🔥 Yore driving, Deez roasted Nuts! 🔥


  • BINNED

    @anotherusername said:

    Zipper merge requires you to match speed with the other lane and find an opening. If you're passing instead of doing that then you're doing it wrong and fuck you asshole.

    I have the impression you are someone who only drives on the right lane and gets frustrated with people who legally drive until the end of the road. You literally are saying everybody should be an idiot and should go stand in one queue on one lane.
    Zip merging requires you to wait until the end of the lane and then you match speed and the remaining lane is required to allow you in. That is how zip merging is described in Belgium in the road code. If you only hammer on the second part you are :doing_it_wrong:.

    I'll wave when I pass.


  • BINNED

    @loopback0 said:

    Going "this will get me there faster".

    Well ... if everybody in front of me would move to a different lane I would get there faster!


  • BINNED

    @Rhywden said:

    Not in GermanyEurope , no. We don't have cookie-cutter cities with straight streets from a ruler.

    My daily commute contains sight seeing elements that are marked on touristic maps.


  • BINNED

    @boomzilla said:

    I'm fond as anyone of calling rhwyden an idiot, but he's right in this case.

    How unfortunate ... you have my sympathy



  • @abarker said:

    I'm not generally worried about a drink during such activities.

    Yeah, guess it can wait 30 seconds...



  • @Rhywden said:

    Secondly, nowhere did I state that you "were to floor it down to the end of the lane".

    Well, you don't live in Orlando Florida. Here, about 3 out of 5 cars will drive all the way to the end of the constriction and then stop because there's nowhere to go. Then people in the adjacent lane take pity on them and stop to let them in.

    Which means that everyone winds up stopping because these people won't merge "at the beginning" of the constriction, as the law you quoted said they are supposed to.

    It is frustrating, because their idiocy winds up penalizing everyone, including themselves.

    Even more frustrating is when I see people "un-merge" from a through lane, into a lane they full well know forces them to merge ahead, and then accelerate all the way down to the end to get ahead of a half-dozen cars.

    Sorry if I made an aspersion of you that wasn't true, but I took your statement to mean you joined in with these idiots in doing the same thing.

    (I've actually made a mini-hobby of leaving a large gap ahead of me in the adjacent lane to allow people to merge, then counted the cars that go by that simply ignored the gap, to race to the end of the constriction. Usually, no one merges.)

    @blakeyrat said:

    So here's a question: if in your weird world, if you're not supposed to merge at the actual end of the lane, how far back is it "ok" to merge? Is there a marker somewhere indicating that? Or do people just have to instinctively know? If the latter, does everybody instinctively know the same distance? How is that coordinated?

    (Washington) State Patrol offers insight on merging traffic

    The Driver Guide says: “Entering into traffic — When you merge with traffic, signal and enter at the same speed that traffic is moving. High-speed roadways generally have ramps to give you time to build up your speed for merging into traffic. Do not drive to the end of the ramp and stop or you will not have enough room to get up to the speed of traffic. Also, drivers behind you will not expect you to stop and you may be hit from the rear. If you have to wait for space to enter a roadway, slow down on the ramp so you have some room to speed up before you have to merge.”



  • Ramps are a different matter, though, because, as your own quote states, you are entering traffic.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @anotherusername said:

    No. Because other traffic is more likely to follow you and use both lanes if you're not being an asshole about it.

    I'm not talking about being an asshole about it.

    @anotherusername said:

    In what way does one solitary person zipping up to the very front and cutting into a lane of traffic that's already queued help to make the situation any better?

    Better overall, I mean. Not just better for you.

    Go back and read what everyone has been saying. Go read that study.



  • Well, this was fun. @anotherusename, I am going to venture a guess, based on how you see cutting in line as a near-mortal sin, that you are british. And you are trying to argue with a german about how to best queue on an autobahn. You're so far apart that if you take one step back you'd bump into each other. Hilarious!


  • FoxDev

    End
    Mute


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    COOL STORY.

    ­


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    On my commute, people are perfectly fine alternating here:

    But in any situation like this:

    You need to signal and merge over the instant there's an opening, or you'll end up forced back off the freeway thanks to people following to closely and pretending they don't see you. If you're ever forced to stop to wait for an opening, you'll never be able to merge in at speed.

    Beyond those two points, there's a spot where the number of lanes reduces from three to two. Knowing, as I do, that if I don't merge over nobody's going to let me in, how am I supposed to justify going to the end of the closing lane, praying someone lets me zipper in, having to slow and/or stop, and then having to floor it to try and get speed back up when I merge in?

    The key point in the study that was posted, I think, is that highway officials were trying to enforce the correct behavior with signage instead of just trusting that everyone will do it magically on their own.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    🍿

    I'm just wondering what my next GIS should be...


  • Java Dev

    Ah, the onramp-becoming-offramp problem. There's one near here over a bridge. There didn't used to be a separate bridge for local traffic, so with the main highway going 100 km/h or above people would enter the onramp at 50 km/h and never accelereate util they left again at the offramp 300m onward.

    Also (in a different location) cars who need to go off entering the off-ramp and reducing speed without accounting for other cars who were using the onramp.

    These were commonly put in here under the name 'Weefvak' (lit. weaving ramp), but they're falling out of grace because they don't work in practice.



  • What's funny is, now that this has been split out into its own topic you can easily find the picture that started it all, and see that there's actually a big orange sign with an arrow pointed at just about the optimal place to merge.


  • BINNED

    @PJH said:

    next GIS

    Hete wijven


  • area_deu

    That is not the optimal place to merge. That sign is just there so idiots who plow into the pylons at 50 mph can't sue the state.

    For the record, I'm also the one who always drives to the end of the lane and starts merging maybe 50 m before the lane closes. If traffic on the continuing lane is stopped anyway, I drive right up to the end and just barge in. Fuck those idiots.

    But if I'm the one on the continuing lane for whatever reason, I always leave gaps open for zip merging. At the right place of course (i.e. at the end of the other lane).


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Luhmann said:

    Hete wijven

    Breasticles!

    Not quite what I had in mind for the next 🔥🍿...


  • Fake News

    @ChrisH said:

    That is not the optimal place to merge. That sign is just there so idiots who plow into the pylons at 50 mph can't sue the state.

    It might be a good spot to start slowing down, of course.



  • I just love reading flame wars again because Discourse marks all the Jeffed posts as unread.

    I have been driving for about 40 years, and this conversation is the first time ever that I have read or been told anything other than anticipate, plan ahead, if you see a situation arising in which you need to act (merge, slow down, whatever), do so early and smoothly; don't wait until the last second where you might be forced to swerve, slam on your brakes, whatever.

    @Rhywden said:

    "the traffic keeps flowing smoothly when late merging"

    Maybe late merging is the right way to merge if everybody drove perfectly, but in the real world it doesn't keep traffic flowing smoothly. There are several problems. Admittedly, merging early does not prevent these, but neither does merging keep traffic flowing, either.

    • If there is enough traffic on the road for it to matter how you merge, the lane you're trying to merge into already has cars driving with less than the minimum safe spacing for the speed at which they're travelling. Even assuming a perfect, smooth zip, you are now reducing the spacing between the cars to less than 50% of the already inadequate space. (Let's say for the sake of illustration that the traffic speed would require 6 car lengths of braking distance. The actual distance between cars is probably 5 (or less). Now you merge from the other lane; you car takes up one of those 5, leaving only 2 ahead of and 2 behind your car.) Traffic will slow down because of this; you have a traffic jam even with a perfect merge.
    • The late merge requires that everyone on the road zip together perfectly, which means everyone has to drive with skill and courtesy. If even one person fails to merge smoothly, it throws everyone else off.
    • 99% of the people on the road believe that merging late is "waiting until the last second to crowd in front of me," that is, "merge late" == "rude prick," and a significant fraction of those 99% will themselves be rude pricks in response by refusing to allow the late mergers enough room to merge, thus forcing the merging lane stop or slow down suddenly. Now the lanes are no longer speed matched, and the zipper merge is screwed for everyone.
    • At least some of the late mergers really are rude pricks and will rush ahead to try to merge in front of the car they should have merged behind, forcing the receiving lane to slow down and screwing everybody.
    • In at least some jurisdictions, the law requires drivers to slow for such a restriction ("Slow for the Cone Zone"), so there's a shock wave and possible traffic jam regardless of how you merge.

    I'm willing to concede that late merging may, indeed, be the correct way to merge, but 99.984827% of the time it won't actually help the traffic flow. If traffic is heavy enough that Doing It Wrong™ will cause a traffic jam, Doing It Right™ won't keep traffic flowing smoothly, either, and if it's light enough that it flows smoothly through the restriction by Doing It Right™, Doing It Wrong™ probably isn't going to jam it up.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    I'm willing to concede that late merging may, indeed, be the correct way to merge, but 99.984827% of the time it won't actually help the traffic flow.

    And your 99% number will be
    a) pulled out of your ass and
    b) be totally wrong.

    The state of Michigan would disagree with you: http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/workzone/doc/When-latemerge-zipper.pdf

    This also answers your misconceptions.



  • @Luhmann said:

    the remaining lane is required to allow you in. That is how zip merging is described in ■■■■■■■ in the road code.

    Not every rode code requires that. Not every driver does it, even if required to do so.



  • @Rhywden said:

    The state of Michigan would disagree with you

    It's Minnesota, not Michigan, but I'll give you a pass on this because you're a furriner; I don't know all the German states, either.

    @Rhywden said:

    This also answers your misconceptions.
    Partially. It also confirms that I am right about some of them.

    Late merge is not always best:

    Obviously, when traffic conditions are light and vehicles are traveling at highway speeds, it is best to make the merge maneuver as soon as safely possible rather than leaving that merge maneuver to the last moment at high speed.

    Most people have been taught that early merge is best:

    Therefore, most motorists start to merge as soon as they see warning signs and discover which lane is closed. Since they were taught this, it is their mindset that everyone else ‘Not Merging’ immediately is ‘wrong’....

    ... Unfortunately, while the safer procedure is legal, it is not what has been taught.

    Late merge doesn't really help the traffic flow through the restriction:

    Our analysis has shown that the Zipper System has no effect on travel time through the work zone. Unfortunately, the motorist’s travel time through a work zone appears to remain approximately the same regardless of whether the zipper was used or not.

    That's not to say that it doesn't have some benefits in heavy traffic; it does:

    the traffic is traveling approximately the same speed in both lanes making the maneuver is much easier and safer.

    ­

    We reduce the overall length of the backup by up to 50% (40% is common). While this may not be important in rural areas, it is critical in the metro area where the backups affect other interchanges. Therefore, we reduce the congestion problem for the other interchanges.

    ­

    everyone is “equally” disadvantaged by the backup and while the driver may not be happy, they have no reason to be mad at a fellow driver in the backup. Therefore, “Road Rage” is reduced significantly.

    If everyone is doing it, anyway. If only a few people are using the empty lane to pass everyone who has already merged, road rage is increased — based on my own attitude toward people doing this and on

    ... it is their mindset that everyone else ‘Not Merging’ immediately is ‘wrong’. This may lead to many adverse conditions during high traffic volumes such as during rush hour.

    So yes, overall it is a good thing, and I will change my driving habits accordingly, but it really doesn't help the traffic flowing through the restriction get through the restriction faster. The primary advantage seems to be less adverse effect on nearby roads. If and when it becomes widely practiced, it may reduce the chance of collisions in the back up and reduce road rage, but when only a few people are doing it, it may make those worse.

    Also, it works in Minnesota because they put up signs explicitly telling people to do this. In 40 years of driving I can't recall ever seeing such signs in any other state (and I've never been to Minnesota, so I haven't seen them there, either).


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @anotherusername said:

    A restriction causes higher traffic density and lower average speed (shockwaves) in the traffic approaching the restriction, and lower traffic density and higher average speed after passing it.

    Problem with your reasoning: It takes some time until the traffic density becomes low again. During that time, the probability of chain reactions increases by an order of magnitude. Those chain reactions are exactly what causes spontaneous traffic jams.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @FrostCat said:

    "I'll just mosey up this otherwise-empty lane at the 2mph speed of the full lane next to me, thus defeating the entire point of getting in the lane in the first place."

    The problem is that the lane is empty. That shouldn't be the case in the first place. People need to be educated.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @HardwareGeek said:

    Late merge doesn't really help the traffic flow through the restriction:

    Our analysis has shown that the Zipper System has no effect on travel time through the work zone. Unfortunately, the motorist’s travel time through a work zone appears to remain approximately the same regardless of whether the zipper was used or not.

    Travel time of a single car != flow. Those are completely different quantities.



  • True. That document doesn't really mention throughput (I saw that ninja edit), and the travel time of a single car is the only one of those quantities a typical driver cares about.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @HardwareGeek said:

    and the travel time of a single car is the only one of those quantities a typical driver cares about

    Yeah, that's the whole problem. People could drive differently, which wouldn't significantly affect their travel time, but increase the throughput/flow a lot.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @loopback0 said:

    I don't tend to get stuck in the theory of driving when I'm sat in a traffic jam averaging like 6mph.

    If you would, you'd know that the best thing you can do is leave enough space between you and the car in front of you (average speed in congested traffic is a function of the amount of space per single car, that's why the truck lane is always faster). The worst thing you can do in congested traffic is change lanes.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @asdf said:

    leave enough space between you and the car in front of you

    I do that anywway.

    @asdf said:

    The worst thing you can do in congested traffic is change lanes.

    I don't do that.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Congratulations, you're not an asshole.



  • @asdf said:

    increase the throughput/flow a lot

    Again, that report does not support a claim that late merge improves throughput (nor does it refute it; it simply doesn't address it), other than improving the flow through nearby interchanges. This is a benefit, of course, but not to the drivers whose decisions affect those interchanges. Since most drivers are currently unaware that they can benefit others at insignificant cost to themselves, it has no effect on their decisions. I think many, but not all, drivers would "do the right thing" if they knew of the benefits, but as previously stated, most have been taught that merging early is doing the right thing.



  • Then teach them differently. I fail to see the problem here.



  • @CoyneTheDup said:

    (Washington) State Patrol offers insight on merging traffic

    That is not only a common sense "duh" thing ("don't stop on a ramp"), but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

    But at least someone's kind of attempting to answer my extremely basic questions, I guess.



  • Ok so again, you don't merge at the end because jerks won't let you in.

    So how are you supposed to telepathically determine the point at which jerks WILL let you in? It's just a slight rephrasing of my question, but the question's still open.

    I don't have telepathy, so I'm incapable of following your strange driving rules.



  • @Buddy said:

    What's funny is, now that this has been split out into its own topic you can easily find the picture that started it all, and see that there's actually a big orange sign with an arrow pointed at just about the optimal place to merge.

    Ok, excuse me, because I usually do this thing called "logic", so I have to ask:

    If the DMV wanted you to merge exactly where that sign was, why wouldn't they have moved the cones closing the lane to immediately behind that sign?

    People don't do things for no reason. The space between the sign and the cones was left for a reason... what was it?

    @HardwareGeek said:

    I have been driving for about 40 years, and this conversation is the first time ever that I have read or been told anything other than anticipate, plan ahead, if you see a situation arising in which you need to act (merge, slow down, whatever), do so early and smoothly; don't wait until the last second where you might be forced to swerve, slam on your brakes, whatever.

    People in this thread promoting late merging are not saying you should:

    • Pass at unsafe speeds
    • Swerve
    • Slam on your brakes

    Nobody's saying that.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    Maybe late merging is the right way to merge if everybody drove perfectly, but in the real world it doesn't keep traffic flowing smoothly. There are several problems. Admittedly, merging early does not prevent these, but neither does merging keep traffic flowing, either.

    THERE IS A PDF FROM A HIGHWAY DEPARTMENT THAT STUDIED THE PROBLEM SCIENTIFICALLY UP-THREAD so you'll excuse me if I don't read your stupid bullet points.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    At least some of the late mergers really are rude pricks and will rush ahead to try to merge in front of the car they should have merged behind, forcing the receiving lane to slow down and screwing everybody.

    As we've said in this thread a million times, if morons wouldn't merge a full HALF MILE early, there wouldn't be ROOM ON THE ROAD for a jerk like this to "rush ahead".

    @HardwareGeek said:

    I'm willing to concede that late merging may, indeed, be the correct way to merge, but 99.984827% of the time it won't actually help the traffic flow.

    READ THE FUCKING STUDY. It's in plain English. It's not difficult to interpret.

    "I'm willing to concede the studied and scientifically proven method will work, but I'm going to in the same sentence inflexibly state it own't work 99.9999999% of the time because I'm a dumb moron who types self-contradictory arguments and hopes his readers will be too stupid to fall for them."

    "I'm willing to concede that evolution via natural selection is right, but in 99.99999999% of cases people and animals were created exactly as-is directly by God's finger-zapping and The Flintstones is a documentary filmed in real-time."



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    Late merge is not always best:

    You live in Washington State. When are traffic conditions "light"? I guess for about 15 minutes on Sunday afternoon between 3:30 and 3:45?

    I don't even know why they bother to put up speed limit signs in this State, as if you'll ever hit those unrealistic numbers.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    Most people have been taught that early merge is best:

    A lot of people have been taught a lot of wrong things. That doesn't make the things right.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    Late merge doesn't really help the traffic flow through the restriction:

    Nobody argued it did.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    If everyone is doing it, anyway. If only a few people are using the empty lane to pass everyone who has already merged, road rage is increased — based on my own attitude toward people doing this and on

    Anybody becoming enraged at someone using a lane which they could also be using if they wanted is like literally psychologically crazy.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    So yes, overall it is a good thing, and I will change my driving habits accordingly, but it really doesn't help the traffic flowing through the restriction get through the restriction faster.

    Nobody claimed it would. Nobody. Nada.

    "Well this merge strategy is bad because you claimed it would make a purple elephant from Mars teleport onto the White House lawn to sing show tunes and that won't happen!"

    "Nobody claimed anything about a purp--"

    "I'm going to repeat that assumption because I assume my readers are so stupid they didn't immediately dismiss the first time I repeated that nonsense!"

    You win Debating 101. Super mega A++ win all debating activities.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @blakeyrat said:

    So how are you supposed to telepathically determine the point at which jerks WILL let you in?

    When the lane end gets closer, I put on my blinker and look for a gap. Just like any other lane change.



  • Right; so the super scientific genius answer is: when the lane end gets closer.

    Well guess what? That's exactly what late mergers are doing, and apparently you didn't like that idea before. So maybe we need to define "closer" here?

    Or maybe you're saying all traffic rules should be based on gut instinct and not wanting to piss off unpredictable jerks instead of science and measurement.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    I've said it before, I'll say it again.

    Mandatory self-driving cars.

    Pilot-level qualifications needed for manual operation.

    Manual operation forbidden in city limits.

    Done.


  • BINNED

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Pilot-level qualifications needed for manual operation.

    The car will probably pop-up several modal dialogs before almost every manual action. And the satnav will show ads.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Toasters!



  • When we are the Borg, a lot less travelling will be necessary and when we do have to drive we'll all know exactly how to get out of the way of the units in the other cars. Just one of the millions of ways life will be better as part of the Collective.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    You live in Washington State. When are traffic conditions "light"?

    I moved here from California. For all Seattlites complain about it, compared to L.A. or Silicon Valley, they have no clue what heavy traffic is, not a Belgium clue.

    @blakeyrat said:

    I don't even know why they bother to put up speed limit signs in this State, as if you'll ever hit those unrealistic numbers.
    I routinely drive at or slightly above the posted limit. Admittedly, I rarely go into downtown Seattle; I know traffic through downtown can be slow, but the same traffic in L.A. would turn into "The Great Moveway Jam".



  • @blakeyrat said:

    If the DMV wanted you to merge exactly where that sign was, why wouldn't they have moved the cones closing the lane to immediately behind that sign?

    @ChrisH said:

    That sign is just there so idiots who plow into the pylons at 50 mph can't sue the state.

    So you're saying that it's all good to ignore very clear road markings because you believe you know why they actually put them there? What's next “the sign is in all caps, so it's addressing me as a fictitious entity”?



  • @Buddy said:

    What's next “the sign is in all caps, so it's addressing me as a fictitious entity”?

    That's only true if the flag in the DMV headquarters has a gold fringe!!!


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @blakeyrat said:

    maybe we need to define "closer" here?

    Sorry, I was on mobile, I meant "close". My point was that if you put your blinker on, it becomes easier to find where there'll be a gap. Sometimes that's early, sometimes that's late. If I don't start looking until the end of the lane, because "late merging is better", I run a serious risk of not being able to maintain speed as I run out of lane.



  • But you only do late merge when the traffic's congested, and then the speed's under 20 MPH anyway. There's no speed to maintain.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    There's a major difference between "Stopped" and "20mph". And more so on my usual commute, where we slow to about 40 (with way too small following distance) without becoming stop-and-go congestion.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    if morons wouldn't merge a full HALF MILE early, there wouldn't be ROOM ON THE ROAD for a jerk like this to "rush ahead".

    I mean the morons who, if you merge 3 car lengths before you would run into the traffic cones, will then use that 3 car length space to rush forward and try to merge in front of you.


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