Where's the outrage?
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If you think it was ONLY about WYSIWYG you missed the point.
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Now you're just lying.
Fuck you, no i am not.
it's part of the markdown spec.
then the bug is the spec is wrong.
be that as it may, NOT DISCOURSES FAULT THERE.
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Oh come on, I'm not retarded. Although you seem to be pretending to be at the moment.
We've discussed on this forum a million times the giant WTF that is Atwood being on the committee for the Markdown spec and yet not actually implementing the spec in his own damned product. A million times.
You're not as dumb as you're pretending to be. Stop it, that's irritating. Now you can mod warning me all you want.
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The original spec is completely and utterly stupid. Even ATWOOD realized that and co-wrote a less insane one.
But discourse doesn't adhere to it, for reasons unknown.
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Atwood being on the committee for the Markdown spec and yet not actually implementing the spec in his own damned product.
He was on the committe that designed CommonMark, a markdown derivative. That is not Markdown, which is the spec that Discourse uses in their Markdown/BBCode/HTML mashup of a fustercluck parse engine.
The original spec is completely and utterly stupid.
not disagreeing there, nevertheless the sane spec is not the one Discourse uses and thus is not relevant to the discussion at hand.But discourse doesn't adhere to it, for reasons unknown.
apparently because discourse is so terribly designed that they can't change the post parser without breaking everything. I'd belive that
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Oh fuck off. This was all pedantic dickweedery?
I'm done with you. Fuck off.
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Oh fuck off. This was all pedantic dickweedery?
I'm done with you. Fuck off.
I agree.
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Markdown gripe #9485: Lists containing entries on multiple lines must have consistent indentation in front of every line in order to be a proper list. BBCode/HTML have no such issue, as [*] and <li> are delimiters, in many implementations even requiring to be closed.
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This was all pedantic dickweedery
aye, oh master of dickweedery both pedantic and otherwise.
it was indeed, because being technically correct is the best kind of correct.
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there's a working (well, about as much as any other one) WYSIWYG editor as well
It's not WYSIWYG. What you see in the editor is not what you get when you post. The preview is what you (theoretically) will get when you post. What you see in the editor is the raw input.
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Whoever is responsible for Eclipse needs to be beaten with a bag of bowling balls.
Consider, however, the case where Eclipse is an improvement on other editors. I assure you there's places this is true.
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I'm done with you.
I wonder if you being done will last longer than an hour this time.
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Well, of course, but how does that make a difference? Is there a bug that makes the preview not work on some systems or something? If there isn't, then it's still What You See (In The Right Pane That's Right Next To The Editor) Is What You Get.
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it actually works a lot less well**strong text than any other one, doesn't exist on mobile, and the fact that the only text entry mode is markup is inescapable, and fucks you up in a lot of ways. Words disappearing just because they're surrounded in angle brackets, or if someone asks you a question and you answer with a number, the answer's gonna be one, regardless of what you typed. And then a thousand people come in with ‘clever’ ways to get around it, when all you wanted was to not have to deal with markdown in the first place.
Anyway, the bigger issue is that half the people on this forum, even after having to contend with this shit for over a year, if they were asked to design a product with formatted text entry as a feature, would intentionally choose markdown. Fucking goobers. How the hell do professional software engineers not look a language like that and recognize instantly how bad of an idea a markup language where a) the tags are commonly used punctuation marks b) start tags are indistinguishable from end tags is? Markup should be an implementation detail, and markdown is the worst possible implementation of markup.
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Right, those are all valid points, although the fault seems to be divided between Markdown itself and the way Discourse parses it - the thing with words in angle brackets disappearing seems to be a Discourse problem, and same with missing previews on mobile, while markup being common punctuation marks and identical starting and ending tags are design flaws in Markdown.
But anyway, maybe if Blakeyrat led with something like your post, instead of an unrestrained display of incoherent autistic rage... eh, I don't care enough to finish the thought, you probably know what I mean.
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The rant isn't about JUST WYSIWYG editing, I say again even though it will do no good.
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I saw it the first time you told me, don't worry. However, you didn't say what it was about and I'm not psychic, so I still don't know. I also don't want to ask you to elaborate because I have a feeling it would only lead to more incoherent screeching.
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Just give me a latex with better error messages, and something like graphviz that works better with flow charts.
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Deliberately getting on blakeyrat's nerves is totally not a mean thing to do, right?
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The rant is: why do these tools even exist? They're worse than equivalent tools of 30 years ago. (I mean, at least BBCode can be used with a WYSIWYG interface, I'm not even sure that's possible with Markdown.)
It's not just that, but there are web based WYSIWYG text editors out there. The software I work on uses one called CKEditor. But all these forum platforms pride themselves on being opensource, so they won't touch something like CKEditor. It's a solved problem. We should stop treating it like something impossible.
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What You See (In The Right Pane That's Right Next To The Editor) Is What You Get.
There are bugs (known bugs) that cause the preview pane to render one way, but the baked post to render another. Look up WYSMBWYTIYL in the Discopædia thread for an example or two.
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Deliberately getting on blakeyrat's nerves is totally not a mean thing to do, right?
if he can't stand the heat, why is he in the kitchen?
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if he can't stand the heat, why is he in the kitchen?
Bookmarking for future reference.
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But discourse doesn't adhere to it, for reasons unknown.
That's coming in a Future Release™
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That's coming in a Future Release™
they said that, what almost a year ago now and it's still not implemented on meta.d?
yeah. i'll believe it's coming when i see it.
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if he can't stand the heat, why is he in the kitchen?
Ms. Mod Warning is the one saying that? Seriously? Jesus.
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Ms. Mod Warning is the one saying that?
Any mod warnings you may or may not have gotten were not made at my request nor with my knowledge so i'm not sure where you got this who "Ms. Mod Warning business.
Also, I started this interaction in good faith, i only devolved into being petty when you started with the insults.
Had you been nicer so would I.
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I don't buy it.
feel free to review the interaction, I was acting in good faith until Blakey started insulting me.
If you feel I was not acting in good faith during the time i indicated i was I invite you to find and exhibit an example.
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I was talking as a normal person, not a moderator.
To me, it seems like you've been filling this thread with useless noise for the most part.
the door is just over there, you're welcome to use it if the forum offends you.
Oh and this sentence didn't seem too friendly. It was in the second post of the topic ...
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BTW, text editing is not the only place IT is going backwards full-throttle. Look at IDEs for another example. Or, rather, don't look at them-- while in 1997 every somewhat-popular programming language had at least one quality IDE. Now? A lot, possibly the majority, have ZERO quality IDEs.
Oh don't get me started on IDEs. At least Visual Studio used to do everything I wanted, but now VS 2015 is requiring me to drop to the fucking command line because 'Please run "dnu restore" to generate a new lock file'. Why don't you just run the fucking command yourself VS? . What is this shit? Are we in the 70's now ??
/Takes deep breaths
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TinyMCE is another one. Heck, I think VBulletin has used it for well over a decade.
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I did not know that, but, for the 47,034,432th time, that's not what this thread is really about.
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If you have to ask, you ain't never gonna know.
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I'm asking why the WYSIWYG fans don't have a good solid product to back?
The school's new CMS uses CKEditor which has not yet annoyed me to the point of growling.
Unfortunately it's open source, so it won't solve Blakey's problem.
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And what's stopping us from having BOTH? You know like Community Server, circa 2008?
What's stopping anything from being very complicated and having multiple ways of doing the same thing?
It's easier to make things easier and maintaining just a single workflow for each thing.
And so far, every developer I've seen who's a fan of Markdown has also been a fan of open source, a.k.a. we never bother doing usability studies on anything because fuck users.
Also because usability studies are outside of their area of expertise, and would involve investing the money they don't have. But sure, why focus on the boring economics and reality, where there's our favorite dead horse to flog.
To whom?
Have you ever met someone who was plopped in front of a Microsoft Word window (or Outlook, or anything that uses its UI) and couldn't figure out how to underline a word?
No, but I've seen many who then cry in frustration when invisible style and paragraph marks get jumbled up, they change the columns in their template and then don't know how to fix it, they want to put an image surrounded by text and things slide all over the place, they create a table and can then never change it, etc.
It makes it hard to add any sort of visual cue or indicator about the thing you're doing.
What does that even mean?
It means WYSIWYG will show you the finished product, but that then limits it in what else it can show you. Eg. if you're editing tables with margin 0, it can't make those margins 10px wide so you can easily grip them with your pointer. Because that would push other content around and break the "what you see" paradigm.
See? It's a tradeoff, as many other things.
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Okay, Propose a project, with a sensible goal that will improve matters in this regard, and provide a mechanism that I can contribute to it, and i'll contribute towards the success of such a project.
You're obviously passionat here, that's good. Now you just need to focus that passion towards crating a solution.
That would involve him actually doing something, instead of getting drunk on expensive alcohol purchased with his fat IT industry paycheck, then wrapping himself in his fake internet persona and going to forums to rant about how IT industry is awful.
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You know, I almost mentioned CKEditor; I've used it myself, it seemed solid. But that's twice now it's come up. Maybe it needs more trumpeting?
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Also because usability studies are outside of their area of expertise
Really? I learned how to do them at university, long before I even thought about entering QA. Why are we so happy to be so ill-taught?
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Unfortunately it's open source, so it won't solve Blakey's problem.
It doesn't have to be.
WYSIWYG HTML Editor with Collaborative Rich Text Editing
Rock-solid, Free WYSIWYG Editor with Collaborative Editing, 200+ features, Full Documentation and Support. Trusted by 20k+ companies.
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that's twice now it's come up. Maybe it needs more trumpeting?
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I prefer this to the CKEditor
It is open-source, a piece of piss to embed in a website.
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How do I use that to do
this?
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Really? I learned how to do them at university, long before I even thought about entering QA. Why are we so happy to be so ill-taught?
Doing that kind of thing is a completely different skillset and mindset than doing technical side of app development. I'm sure some people can learn it all, but most will probably specialize in a narrower area.
So when we are talking about the realm of one man projects, you'll get a certain set of skills, but not all that a large company would put together. And the reality is that if these skills don't include programming of the "disgusting nerdy autistic" mindset, as you and blakey would put it, nothing gets made.
I mean, it's not like a usability expert can turn their work into a usable product for others on their own. They need a team. They need a budget. They need a company, basically.
And once we go there, we are not talking open source bedroom projects anymore.
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@aliceif said:
Deliberately getting on blakeyrat's nerves is totally not a mean thing to do, right?
if he can't stand the heat, why is he in the kitchen?
More to the point: if he can't stand the heat, why does he keep setting fire to the kitchen?
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I'm sure some people can learn it all, but most will probably specialize in a narrower area.
How do you know? Maybe there's a huge amount of overlap that nobody realizes because it's shit on as being the useless discipline of "making shit pretty" by devs?
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How do you know? Maybe there's a huge amount of overlap that nobody realizes because it's shit on as being the useless discipline of "making shit pretty" by devs?
Maybe there is. But the bottom line is, for whatever reason, devs aren't interested in learning about these soft sciences as much as learning more about technology. So unless you have some way to make that shit interesting or obviously useful or appealing in some way, status quo will remain.
Daring Fireball: Markdown Syntax Documentation
Ace - The High Performance Code Editor for the Web
