Game Categories


  • mod

    Note: All of this applies to Mafia 5 and beyond.

    Terminology

    The following are terms that may be used to describe a game. Discussion of terminology and the finer points of categories is below; I will wikify this post so we can keep the definitions up to date.

    Reveal
    Each game may have a different reveal level, indicating how much information is released about a player upon their death. The different reveal levels are as follows:

    • Full Reveal: All information that a player had about their role is included in their death flip.
    • Limited Reveal: Some of the information that a player had about their role is included in their death flip.
    • No Reveal: No information is disclosed about a player at the time of their death.

    Each of these levels may be further influenced by the presence of various roles within the game, such as Janitors and Coroners.

    Closed Setup vs Open Setup
    A closed setup is one in which the domain of roles handed out is not revealed. An open setup is one in which the domain of roles is revealed, but not who has what role. A partially-open setup is one in which a domain of roles smaller than the list of all possible roles is given to the players, but only a subset of those roles are present in the game. So far, most games are a Closed setup.

    Night Start vs Day Start
    Most games played here are Day Start, meaning that the first phase played is the Day phase for day 1. Some games may be Night Start, in which the first phase played is the Night phase for day 0, allowing night actions to be used before discussion begins.

    Daytalk
    Typically in our games, factions have had "Daytalk", which means they can communicate at any point. Without this, scum threads are closed during the day and only allow posting at night.

    Multiball
    A "multiball" game is one in which there are multiple scum factions. Bushido Mafia was our first example of this category. In a closed setup, it is not usually known that the game is Multiball at the start of the game.

    Categories of Game

    Vanilla

    The only roles allowed are:

    • Townie
    • Vanilla Mafia

    Mafia must be given a talk thread, and must contain only a night kill ability and no other abilities. This must be a full reveal game.

    Normal

    The following roles are outlawed:

    • Cult
    • Jester
    • Any role that lies to players, such as a Death Miller
    • Any role where the role card does not accurately describe the ability

    This must be a full reveal game

    Bastard vs Non-Bastard

    The following rules apply to the setup of game not marked 'Bastard'. If you intend to break one or more of these rules, mark your game as 'Bastard'; if you're a player in a non-bastard game, you may take these as a given.

    • No Jester role
    • No Cult or cult-like factions*
    • No death-millers
    • The player is given all information about their role; there are no hidden powers, or powers that are not explained to any player at the start of the game.
    • Any information revealed from the flip will be true and accurate. It may not be complete, according to the Reveal level, but it will not be a blatant lie.
    • The moderator will never give out false information. All info from the mod can be taken as gospel truth.
    • All rules are posted publicly
    • Cult-like is defined as any faction that changes player alignments.

    See also Bastard Mod

    Type A Bastard (Mini-Bastard, Bitch, or Bastard-Lite)

    All roles are allowed. This must be a full reveal game.

    Type B Bastard (or "Bastard")

    All roles are allowed. This may be partial or no-reveal. The mod may lie to you at any time. The rules may or may not be fully disclosed. Enter at your own peril. The only thing they cannot be lying to you about is disclosing that you're in Bastard territory before signups, because that's not a game everyone wants to play.


  • mod

    As for discussion: Should we consider Cult to be Bastard here? Some places do, some places don't.



  • Another thing to consider is whether subfactions have Daytalk.


  • mod

    added


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Full vs partial vs no reveal.


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said:

    The flip will reveal all information the player had about their role; there are no secrets in death

    This would seem to preclude the use of Janitors and (correspondingly) Coroners. Do we want to declare those roles bastard, or should they be permitted in non-bastard games?


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said:

    The flip will reveal all information the player had about their role; there are no secrets in death

    This would seem to preclude the use of Janitors and (correspondingly) Coroners. Do we want to declare those role bastard, or should they be permitted in non-bastard games?


  • mod

    I suppose there's a category I missed: Limited Reveal or No Reveal games are not technically Bastard, but my definition excludes them.


  • mod

    Maybe the reveal level should be a different section from Bastard vs Non-Bastard. Something like:


    Reveal
    Each game may have a different reveal level, indicating how much information is released about a player upon their death. The different reveal levels are as follows:

    • Full Reveal All information that a player had about their role is included in their death flip.
    • Limited Reveal Some of the information that a player had about their role is included in their death flip.
    • No Reveal No information is disclosed about a player at the time of their death.

    Each of these levels may be further influenced by the presence of various roles within the game, such as Janitors and Coroners. In order to be considered a non-bastard game, however, all reveals must be guaranteed to be accurate.


  • mod

    I was also thinking that we should probably mention role-madness. Playing in Mafia II, role-madness felt (to me) very bastardy when you don't know that you are playing a role madness game.


  • mod

    Yoinked. Plus a revision of bastardy


  • mod

    Eh. What's the cutoff for role madness?


  • mod

    From wiki.mafiascum.net:

    Role Madness refers to a type of game where most or all of the players have power roles; that is, there are few to no true Vanilla Townies.

    Not very clear on any specific cutoff. My gut says at least 75% roles.

    In any case, I think that if the mod doesn't disclose that it is role madness, then they are verging on a bastard game.


  • mod

    I disagree. I feel like the point of a closed setup is anything could happen :)


  • mod

    I said "verging"!


  • mod

    The thing about role madness is, it tends to be really fun to play, but burn up and die rapidly because so many night actions happen.



  • Also, figuring out the izzion-party interactions between the roles can get painful.

    Personally I prefer not getting too crazy with roles since while the town can deduce Roleblocker or Doctor, deducing 3-shot Lynchproof Odd-Day Amnesiac Tracker Miller is just not possible.

    (which is not to say it won't appear in my game. Or will it?)



  • I think we discussed in Club Ded adding definitions for MyLo and LyLo after the game, but that doesn't really seem to fit right in "Game Categories"... maybe more in a general glossary?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Also, figuring out the izzion-party interactions between the roles can get painful.

    Just determining whether you're hitting MyLo or LyLo is vicious once you get a lot of power roles. It might be worth trying to avoid role madness just to avoid DM madness. :wink:


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    Should we consider Cult to be Bastard here?

    Did we ever decide this?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Yamikuronue Based on your Type-A/Type-B proposal which I don't recall anyone having any problems with, I think we did decide that yes it should.


  • mod

    The Fox Amendment

    Proposed amendment number 1:

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    No Cult or cult-like factions*

    • Cult-like is defined as any faction that changes player alignments.

    Proposed Amendment number 2:

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    The player is given all information about their role; there are no hidden powers, or powers that are not explained to any player at the start of the game.


    All in favor? I believe this covers the three points listed in Club Ded more succinctly:

    If any part of a player's role card may change after the game has started, the game is bastard
    If any player may be randomly assigned a role based on some external condition, and they do not know so before the start of the game, the game is bastard.
    If any group of players has an ability, and this is not common knowledge in the group before the start of the game, the game is bastard.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    All in favor?

    Aye.

    Also, meta rule: if the GM is rules lawyering about whether their game is bastard, it's probably bastard


  • sockdevs

    @Jaloopa said in Game Categories:

    Also, meta rule: if the GM is rules lawyering about whether their game is bastard, it's probably bastard

    so would that mean my proposed game (which isn't in the game queue yet.... hint hint. ;-)) is bastard or not?

    https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/969333

    i have a hard time deciding if that one is bastard or not.

    I think I would have a pretty clear case for normal if i kept the attributes to the standard four (the first four on my list) as it's apparently accepted meta (according to the mafia wiki article on the cop role) that the existence of these modifiers is accepted in normal?

    but with those last two attributes? that gets harder to justify.

    In the end i decided that should the game proposal be accepted and added to the queue ( ;-) ;-) ) I would leave the determination of whether it was normal or minibastard to the players, but it may be a good idea to answer that question now?


  • mod

    @accalia I think it's fine. If you run it as an open setup (meaning all that is in the rules text at the beginning of the game), it's 100% non-bastard, because every bit of the rules are explained to someone. If you run it very closed, as in, you tell everyone they're sane cops and secretly they're not, then it's definitely bastard, because there's no place in the game text someone could piece together what their power actually is.

    That's really the dividing line here: Is there some place in the game text where the players could possibly discover how the power works. Usually it's the role card, but in an open setup, the setup information can contain bonus rules outside the rule card, and it'd be fine.




  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Yamikuronue Not really a player yet, but if it still counts, Aye.


  • sockdevs

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    All in favor?

    aye, and i agree with jaloopa

    @Jaloopa said in Game Categories:

    if the GM is rules lawyering about whether their game is bastard, it's probably bastard


  • mod

    Five upboats and three replies, I'mma go with it :)


  • sockdevs

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    upboats

    Infinitely better than downboats. Downboats don't get to their destinations, instead they get eaten by the Kraken.


  • mod

    @Yamikuronue said in Game Categories:

    The player is given all information about their role; there are no hidden powers

    A couple other ideas that I've been tossing around:

    1. MafiaScum requires all their GMs to have experience playing on their site before GMing. Sufficient experience playing elsewhere may be considered as a substitute, but it is generally considered a good idea to have experience with the local game culture first. Now that we are several games deep and we have a bunch of regulars, do we want to institute something like that?
    2. I'd like to propose that anyone running their first game runs the setup by either an experienced GM or a dedicated Club-Deder to get help identifying the correct categorization and to check for a good balance. This rule would also kick in if an experienced GM is waffling about the categorization of their game.

Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to What the Daily WTF? was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.