Is My Game In LyLo?


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Do not discuss actual, incomplete games here

    Let's hash out a clear definition. MafiaScum defines LyLo very straightforwardly:

    Lynch-or-Lose, or LyLo, is a game state wherein the Town must lynch scum during the present Day phase or they will lose the game (often by being endgamed by scum). It is also called Lynch-right-or-lose.

    It is generally easy to tell when a game is in LyLo because there will only be one more Town player alive than the number of scum. For instance, if there are five players alive and two of them are scum (thus three of them are Town), the game is in LyLo. This can be adjusted for the presence of multiple killing groups, but the premise remains the same.

    MyLo, however, was an imported term for them, coming from [EpicMafia][1]:

    Mislynch and Lose, also abbreviated as MILO and MYLO is a situation where a mislynch would mean a loss for the town. In this situation, a no lynch usually would be optimal.

    The distinction between them seems to be the result of a no-lynch: if no-lynching would lose the game, it's LyLo, but if not, it's MyLo.

    However, we like power roles around here. Power roles fuck everything up. So let's work through some hypotheticals and past examples as guidance to future GMs.
    [1]: http://epicmafia.wikia.com/wiki/Mislynch_and_Lose


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    I should add, EpicMafia explicitly states that neither LyLo nor MyLo necessarily results in the termination of play after a mislynch, as power roles can allow the night phase to continue: http://epicmafia.wikia.com/wiki/LYLO


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said:

    However, we like power roles around here. Power roles fuck everything up. So let's work through some hypotheticals and past examples as guidance to future GMs.

    Why don't we start with Mafia IV?

    On Day 3, the population was split as follows (keep in mind that the police were the scum faction and the mafia were the town):

    1 traitor - 4 police - 7 mafia

    Since the traitor was police aligned, this was a MyLo situation by basic numbers. However, there was also a bit of a role complication:

    • If the police targeted the traitor at night, the traitor would be converted to a full police player, resulting in a lost night for the police.
    • The mafia had a Cowardly Reporter, who could still commute three times.
    • The mafia had a PGO with 2 shots remaining.
    • One of the police was 2-shot Deathproof, meaning that he required three attempts to successfully lynch.

    There was also a police Roleblocker/Strongman and a mafia Cop, but neither role really had any potential to influence the outcome of kill actions.

    The police Deathproof was the major complicator. Could the mafia still beat the police with the double protected police player still in play? The answer was yes, as long as some combination of Cowardly Reporter, PGO, and Traitor were still in play. I would provide a decision tree outlining the possible outcomes, but there are over 30 possible scenarios going into day 4, and that's just considering decisions based on Traitor, Cowardly Reporter, PGO, Deathproof, and then lumping the remaining Mafia together and the remaining Police together. Needless to say, there is one scenario where the Deathproof police officer could be unprotected by the start of Day 4 with a 1:4:6 ratio, and multiple outcomes going into Night 4 with the Deathproof being unprotected with ratios like 4:6 and 1:3:6.

    Even had the Deathproof Police been Vanilla, the Cowardly reporter would still have complicated the scenario, as Police targeting the Cowardly Reporter after a mislynch would have an uncertain outcome, depending on what the Cowardly Reporter decided to do that night.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @abarker said:

    The mafia had a Cowardly Reporter, who could still commute three times.

    No they didn't. They fucking lynched her.

    ETA: Nevermind, you're talking about at dawn, not at dusk.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @abarker said:

    1 traitor - 4 police - 7 mafia

    So let's start with the basic numbers: we have 5 scum and 7 town (using non-flavored roles).

    If town mislynches, they have 5-6, and if scum plays well, it's 5-5 and they win. If town no-lynches, it's only 5-6 at dawn. So yes, MyLo.

    For the Deathproof, I would count that as a no-lynch: they wasted their day, and did not lynch. So it's still MyLo.

    The kill, however, was not assured. If we consider a simpler situation: a town deathproof, 3 vanilla town, 3 vanilla scum, we have the same issue: does the scum's ability to "miskill" affect LyLo/MyLo status here?


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Obviously, given the "skill" of WTDWTF townies, all games are in GoLoSoLa from day 1 onward. :trolleybus:

    To me, I think it would make the most sense to announce MyLo/LyLo based strictly on the assumption that the scum faction(s) will successfully avoid roleblocking/bulletproof/PGO. Because that's kind of the worst case scenario for town. And then just have an understanding / clearly stated rule that MyLo is the town MAY lose overnight if they mislynch.

    After all, we're all RFC 2119 compliant here, right? :D



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    If we consider a simpler situation: a town deathproof, 3 vanilla town, 3 vanilla scum, we have the same issue: does the scum's ability to "miskill" affect LyLo/MyLo status here?

    Several options:

    • treat everyone as vanilla for LyLo/MyLo calculations. Town gains information about number of scum, but can lose unexpectedly. Scum risks the game not ending even after a lynch/mislynch. Existence of power roles doesn't leak to the players.
    • go with the outcome most beneficial for town (no kill/scum getting killed by a PGO or whatnot). Effectively leaks the existence of power roles for scum, since they know how many of them there are. Lynch/mislynch is always a loss. Big chances the town will lose with no warning.
    • go with the outcome most beneficial for scum (kill, PGO kills a townie if possible, all protection misses). Town always knows when they can lose. Scum generally as aware of the risk that the game won't end as with any other day
    • LyLo only when a wrong lynch/no lynch immediately ends the game, MyLo anytime a mislynch could result in a loss. Somewhat balances all the problems - MyLo means "risk of loss", LyLo means "must lynch scum to win".

    And while we're discussing that, we need to get the win-con straight at that:

    • does the scum win when it's equal teams into night, but one of the townies is a killing role?
    • does the scum win when it's equal teams into the day, but one of the townies is a doublevoter?
    • does the scum win when town has one player advantage and the total is odd, but one of the scum is loved (which effectively makes them unlynchable)?
    • does the scum win when town has one player advantage and the total is odd, but one of the townies is hated (which means scum can already lynch them by themselves)?

  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    does the scum win when it's equal teams into night, but one of the townies is a killing role?

    does the scum win when it's equal teams into night, or only at dawn?



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    does the scum win when it's equal teams into night, or only at dawn?

    Usually equal teams into night just means either no change, or one less townie at the next dawn, so that's not a very important distinction. Unless the town has a killing role like PGO or vigilante, in which case they can potentially force a draw.

    Equal teams mean half-plus-one to lynch, so neither side can carry the lynch out - for the town it usually means they have no means of getting rid of scum.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    I think to determine when the Scum win, we have to look at why they usually win at even teams: because the rest of the game is inevitable.

    Take the simple case of an even split of 3 scum 3 townie, all vanilla.
    At 3-3d, the town can't lynch a scum (need 4), so they either no-lynch (leaving 3-3n) or lynch town (3-2n)
    At 3-3n, scum kill town, it becomes 3-2d
    At 3-2n, scum kill town, it becomes 3-1d

    At 3-2d scum force lynch a townie and move to 3-1n.
    At 3-1n, scum kill the last townie and win.

    At 3-1d, scum force a lynch of the last townie and win.

    Since there is a 0% chance of town win, the scum win early.

    In this situation, a 3-4 town advantage is a clear LyLo: one bad move and you've lost. Therefore, it shouldn't be LyLo unless you're one bad play away from losing the game entirely.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Now, let's consider a single power role for Town, either a roleblocker, a rolestopper, or a doctor. Someone that can prevent the night kill.

    In the 3-3d case, is it game over or LyLo?

    Let's take the case of a no-lynch, so it's 3-3n with one roleblocker. We have three outcomes:

    • The kill is blocked, leading to 3-3d over again
    • The kill is not blocked, and a vanilla town is killed, leading to 3-2d with the roleblocker alive
    • The kill is not blocked, and the roleblocker himself is killed. This is trivially a scum win condition as the before post indicates.

    In the case of a 3-2d, scum lynch a town. This leads to one of two conditions:

    • They lynch the roleblocker. Scum win.
    • They do not lynch the roleblocker. Either they kill him that night, or there is no kill. If there is no kill, they lynch him the next day. Scum win.

    In the case of 3-3d, therefore, all paths lead to scum win. So even with a roleblocker, this is a scum victory condition.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    3-4 town advantage all-vanilla is LyLo, because mislynching and no-lynching both lead to 3-3 outcomes (3-3d and 3-3n), which are win conditions for Town.

    So what of 3-4 town advantage with a roleblocker? If they lynch town, it becomes 3-3n, which is enumerated above as a scum win.

    If they lynch scum, it becomes 2-4n, which has the following outcomes:

    • Scum kills a vanilla townie, making it 2-3d with a roleblocker
    • Scum kills the roleblocker, making it 2-3d with no roleblocker
    • Scum is blocked, making it 2-4d with a roleblocker

    2-3d with roleblocker leads to the following outcomes:

    • Town lynches scum, leading to 1-3n with roleblocker
    • Town mislynches, leading to 2-2n with roleblocker, and a scum win as proven above
    • Town mislynches the roleblocker, leading to 2-2n with all vanilla, and a scum win as proven above
    • Town no-lynches, leading to 2-3n with roleblocker

    This, then, is MyLo: 2-3d with a roleblocker.

    2-3d without roleblocker has similar outcomes:

    • Town lynches scum, leading to 1-3n all vanilla
    • Town mislynches, leading to 2-2n all vanilla, and a scum win as proven above
    • Town no-lynches, leading to 2-3n all vanilla

    2-4d with roleblocker has similar outcomes as well:

    • Town lynches scum, leading to 1-4n with roleblocker (and a very likely town win)
    • Town mislynches, leading to 2-3n with roleblocker
    • Town mislynches the roleblocker, leading to 2-3n with all vanilla
    • Town no-lynches, leading to 2-4n with roleblocker

    So it's night.

    2-4n vanilla, scum kills a townie leading to 2-3d vanilla. This situation is trivially LyLo.

    2-3n vanilla, scum kills a townie leading to 2-2d and scum win.

    1-3 vanilla, scum kills a townie, leading to 1-2d, which is trivially LyLo.

    With a roleblocker, 2-4n is described above; we've just gone in a loop.

    2-3n has the following outcomes:

    • Scum kills a vanilla townie, making it 2-2d with a roleblocker, scum wins as shown above
    • Scum kills the roleblocker, making it 2-2d with no roleblocker, scum wins as shown above
    • Scum is blocked, making it 2-3d with a roleblocker, as enumerated above

    1-3n has the following outcomes:

    • Scum kills a vanilla townie, making it 1-2d with a roleblocker and LyLo
    • Scum kills the roleblocker, making it 1-2d with no roleblocker and LyLo
    • Scum is blocked, making it 1-3d with a roleblocker.

    Hang on, I've lost track of my point. Clearly, however, there is reduction to MyLo and LyLo still possible from the starting case, 3-4d with roleblocker. So in my view, this is not MyLo. Town can still win in the conditions that end in LyLo by lynching correctly, even if they mislynch.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    This post is deleted!

  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Ah, right, there was my point: 3-4d with roleblocker on a no-lynch becomes 3-4n with roleblocker. Outcomes:

    • Scum kills town, leading to 3-3d with roleblocker and scum win as shown above
    • Scum kills roleblocker, leading to 3-3d vanilla and scum win as shown above
    • Scum is blocked, leading to 3-4d with roleblocker again.

    If the third option didn't exist, it would be LyLo; lynching correctly leads to more gameplay, but lynching incorrectly or not lynching leads to a loss. But the third option exists. Is this also MyLo? That's the crux of the opinion portion of the thread


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said:

    Ah, right, there was my point: 3-4d with roleblocker on a no-lynch becomes 3-4n with roleblocker. Outcomes:- Scum kills town, leading to 3-3d with roleblocker and scum win as shown above- Scum kills roleblocker, leading to 3-3d vanilla and scum win as shown above- Scum is blocked, leading to 3-4d with roleblocker again.

    If the third option didn't exist, it would be LyLo; lynching correctly leads to more gameplay, but lynching incorrectly or not lynching leads to a loss. But the third option exists. Is this also MyLo? That's the crux of the opinion portion of the thread

    I think EpicMafia has the right solution: define MyLo and Lylo, with the condition that the game may continue on into the following night regardless of the voting outcome because of role outcomes. Then MyLo/LyLo calculations would probably best be done by assuming that everyone is vanilla. In that case, declaring MyLo and LyLo for games like II and IV would be trivial. Things only get more complicated when considering additional alignments/factions, such as in games I (arsonist) and III (two mafias).

    Any other evaluation would mean that the GM would need to evaluate the possibilities at the beginning of every day cycle to determine whether the game has entered MyLo/LyLo. Either that, or we'd end up playing increasingly simple games so that the MyLo/LyLo calculations would be easy.

    Under this definition, the scenario you described (3-4d) would be LyLo, and the players would understand that there was a possibility of playing a night phase, and the declaration of LyLo doesn't leak any information about roles still in play.

    I could extend the argument into multi-alignment areas, but let's get the simple town v. 1-mafia setup settled first. ;)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @abarker said:

    One of the police was 2-shot Deathproof, meaning that he required three attempts to successfully lynch.

    Hey, so that just made me wonder--what happened if they had voted to lynch me during the day? My role wouldn't have protected me, right?


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Deathpoof covers all sources, usually, as opposed to LynchProof and Bulletproof, which are day and night immune respectively.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Yamikuronue said:

    Deathpoof covers all sources, usually, as opposed to LynchProof and Bulletproof, which are day and night immune respectively.

    Dang. Would've been interesting to see how that played out.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    It did, see Mafia II (in space)


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Though the "ruling" as explained in Club Ded was that Bulletproof covered the Family lynches last game, since said lynches were accomplished by mass gunfire.

    Edit: See my response to @abarker's response, I was confused.


  • mod

    The method of the lynches is just flavor. They could just as easily have been put out on the lunar surface.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @abarker said:

    The method of the lynches is just flavor.

    Sure, but it was a reasonable in-game explanation for full deathproof. Stop making yourself look bad while you're ahead. :smile:


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Yeah, but also, don't do that, because if the setup was balanced for being only immune to nightkills and now they're immune to all kills...

    There's a GM tip: resist the urge to meddle or make things make sense.


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said:

    Yeah, but also, don't do that, because if the setup was balanced for being only immune to nightkills and now they're immune to all kills...

    There's a GM tip: resist the urge to meddle or make things make sense.

    Yeah, I thought my setup was balanced, and then day 2 happened … :persevere:


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Ah, I remembered from https://what.thedailywtf.com/t/mafia-iv-reverse-mafia-club-ded-and-post-game-discussion/54696/586 that you had said body armor would work for both night and day kill since they both involved bullets, and got confused into thinking it was a "Bulletproof" role and not a "Deathproof" role.

    Serves me right for shooting my typing fingers off without checking the setup document.



  • Well, it was balanced without the lovers...


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    See? Meddling ;)

    We should definitely try with all club ded punishments announced once. If the lovers had been announced, that would have changed the power differently than if it hadn't been. And the flavor ones should probably be.



  • It was a good punishment, just that it fell into a bad target



  • @abarker said:

    Yeah, I thought my setup was balanced, and then day 2 happened … :persevere:

    The setup was cool, and I think it was balanced, problem is we WTFers are mad as hatters (pun intended).


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.