with that involved with women; while rapists are more likely to be men, the ratio is not that severe that there's not even any remote comparison.
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But we're shifting the blame
We are not. At least, not a we that includes me.
...both to the victim and to the perpetrator's religion, country, ethnic group...
Well, her purpose was to prove the opposite. It's not like we're looking at some random incident and making a generalization.
No, I mean it. Where's the line between "social interaction" and "asking for it"? Apparently it's even further than "being nice to people" - I don't know, "looking at people"? I guess that could trigger someone's inner rapist too.
Depends on the context. I don't know enough about Turkey to say what's what on that front. Do you act identical in all social situations?
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No, because it doesn't matter if one group has 0,1% of rapists in it, and the other 0,01%. The only people you should treat as rapists are people who actually did rape another person.
His point is that it is stupid, because that country is more dangerous to hitchhike through.
All he has to show is that it IS more dangerous to hitchhike through.
He's not saying that she's stupid for trying to prove Muslim countries peaceful.
- You're injecting that into his argument.
- That's not even what she tried to do.
Yes, and they're labeled crazy man-hating feminists who delude themselves into thinking all men are pigs.
Again, you're injecting here.
- A woman that doesn't feel safe hitchhiking is not man hating.
- A woman that blames all men for rape is man hating.
I know you are saying other people are saying this about feminists, but you're strawmanning anti-extreme-feminist arguments to make your point.
Not all men either, just one.
Or a woman. A woman with a strap-on.
Actually you just shouldn't have left the hotel. Or the US, for that matter.
The police told me this.
You seem to have a problem with taking relative caution. You seesaw from doing nothing because it's the criminal's fault, to blaming the victim. Apparently you think taking rational steps to reduce your chance of being a victim is absolutely insane, but only for political talking point reasons.
So you accept being labeled as stupid for answering someone who asks you for time?
Ok, you're right. I should have just stood there barking my head off at the cop, that would have brought my money back. (In fact it was an unsuccessful attempt, we caught the hand in the purse before it was too late. We were simply reporting the crime).
But we're shifting the blame from the perpetrator both to the victim and to the perpetrator's religion, country, ethnic group... Doing basically anything but admitting that guy, himself, was crazy and violent.
Your crusade of stopping victim blaming doesn't stop a single rape.
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Nobody is calling any women "crazy man-hating feminists" just because they won't hitchhike with strange men. I wouldn't even hitchhike with strange men. Or with strange women for that matter.
That edit misses the point. The point is, according to you, she should've been more okay hitchhiking with strange non-X than with strange X, for X in {men, Muslims}.
while rapists are more likely to be men, the ratio is not that severe that there's not even any remote comparison.
Unlike between Muslims and non-Muslims? Yeah, I'd like to see that backed with data.
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A woman that doesn't feel safe hitchhiking is not man hating.
Oh and by the way.
The reason why you would project that onto this type of argument, is because it's typically how liberals make their arguments.
Like this one:
If you cross the street because someone is dressed by a thug, you are racist, if they happen to also be black. It is indistinguishable why you crossed the street, because we'll never believe what you say. Therefore, we've eliminated the impossible (what's impossible for us to believe) and reduced it to the only option left. You are racist.
Therefore you argue that not feeling safe hitchhiking must be something a non-feminist would suspect is man-hating.
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On the scale of dangerous, though, "hitchhiking alone, as a woman, in a Muslim country" just takes the cake.
So, you take one incident and draw broad and sweeping conclusions from them, even when pointed out that this makes you look like a moron.
Oh, well.
No use arguing with the likes of you.
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So, you take one incident and draw broad and sweeping conclusions from them, even when pointed out that this makes you look like a moron.
What if she decided to spend a night in every jail cell at a prison full of men.
Not all prisoners are rapists.
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Well, her purpose was to prove the opposite. It's not like we're looking at some random incident and making a generalization.
Well, the problem is that a lightning strike also doesn't care whether you wanted to prove that a lightning strike hitting a human is rare or not.
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What if she decided to spend a night in every jail cell at a prison full of men.
What if she spent a night with an idiot named xaade?
What if, man. What if!
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The point is, according to you, she should've been more okay hitchhiking with strange non-X than with strange X, for X in {men, Muslims}.
Yes.
I think you got the logic all wrong there, but I think yes is the correct answer to what I think you're trying to say.
Unlike between Muslims and non-Muslims? Yeah, I'd like to see that backed with data.
Go google "worst countries in the world for women" and go check the Wikipedia article for each of them to see what percentage of the demographic Islam holds. I'll wait.
Actually, that goes for you too:
So, you take one incident and draw broad and sweeping conclusions from them
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@boomzilla said:
Well, her purpose was to prove the opposite. It's not like we're looking at some random incident and making a generalization.
Well, the problem is that a lightning strike also doesn't care whether you wanted to prove that a lightning strike hitting a human is rare or not.
Does it care that you don't seem to have a point?
Suppose she had wanted to prove that walking around carrying a golf club in a thunderstorm was safe? And then she got struck by lightning. Would you object if after the fact someone talked about the golf club?
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What if she spent a night with an idiot named xaade?
What if, man. What if!
Yeah, let's say she spent every night with a random man, sleeping in their second bedroom.
Is that stupid?
Is it stupid to take a risk without managing that risk?
What about in the marketplace?
A business fails because they invested in solar roadways. Is it stupid? Stop victim blaming? Nope, everyone should continue to casually invest in whatever, because all businesses should be on the up and up.
Would you like your retirement firm to invest like that?
Would you be ok with a daughter of yours doing this hitchhike?
At what point do you decide to exercise caution?
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I think you're a bit confused on the whole cause and effect thing.
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And you're confused on statistics and risk management.
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No, I'm not. If you go hunting in a brown leather jacket and someone mistakenly shoots you, they might've caused your death but you're still a fucking idiot.
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Does it care that you don't seem to have a point?
Suppose she had wanted to prove that walking around carrying a golf club in a thunderstorm was safe? And then she got struck by lightning. Would you object if after the fact someone talked about the golf club?
Does it care that you're comparing apples to meteorites?
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No, I'm not. If you go hunting in a brown leather jacket and someone mistakenly shoots you, they might've caused your death but you're still a fucking idiot.
And if someone makes a racist post in a forum and gets called out on it, he's still a racist moron. So there.
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No, I'm not. If you go hunting in a brown leather jacket and someone shoots you, they caused your death but you're still a fucking idiot.
At the same time
Hold on because this is a fucking miracle of logic that liberals don't get.
At the same fucking time, it could be the shooter's fault for not checking downrange.
So both people could be idiots at the same time.
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And if someone makes a racist post in a forum and gets called out on it, he's still a racist moron. So there.
What is it, then, when someone confuses "facts" with "racism"?
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The problem is that both of you have points, but you're so far on each side of a seesaw that you're going to be arguing nonsense for a while.
Meanwhile, I'm going to use that organ in my head and determine that there is elevated risk, and take a few precautions to reduce risk, and get on with my life.
@anotherusername it could be misinterpreted that you are indicating all Muslims are barbaric, which isn't true. And I think you did say some things that gave me that impression, even though you later clarify. It's up to the reader to determine which you meant. Which means it's better to clarify as early as possible.
@Rhywden yes, there is elevated risk as a woman hitchhiking through Turkey or Saudi. You can look up Sharia law polls and see it for yourself. That doesn't mean that all Muslims are responsible for rape. But criminals don't care about political correctness. And all this crusading doesn't stop one bit of violence.
@boomzilla Nothing... just messing with you.
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Soooo we're back to pure, unadulterated victim blaming. I mean, she shouldn't have hitchhiked, she shouldn't have worn that dress, she shouldn't have been so nice, where's the line?
It is not "victim blaming". She absolutely put herself in to very risky and dangerous situations. When a person knowingly puts themselves in to such situations, especially to prove such a stupid point, I lose some sympathy for them.
Does it excuse the rapist/murderer? Fuck no. But the fact of the matter is that she chose to hitchhike across a nation that has an absolutely deplorable record for women's rights.
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Also, what is it with people trying to intentionally confuse religion with race? First @Maciejasjmj and now you...
Since when is it racist to bash religion, or a particular religion? Much less to bash a particular religion for its long and broad record of treating women absolutely horribly?
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No, it's simply more dangerous. There's a reason why tips for single women looking to hitchhike include advice like:
Write down the license plate and send a text to a friend
Look self-confident and make eye contact.
Dress modestly.But, sure, it's not dangerous!
The tips for single women looking to hitchhike should be "Don't fucking do it!!". Hell, that works for both sexes.
But I guess that is victim blaming...
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The tips for single women looking to hitchhike should be "Don't fucking do it!!". Hell, that works for both sexes.
I wouldn't hitchhike alone and I'm an armed male of decent fitness...
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This is why I don't give a damn about fault.
Fault is only useful for philosophical or political conversation.
Even cats will stop taking meat if you hang them for doing it. Even other cats will stop if they see hanging cats.
Interesting Jewish law.
If your animal kills a man, kill the animal.
If your animal kills another man, kill the owner.
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If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in
the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the
cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered
meat?The most heartening part of that story is this bit:
Politicians including Prime Minister John Howard, community leaders and **a large number of Muslims condemned the mufti's comments** amid calls that he should be deported to Egypt, his country of origin.
See, they're not all bad. I fully recognize that. There's a lot of good ones. I wish more of the good ones would actually speak out condemning the bad ones.
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he should be deported to Egypt
Oh, there's that country again.
You know, the one where 40 million of them are ok with stoning non-Muslim women.
Surprise surprise.
Debating with a Saudi Muslim myself. He said, "but there's no crime in Saudi thanks to Sharia".
I said, "that's because you legalized crime".
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No, because it doesn't matter if one group has 0,1% of rapists in it, and the other 0,01%. The only people you should treat as rapists are people who actually did rape another person.
Bullshit. If you are a single woman traveling in a strange area (whether foreign or domestic to you), you should treat everyone as a rapist. Keep your guard up, because bad shit happens.
Yes, and they're labeled crazy man-hating feminists who delude themselves into thinking all men are pigs.
Really? I would label a woman who won't hitchhike as "smart" and "less likely to get raped and/or murdered".
Actually you just shouldn't have left the hotel. Or the US, for that matter.
No, he was just smarter after that.
But we're shifting the blame from the perpetrator both to the victim and to the perpetrator's religion, country, ethnic group... Doing basically anything but admitting that guy, himself, was crazy and violent.
She shouldn't have been hitchhiking, just to make a point, in a strange land known for women not having rights. That is not victim blaming as you mean it.
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It's not like we're looking at some random incident and making a generalization.
What do you mean? It's exactly what's going on in this thread!
That she had proving Muslims are okay in mind might be an irony, but it neither makes the crime any less heinous, nor the perpetrator himself any less guilty, nor the group responsibility any more okay.
Depends on the context. I don't know enough about Turkey to say what's what on that front. Do you act identical in all social situations?
I'm certainly not running away from people on the off chance they might want to rape or murder me, duh. In any social situation.
His point is that it is stupid, because that country is more dangerous to hitchhike through.
All he has to show is that it IS more dangerous to hitchhike through.
So if the statistics say men are more likely to commit murder than women (which, by the way, is true by a huge margin), it would be this much more stupid to hitchhike with a man than with a woman? Or engage in any other social activity, for that matter?
Again, you're injecting here.
A woman that doesn't feel safe hitchhiking is not man hating.
What about a woman that doesn't feel safe hitchhiking specifically with men? What about a woman who doesn't feel safe around men, just because they're men?
Unless we're having a debate on whether hitchhiking is dangerous or not, in which case yes it is, sure. But that's not what we're debating.
A woman that blames all men for rape is man hating.
But blaming Muslims in general for rape is a-okay.
You seem to have a problem with taking relative caution. You seesaw from doing nothing because it's the criminal's fault, to blaming the victim. Apparently you think taking rational steps to reduce your chance of being a victim is absolutely insane, but only for political talking point reasons.
No, but you think anyone who doesn't take every single step to prevent themselves from being mugged, raped, killed, etc, deserves anything that was coming to them.
You could take those precautions, but it shouldn't be your responsibility to do so. It's as if the cop in your story rrefused to take your case on the basis that "well duh, you were in Rome/on the subway/answering someone asking for time, it's your fault".
Your crusade of stopping victim blaming doesn't stop a single rape.
So the ends justify the means? As long as the amount of rapes drop, it's okay if we tell women to cover their heathen bodies and steer clear of men?
Go google "worst countries in the world for women" and go check the Wikipedia article for each of them to see what percentage of the demographic Islam holds.
Nonononono, your assertion was that:
while rapists are more likely to be men, the ratio is not that severe that there's not even any remote comparison.
2011 arrest data from the FBI: Males comprised 98.0% of those arrested for forcible rape
So in order to consider this ratio "not that severe" and the ratio of Muslim rape perpetrators to all rape perpetrators "severe", you'd have to fetch data with, let's be generous, about 99,8%. I'll wait.
Yeah, let's say she spent every night with a random man, sleeping in their second bedroom.
So if your flatmate rapes you, it's your problem. Ooookay.
Also, what is it with people trying to intentionally confuse religion with race?
Frankly it doesn't say anything in the article that the perpetrator was Muslim or Arab, so it's all your baseless conjecture anyway, but hey.
It is not "victim blaming". She absolutely put herself in to very risky and dangerous situations.
What makes traveling with a Muslim more dangerous than traveling with a white clean-shaved man? Because, if you haven't noticed, @anotherusername isn't calling for a Darwin award for hitchhiking, just hitchhiking with Muslims.
And let's be honest, if she was just trying to get from point A to point B and not being liberal, the whole peanut gallery here would be bleeding their hearts away. But hey, a liberal is half a person.
If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?
Yeeeeah, it's funny how when the Muslim imam or Cologne mayor makes that point it's outrageous, but when it's conservative media it's totally okay.
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@anotherusername said:
he should be deported to Egypt
Oh, there's that country again.
You know, the one where 40 million of them are ok with stoning non-Muslim women.
Surprise surprise.
That's more of a racist comment than anything I've said in this thread.
I'm not calling you a racist, I'm just saying that it could be misconstrued that way.
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The tips for single women looking to hitchhike should be "Don't fucking do it!!". Hell, that works for both sexes.
But I guess that is victim blaming...
Indeed.
I do wonder though if some of the racists in this thread recognize that all their pretty examples of "muslim countries" also happen not to be first world countries.
Because surely something like "poverty", "bad education", "non-functioning police" and "corrupt justice system" can't have something to do with crime rates.
Religion must be the sole cause. I mean, surely anyone of use would tramp through a favela in Rio at night. After all, there are no muslims there!
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Bullshit. If you are a single woman traveling in a strange area (whether foreign or domestic to you), you should treat everyone as a rapist. Keep your guard up, because bad shit happens.
Sure, let's all be paranoid. Best not to leave home, you never know if that cashier at the store won't drag you to the back of the shop, or if that bartender won't slip you a mickey.
Yes, bad shit happens. No, it doesn't mean we should just assume every piece of bad shit will happen to us.
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Yes, but would #notallmuslims go down as well as #notallmen?
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See, they're not all bad. I fully recognize that. There's a lot of good ones.
But let's treat them as guilty until proven innocent anyway? "I'm not a racist, but..."
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@boomzilla said:
Does it care that you don't seem to have a point?
Suppose she had wanted to prove that walking around carrying a golf club in a thunderstorm was safe? And then she got struck by lightning. Would you object if after the fact someone talked about the golf club?
Does it care that you're comparing apples to meteorites?
It probably cares more that I've wasted several minutes of my life corresponding with you.
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A business fails because they invested in solar roadways. Is it stupid?
Yes. Yes it is.
Body too similar
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Okay, lesson time.
"Don't hitchhike around muslims/people if woman/human" = advice; NOT victim blaming.
"If you hitchhike around muslims/people as a woman/human, you have only yourself to blame for being killed/raped/annoyed" = victim blaming.
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No, but you think anyone who doesn't take every single step to prevent themselves from being mugged, raped, killed, etc, deserves anything that was coming to them.
Holy shoulder aliens, dude. The worst way to win a debate is to argue against stuff that nobody has said and nobody believes...
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This post is deleted!
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You don't think that a woman hitchhiking alone through a Muslim country is as dumb as juggling with hand grenades?
No, I think anybody who rapes and/or murders a hitchhiker is beneath contempt. I also think that of anybody who would stoop to using a single murder presented without comparative statistics as a political football.
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It probably cares more that I've wasted several minutes of my life corresponding with you.
Good of you to recognize the upper boundary of your intellectual capacity.
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I wouldn't hitchhike alone and I'm an armed male of decent fitness...
Same here. I would not feel safe hitchhiking, even with a .40 cal tucked in to my back. I wouldn't feel safe hitchhiking across Turkey with a fucking RPG.
