šŸ”„ Next thing coming down the pike


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Menstrual leave:

    That's right, leave for menstruation. Fuckery, or not?


  • Dupa

    Should they be allowed to leave whom? Partners? I smell a lot of "WE WERE ON A BREAK" bullshit approaching.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    That's right, leave for menstruation. Fuckery, or not?

    I can see where that's heading:

    :man: You only work 3 weeks of every four; you only get paid 3/4 of someone who doesn't take that leave.
    :woman: Wage gap!!!!1!!1!!1!


  • mod

    Before I mute, remember that some women get cramps so bad they can't stand. I can work just fine on my period, but I know women who can't.


  • Dupa

    My girlfriend gets whole-day migraines on the 1st day, sometimes also 2nd. So no, she's unable to work during those days.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Yamikuronue said:

    Before I mute

    In fairness, I did pre-emptively add the :fire: disclaimer. I knew where this was headed.

    Also in fairness, I was shown this by a woman who was wholeheartedly in disagreement with any such proposition.

    @Yamikuronue said:

    remember that some women get cramps so bad they can't stand. I can work just fine on my period, but I know women who can't.

    That is not an employer's problem.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Polygeekery said:

    That is not an employer's problem.

    I'd say it's a disability and should be treated as such. So yes and no.


  • ā™æ

    @Polygeekery said:

    That's not an employer's problem.

    Bah. That sounds like Jew talk.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @asdf said:

    I'd say it's a disability and should be treated as such. So yes and no.

    Disabilities (at least in the US) are covered by "reasonable accomodations". I can talk to the wife (and I will, because she loves hearing about such things), but I sincerely doubt that taking a few paid days off every month would be considered a "reasonable accomodation".

    Let's get this straight, we are talking about people getting ~7% of their days off, paid. That is not reasonable.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @boomzilla said:

    Bah. That sounds like Jew talk.

    At least you got the capitalization right this time, you fucking bigot.


  • ā™æ

    I am a case sensitive bigot, after all.

    I agree, though, that extra paid days of sounds like a lot more than a reasonable accommodation.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Polygeekery said:

    I can talk to the wife (and I will, because she loves hearing about such things), but I sincerely doubt that taking a few paid days off every month would be considered a "reasonable accomodation".

    I think it's possible to demand something like that here if you can prove that there's an actual medical reason, although I'm not entirely sure whether the employer just has to allow the employee to take those days off or whether they actually have to be paid.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    . That sounds like Jew talk.

    Y'oughtta feel ashamed for that.

    Because it was pretty weak.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    Fuckery, or not?

    If it's a problem let them use FMLA.



  • Why do you care? You don't employ women in the first place. </tr>

    Anyway, no surprise that legally mandated menstrual leave was invented in japan. Over here, people who have been given time off by a doctor don't have to work. Simple as that.



  • @kt_ said:

    whole-day migraines

    @Yamikuronue said:

    some women get cramps so bad they can't stand

    All sounds a bit of a non problem to me (not the physical problem ... even a CIS male scumbag understands) ... I mean those are obviously covered by sick leave. So what's the problem? Don't wanting to take sick days off? A structural monthly solution?
    It all sounds a bit like people looking for a problem and as a discrimination against women past menopause, women with hormonal anti-pregnancy solutions who hardly have a cycle, pregnant woman and woman with medical conditions who don't have cycles any more.


  • Dupa

    @Luhmann said:

    I mean those are obviously covered by sick leave. So what's the problem?

    I wasn't talking about the idea, just related to @Yamikuronue's story. I'm not even sure if my girl would support the idea, I think she'd find it condescending.

    I can't speak for Yami, though her post didn't strike me as a voice of full support and rather "you guys can't even imagine how fucking painful and hard it can be but you're gonna talk about it and appear all-knowing nevertheless so here's a story and fuck you" type of message.



  • It wasn't really directed at any of you.

    @kt_ said:

    I think she'd find it condescending.

    Because to a lot of women it is condescending.


  • ā™æ

    @FrostCat said:

    Because it was pretty weak.

    It's part of a longer series, not meant to stand on it's own.


  • ā™æ

    @kt_ said:

    I can't speak for Yami, though her post didn't strike me as a voice of full support and rather "you guys can't even imagine how fucking painful and hard it can be but you're gonna talk about it and appear all-knowing nevertheless so here's a story and fuck you" type of message.

    I know that my wife had had basically crippling periods at various points in the past. Its certainly am issue for some women. She controlled hers in part by taking birth control, which made then less intense, mostly.

    But the fact remains that a worker who is capable of working fewer (normal, not crazy @weng overtime) hours is going to tend to be less productive than someone not so burdened.

    Or they could just do what the rest of us do when we're hung over and get more done when not hung over and pretend to work on the hangover days.


  • area_deu

    This. If you're too sick to work (for whatever reason), take sick leave. I don't see why we need a big debate about it.
    What's next? Mandatory days off for people with migraine? All men get paid leave on the day after football championship finals?



  • @ChrisH said:

    men get paid leave on the day after football

    Supporter numbers will go through the roof



  • Isn't this discriminatory against transwomen? What about transmen? I think we all know what that means. @Fox : guide us in this moment of skullfuckery!


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @ChrisH said:

    What's next? Mandatory days off for people with migraine?

    Someone attempted it at my wife's place of employment.

    It was California, so they basically got it.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ChrisH said:

    This. If you're too sick to work (for whatever reason), take sick leave. I don't see why we need a big debate about it.

    The issue is clearly going to be how much time. If you need more than 2-3 days a month, you're probably not going to have enough paid vacation, in the US, and if you use it up all for this you can't take regular vacations.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Fuckery, or not?

    @Yamikuronue said:

    remember that some women get cramps so bad they can't stand.

    @Polygeekery said:

    That is not an employer's problem.

    I have sciatica.

    There are days I'm pushing myself off of my car seat on the drive home praying I don't get in a wreck.

    I don't get these days off for free on top of my vacation. And the flare ups happen 2 to 3 times a year and I can struggle at work for 1 - 2 weeks.

    Even I wouldn't expect an employer to help me financially with that problem. Much less increasing that to 4 times a year.

    Sure, they can take off for medical leave, but they don't get paid.

    @kt_ said:

    I think she'd find it condescending.

    If someone told me I got 4 weeks off a year for my health problem, I'd find it insulting too. I work just as hard as anyone else. And my team works hard too. I can't leave them hanging like that.

    Fortunately my job works with me, I work from home or some other solution.

    Let the women work weekends to make up the time, that's what I do.



  • @xaade said:

    take off for medical leave, but they don't get paid.

    Medical leave is payed around here, that is why the employer asks for a doctor's attestation about your inability.
    The employer can even send over or have you visit a different doctor to counter your claim.



  • @FrostCat said:

    If you need more than 2-3 days a month, you're probably not going to have enough paid vacation, in the US,

    If you have a job that counts sick days against your PTO, you have a shitty job. One that, incidentally, is encouraging contagious people to come in and infect you.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you have a job that counts sick days against your PTO

    I wasn't bothering to make the distinction. But if you need 36 days off (that's 3 days per month for 12 months) you're likely to exhaust ALL of your PTO of whatever kind.

    But I forgot I'm talking to Drax, so my apologies for not catering to your feigned disability.



  • ?

    No, I'm saying sick days aren't taken from your PTO bank. In normal workplaces. Last time I had a job that shitty, it was cashier in a retail warehouse store.

    ... right? Am I nuts here?

    So while you might get yelled at by your manager or HR for taking off 36 sick days in a year, it wouldn't mean you have "no PTO left". Unless you have a shitty job.

    But hey, throw more insults my way if you want. Why not.


  • ā™æ

    @blakeyrat said:

    If you have a job that counts sick days against your PTO, you have a shitty job. One that, incidentally, is encouraging contagious people to come in and infect you.

    That's funny, because I'd say the opposite: if they make you lie to use all of your PTO, you have a shitty job.



  • What are you talking about?


  • ā™æ

    Sick time vs vacation time. Wasn't that what you were talking about?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    So while you might get yelled at by your manager or HR for taking off 36 sick days in a year, it wouldn't mean you have "no PTO left". Unless you have a shitty job.

    My company provides three banks, sick, floaters, and PTO. However they don't actually force you to use them for anything in particular--I usually use my sick days first for raisins. That is to say, there is the illusion of three buckets, but there really is only one, effectively.

    Some places these days make that explicit and just say "you have 30 days (or whatever)" you can use for anything you want, sick or otherwise.

    @blakeyrat said:

    "no PTO left".

    And thus, in the context in which I was speaking "PTO" meant "any days you take off from work and still get paid".


  • area_deu

    The concept of having a fixed number of sick days that you "can" take has always amazed me. As if illness was something you could schedule around your year.

    We've been over this before, but here in Germany, sick is sick (depending on your company you will need a doctor's note if you're sick for more than two consecutive days) and vacation is vacation.
    If you get sick during your vacation, you get those vacation days back.

    Which is the only system that makes sense to me. Vacation is meant for recuperation. If you use that up because you're out of sick leave, where does that leave you?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    It's similar here in the Czech Republic - if I get sick and get a doctor's note, I'm entitled to a (kinda...) paid sick leave. The evil corporation I work for still offers a couple sick days, though; those mean that I can just not come in, without having to spend a few hours at the doctor's office, wasting everyone's time just so I can get a stupid piece of paper.

    I mean, my boss doesn't care anyway, he's fine with me just working from home for a week if I need it which almost always solves the problem just as well as a sick day, but these officially provided sick days are a nice backup in case I get a new boss who turns out to be an asshole.


  • ā™æ

    We tend to have other things called stuff like short / long term disability for things that go beyond normal allowances. Some are private insurance based and others come from the government (YMMV, void where prohibited).



  • Indeed. If someone has such a recurring problem they get a doctor's notice and maybe even some kind of disability compensation.

    Yes, that puts a burden on the employer. It's called civilization, people. Deal with it.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ChrisH said:

    If you use that up because you're out of sick leave, where does that leave you?

    I'm explaining it, not justifying it.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    No, I'm saying sick days aren't taken from your PTO bank. In normal workplaces. Last time I had a job that shitty, it was cashier in a retail warehouse store.

    To-ma-toes To-mat-oes

    If you have to get a doctor's excuse for a sick day, that sucks.

    If you have to use vacation days for sickness, that sucks.

    In reality, it doesn't really matter. You have X days, putting them in buckets is just playing make believe. The company has X days they're willing to spend on you where you don't work. How they regulate those days is their prerogative.

    I prefer everything in one bucket so I don't have to physically go to the doctor when I have a sickness that will alleviate itself.



  • @Rhywden said:

    Indeed. If someone has such a recurring problem they get a doctor's notice and maybe even some kind of disability compensation.

    Or you could, oh I don't know, start your own business and make your own working rules and stop expecting the government to force businesses to cater to your needs...

    Because no one has a right to work.

    But if you live in those liberal countries where it is near impossible to start a business because liberal values are a lie and they are just upholding monopolies with big lobbies...

    Then you really are stuck being an employee.

    I keep telling people that government is the biggest monopoly of them all... but for some reason government is seen as some external entity, like it's an observer of the environment, and not really a part of it.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Yamikuronue said:

    Before I mute

    Do you have anyone muted who we play Mafia with?

    This would put a very different complexion on the game.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    I am a case sensitive bigot


    Filed under: FTFY

  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    "Next thing..."?

    This has been a thing for some time.

    2015 "Periods are harming our career prospects. Something ain't working"

    2014 "Forget maternity leave - women should get PAID menstrual leave every month (and men will just have to lump it), says leading doctor"

    2013 "DeAnna Demands Paid Menstrual Leave!"


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    So I finally remembered to ask my wife (the HR expert) about this last night. It went something like this:

    "I read an article this week that I wanted your professional HR opinion about. It seems there is a movement to give women 'menstrual leave'."

    "Like...PTO to be used for periods?"

    "Essentially."

    "-raucous laughter- Sign me the hell up! How many days are we talking about here?"

    "2-3 days per month is the current talking point."

    "OK, in all seriousness, this is a shitty idea. For women who have debilitating periods, there are already ways to deal with that. They can medicate, they can do different jobs or work from home during those time periods, etc. This is already a solved problem for the women that actually need it as long as they conform with the ADA. If you give it to every woman, you are asking for abuse.

    Most obvious, for women like myself that are able to work through our periods, you are going to see a lot of women working through their periods and then taking the menstrual leave on Thursday so that they get a 4-day weekend once a month. That is not reasonable accommodation. That is inviting fraud."

    "That is kind of what I thought, but I am a horrible misogynist."

    "I work in HR, when things like this come up I first think of just how people will abuse it instead of use it."

    So, in the US at least, women who have horrible periods already have a way to get that accommodated through their place of employment. She also went on to elaborate that as a reasonable feminist (which is how I would also describe her) she finds the proposal condescending and detrimental to women overall. Another addition she had was that it would hurt female employment, if only subconsciously. For employers, if you are given the choice between two equally qualified applicants, but one of them you know just by looking at them will be off 24-36 days per year that you have to pay them for and receive no work for...you will choose the other one and such discrimination would be almost impossible to prove.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    such discrimination would be almost impossible to prove

    ... especially if the potential employer finds something else - anything else - during the interviewing process to justify not hiring the female candidate, then uses that as the official no-hire reason. Companies generally do this already when the interviewee's in a protected class and they don't want to hire him/her/it.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @lolwhat said:

    ... especially if the potential employer finds something else - anything else - during the interviewing process to justify not hiring the female candidate, then uses that as the official no-hire reason. Companies generally do this already when the interviewee's in a protected class and they don't want to hire him/her/it.

    Yeah, and the applicant or employee is the one who bears the burden of proof. You cannot sue an employer and just say that you were fired because you are (black, female, gay, etc). You need proof.

    Now, that is not to say that they will not settle for you. My wife's employer does it all the fucking time. It is sad, but if you know the lawsuit will cost you $50K, and you know you will win but still have the legal expenses, you can make them an offer of $20K to FOAD to save some money (that you should not have to pay anyway).



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Let's get this straight, we are talking about people getting ~7% of their days off, paid. That is not reasonable.

    I think I could be OK with that, given the choice.



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