WTF Paypal?



  • @Matches said:

    high ansi

    No. Their security is not as completely brain-dead as some other organizations, but I don't give them that much credit. I think it's sufficiently unlikely to work that I haven't even tried.



  • @Matches said:

    high ansi

    ask a blunt question, get a...



  • @Onyx said:

    Also, do we have to send both of our MiGs to help shoot people, or can we keep one at home, just in case?

    You can't keep the MiGs, you gotta buy some used F/A-18s.

    Wait a minute, don't you guys have this whole Euro thing? Wouldn't a payment service be able to handle like... 500 million people in the Euro regardless of what company it's founded in?



  • @DogsB said:

    I always thought that visa and mastercard missed a trick here by not having a similar service.

    VISA tried, but it was too little too late. (They hired my company to do some web analytics around the service.)

    Their software solution was actually quite slick, but by the time it came around the company had already decided to close shop. Kind of like Blockbuster's DVD-by-mail service which was WAY better than Netflix, but came like 6 months before the company was dead as a doornail.


  • BINNED

    @blakeyrat said:

    Wait a minute, don't you guys have this whole Euro thing?

    Not here. We got martens. Feisty little buggers, need reinforced wallets. Also, we can use the change for kindling.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Wouldn't a payment service be able to handle like... 500 million people in the Euro regardless of what company it's founded in?

    And you've got NAFTA over there, why don't you open account in a Bank of Mexico?


  • Java Dev

    AFAIK, in NL, maestro debit cards aren't going anywhere. But then, our debit cards don't have 16-digit card numbers (only credit cards do), instead they use my account number (NL00 BANK 0123 4567 89) and a card number that only means something to the bank. Online payments are typically redirected to the bank and authorized via iDeal.

    Steam uses (IIRC) globalcollect, which supports iDeal, so at least there I don't have to fall back to paypal or my credit card.



  • @Onyx said:

    And you've got NAFTA over there, why don't you open account in a Bank of Mexico?

    There's nothing stopping me from doing that. Not many local ATMs though.

    I don't get your point.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @blakeyrat said:

    Here's my philosophy: if the only way to pay is PayPal, don't buy it.

    Aside from Ebay (no other option), I use PayPal one place out of pure spite.

    Cineplex. Canada's fucking evil monopoly on movie theatres. When they first opened their online ticketing, they offered credit card and paypal. So of course I used credit card.

    And it failed. With no real error message.

    Long fucking story short... everything they could do wrong they did. Fucked up postal code validation? Yup. Fucked up comparing strings with invariant cases? Yup. And best, fucked up the Address Verification-- even when I typed in my address 100% as it appears on my bill, capitalization and everything. No workie.

    Literally everything they could fuck up they did.

    So I used PayPal-- to check out with the EXACT SAME FUCKING CREDIT CARD.

    So every since then-- knowing that PayPal charges them MUCH higher processing fees than MasterCard-- I use PayPal out of spite.



  • I've used Paypal too, but never with any money in it. I say to use Paypal, I get sent to Paypal, Paypal says I have no money, and I click the option to charge my card this once. At least that's how it worked a few years ago... I usually use my bank's "single use" CC numbers: connect to bank, ask for CC number valid X months for max $$$, valid for a single merchant only. Get CC number, plug it in to merchant site, $$$PROFIT$$$. Only problem is with things like airlines that want to see the credit card you used when boarding.



  • I feel you. I deleted my paypal accounts after I found out about paypalsucks.com and read through their horror stories.
    I NEVER gave them access to my bank account (thank god), and they only ever had access to one (low limit) credit card.
    They aren't a bank, they aren't regulated like a bank, and you sign your life away to them when you agree to their terms of service.
    Nope.
    HARD nope.



  • @cartman82 said:

    And now I can't disconnect my credit card. Great.

    Contact the bank, cut it off at the source. Probably should do that anyway, just to be safe ;)


  • Dupa

    @hungrier said:

    MasterCard and I can't recall anywhere it wasn't accepted..

    Holland.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I thought MasterCard was just accepted everywhere like Visa.

    Unlike AMEX in the UK. That's often pot luck for some reason.
    The silly thing about it is when I go somewhere which accepts Discover and JCB but not AMEX. Discover and JCB aren't even fucking issued in the UK whereas AMEX is.


  • Dupa

    @loopback0 said:

    I thought MasterCard was just accepted everywhere like Visa.

    I did too. But my MasterCard credit card proved to be a problem quite a few times when on trip in the Netherlands.



  • @Matches said:

    (paypal uses the same url format for sandbox and real url. Leave off the sandbox tag, but test with real customer info and you'll cause this)

    How is this legally allowed for an institution/company that in many countries holds a banking license?



  • @Matches said:

    Yeah, the only problem is that is the default code for their api example

    If that's from the default code for their API example, why in all the unholy hell does their default example not contain a special marker that flags the transaction as inappropriate, shoots it down, then shit-cans whatever developer account was used to make the transaction ON A LIVE ENVIRONMENT.

    Oh wait; that would actually be providing a service to your users ... and this is PayPal we're talking about: pay, yes; pall, no.



  • In my experience, my MasterCard and VISA are both accepted everywhere. AMEX is around 85%, and Diner's Club is about 50%.



  • @kt_ said:

    Holland.

    @kt_ said:

    But my MasterCard credit card proved to be a problem quite a few times when on trip in the Netherlands.

    MasterCard is generally accepted in the Netherlands. Several of the major Dutch consumer banks even deal in branded MasterCard creditcards that are generally accepted world-wide. Iirc MasterCard is actually more common in the Netherlands than Visa is.

    You must've run afoul of some sellers that specifically had issues with MasterCard, or you yourself are using a branded MasterCard that isn't quite like the real thing and is thus not supported well by payment providers, etc.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @loopback0 said:

    Unlike AMEX in the UK. That's often pot luck for some reason.

    It's because AMEX anally violates their merchants. 10% fees aren't unheard of. I honestly can't think of anywhere I shop that takes Amex. Even Costco-- both in Canada and the US; Amex fucked things up there.

    AMEX: "Hey, Costco, we're raising your rates"
    Costco: "No, you aren't."
    AMEX: "We can do what we want we're AMEX! I'm an awesome CEO and jacking your rates will net us a huge profit with no losses at all!"
    Costco: "Hey, Mastercard. Want to process our transactions at the usual rate? We do about $17 billion a year in transactions
    MC: Yes. Done.
    Costco: Done.
    AMEX: but but but... fuck.



  • @FrostCat said:

    You can cancel the card by calling your bank. I realize you might not want to.

    Cancelling the card with pending transactions or getting the bank to perform a chargeback is likely going to flag the account with Paypal though, at which point they're known to go into full search&destroy mode -- hunting that money down with extreme prejudice.

    You do NOT want to fuck with these people if the prospect is having your known bank accounts seized while PayPal takes their sweet time to 'investigate' and your mortgage and bills are going unpaid.

    Seriously; they're called PayPal horror stories for a reason...


  • Java Dev

    @kt_ said:

    But my MasterCard credit card proved to be a problem quite a few times when on trip in the Netherlands.

    Probably more a credit card problem than a mastercard problem. Debit cards are extremely common here, and many stores will probably much rather take those.

    I'm Dutch, I've got both, and I don't use the credit card domestically.


  • Dupa

    @Ragnax said:

    You must've run afoul of some sellers that specifically had issues with MasterCard, or you yourself are using a branded MasterCard that isn't quite like the real thing and is thus not supported well by payment providers, etc.

    Well, I'm quite sure it's a Dutch thing. I didn't have any problem with it in Spain, nor in Georgia even. I'm not sure where else I took it but of those two countries I can be sure. It got rejected in quite a few places in NL, though.


  • Dupa

    @PleegWat said:

    Probably more a credit card problem than a mastercard problem. Debit cards are extremely common here, and many stores will probably much rather take those.

    That's probably it, then. Fortunately I had my debit card with me, so I simply used the ATM.


  • Java Dev

    Wouldn't be surprised if the credit card did work in ATMs.

    I've seen the reverse in the UK - stores would prefer the credit card over the debit card, but the ATM would take both.



  • @PleegWat said:

    Wouldn't be surprised if the credit card did work in ATMs.

    They generally do nowadays, yes.


  • Dupa

    @PleegWat said:

    Wouldn't be surprised if the credit card did work in ATMs.

    Yeah, maybe it could but I wouldn't know. My bank charges 5% or 10% fee when I use ATM with my credit crad.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Even Costco

    Costco UK only accept AMEX credit cards. Otherwise it's debit card or cash only.
    This is presumably "unrelated" to them offering a Costco AMEX credit card.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    It's because AMEX anally violates their merchants.

    Yet plenty still accept it. I still find it hard to imagine how it's cheaper for a UK vendor to handle Discover or JCB than AMEX.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @PleegWat said:

    I've seen the reverse in the UK - stores would prefer the credit card over the debit card

    I don't recall physical stores differentiating between them. AFAIK every physical store that accepts cards accepts both MasterCard and Visa debit and credit cards, with the exception of Visa Electron.


  • Java Dev

    Ah, but I don't have a mastercard of visa debit card. I, and most of the people of the Netherlands, have a Maestro debit card which does not have a 16-digit credit card number.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Maestro used to be accepted in a lot of places like Solo/Switch. Switch ended up as Maestro and Solo got canned. It's an equivalent of Visa Electron.
    Most adults aren't issued with Maestro or Visa Electron cards in the UK.



  • Seriously? "A dozen a year" stories about PayPal screwing up? That's one per month, on a service that's used by hundreds of millions of people worldwide.

    Do the people complaining about this even know what "below epsilon" means? Because this is a textbook case.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @loopback0 said:

    Costco UK only accept AMEX credit cards. Otherwise it's debit card or cash only.This is presumably "unrelated" to them offering a Costco AMEX credit card.

    And that's the only reason Costco anywhere accepts it. Now they accept MasterCard (their own, or any brand of it).

    The only reason I have an Amex was because of Costco. Now I only keep it on hand as an emergency backup, and to get access to some concert and theater pre-sales.

    @loopback0 said:

    Yet plenty still accept it. I still find it hard to imagine how it's cheaper for a UK vendor to handle Discover or JCB than AMEX

    Some merchants have Stockholm syndrome. Or they take with with a grin and a tear*, because of the 'prestige' of accepting Amex.

    ... * this can mean either crying, or a rip-- given Amex's vigorous colon-ramming.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Some merchants have Stockholm syndrome. Or they take with with a grin and a tear*, because of the 'prestige' of accepting Amex.

    Or they just want the money.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    The only reason I have an Amex was because of Costco.

    The only reason I have it is because it's a corporate card, and the company's corporate card provider is out of my hands.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Now they accept MasterCard

    Costco UK don't accept MasterCard credit cards in physical locations. Costco UK online seems to be less fussy.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @loopback0 said:

    Costco UK don't accept MasterCard credit cards in physical locations. Costco UK online seems to be less fussy.

    Let's see how long it takes for Amex to fuck up that relationship. Online all you need is a membership number. Or someone else's membership number. They don't match the address up.



  • So people who don't use PayPal: I'm genuinely interested to know what your alternative is. Handing out your card details to every single online store out there?

    I'd rather trust one bunch of idiots (PayPal) who specialize in payment processing than the ~30 bunches of idiots working at the online stores who would otherwise be processing my payments.

    And almost every bank screws up security so bad it's not funny. In the past two years a number of banks here have made "three characters from your password" mandatory even if you use a hardware two-factor token they gave you.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @nexekho said:

    I'm genuinely interested to know what your alternative is. Handing out your card details to every single online store out there?

    I'd rather trust one bunch of idiots (PayPal) who specialize in payment processing than the ~30 bunches of idiots working at the online stores who would otherwise be processing my payments.

    This is pretty much my opinion on it, especially as my Paypal is secured with 2FA.



  • @nexekho said:

    So people who don't use PayPal: I'm genuinely interested to know what your alternative is. Handing out your card details to every single online store out there?

    I'd rather trust one bunch of idiots (PayPal) who specialize in payment processing than the ~30 bunches of idiots working at the online stores who would otherwise be processing my payments.

    And almost every bank screws up security so bad it's not funny. In the past two years a number of banks here have made "three characters from your password" mandatory even if you use a hardware two-factor token they gave you.

    If I can't use my debit card to pay via my own bank and the iDeal system, I use a separate MasterCard that is locked down to only allow transactions signed off on with the additional SecureCard check. This is a bank-issued branded MasterCard that sends my to my own secure banking pages where I use a non-internet connected 2FA token to sign the MasterCard transaction.

    During the signing process I am required to know the credit card's built-in PIN and I am required to verify the transaction amount and the transaction beneficiary which are both tied directly into the signing process on the hardware token.

    That secure enough for you?


  • Notification Spam Recipient

    @Ragnax said:

    That secure enough for you?

    Sure it's secure, but is it convenient?
    Convenience drives the consumers after all....



  • @Tsaukpaetra said:

    Sure it's secure, but is it convenient?Convenience drives the consumers after all....

    Precisely. Remember, security at the expense of usability comes at the expense of security.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @nexekho said:

    ~30 bunches of idiots working at the online stores who would otherwise be processing my payments.

    I'm still waiting on the day when I can make a purchase without giving out my credit card's private key.

    👦 I'd like to buy this 🍔 plz
    👨 $5.88
    👦 Here is a 💰. It has all my monies. All of them. Plz take only $5.88. I'll leave it here while I eat.
    👨 ......... 🆗


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    Or I suppose more accurate:

    "Here is the location where I keep all my monies, and the code to the door. Please only take $5.88. I won't be moving the pit ever. I might change the code if I notice anyone took too much monies, but I only check once a month."



  • Why is your boss the one serving you burgers?


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @rc4 said:

    Why is your boss the one serving you burgers?

    That's his twin brother. He flunked out of college and has spent his whole adulthood flipping burgers.


  • area_can

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    So every since then-- knowing that PayPal charges them MUCH higher processing fees than MasterCard-- I use PayPal out of spite.

    I had no idea! I guess I'll make a note of it for next time I find myself buying tickets.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I hate to break this to you, but everything worth doing is difficult. That's what makes it worth doing.

    Remind yourself of that, the very next time you have trouble with git.


  • BINNED

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    "Here is the location where I keep all my monies, and the code to the door. Please only take $5.88. I won't be moving the pit ever. I might change the code if I notice anyone took too much monies, but I only check once a month."

    That is why around here I have to perform my bank 2fa even after purchasing with my Visa. But yes I guess it's inconvenient for people who aren't even used to enter there pin code after a purchase.



  • @loopback0 said:

    Maestro used to be accepted in a lot of places like Solo/Switch. Switch ended up as Maestro and Solo got canned. It's an equivalent of Visa Electron.

    Most adults aren't issued with Maestro or Visa Electron cards in the UK.

    Even more so, at least here in Germany (and probably in NL as well) it's nearly impossible to find a bank willing to issue a MC/Visa (i.e. 'credit card-compatible', as I call it) debit card, so we have to deal with bullshit like prepaid credit cards which some vendors (I'm looking at you, Azure) flat out refuse and have really high transfer fees...

    ... on the other hand, half of Europe (UK, seemingly France, lots of eastern Europe) manage just fine with CC-compatible debit cards?


  • BINNED

    @loopback0 said:

    Visa Electron

    That's what I got for my online purchases, yeah.

    @Ragnax said:

    This is a bank-issued branded MasterCard that sends my to my own secure banking pages where I use a non-internet connected 2FA token to sign the MasterCard transaction.

    Used to have that, they now switched to a mobile app. On one hand, the non-connected token felt like a more secure thing. On the other, this is less hassle.

    You do have to go to the bank and get a set of 2 keys to connect the app to your account (one on paper, one sent over SMS), and it does have a custom PIN you need to know to access it. I guess it's still easier to crack than that hardware token but meh, good enough for most purposes.



  • Can you change the expiration date to 1/2014?



  • I am a little disappoint. No pictogram dialogue that we've all come to love. :-(


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