:credit_card: Cards


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Status: Apparently I need to failover to my backup credit card because my normal one got used for some good 'ol fraud in Philadelphia yesterday.

    $0 out of pocket and the only inconvenience is 'use another card for a few days'. This is why credit cards are better than debit cards: Fraud handling.

    It annoys me to no end when my otherwise sane friends and colleagues complain about being out of pocket while fraud is resolved on their debit cards when they are CERTAINLY financially capable of properly operating a line of credit.

    The standard defense is 'but fraud is rare!'
    Fuck no it isn't. Every single person I know gets hit once every year or two. Everything from '$2 candybar at a gas station" to "They completely cleaned me out with a $15000 spending spree at retailers all across town".

    And I don't need to bother banging on every gas pump to make sure a skimmer isn't attached, keeping a close eye on every waitress at every restaurant, giving the stink eye to every payment terminal, checking the bona fides of every single website on which I want to buy a knick knack and so on and so forth.

    Thus ends the financial lecture.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Weng said:

    $0 out of pocket and the only inconvenience is 'use another card for a few days'. This is why credit cards are better than debit cards: Fraud handling.

    That has been my experience with fraud on a debit card also...so it seems even to me.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @Weng said:

    It annoys me to no end when my otherwise sane friends and colleagues complain about being out of pocket while fraud is resolved on their debit cards

    I think the issue is the "while it's being resolved" shortage of funds.



  • I haven't had a fraud problem with my debit card so far, but if need be I have a credit card. The real hurt on a debit card is that in case of abuse you're liable, at least initially.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    It depends on the bank. At the end of the day, they ALL refund the money to the account. My understanding is that they are now also required to refund resultant overdraft fees but weren't always. The fact that the government had to make them do that should tell you something about banks. Many will also make you wait until they get the money refunded to them by the merchant's bank before they refund it to you.

    If your bank does that, the ramifications are:

    1. You have less money in your account for the duration to pay bills, etc.
    2. You have less money in your account earning interest (though most of those banks don't do interest on live checking accounts anyway)

    Some banks, to their credit, refund immediately. But they aren't required to. And most don't. If you're lucky enough to not be in that situation, just wait awhile and Mergers/Acquisitions will bring you up to the banking status quo. (Unless Credit Union, in which case :thumbsup:. Although they are also starting to develop an M&A problem.)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Weng said:

    The standard defense is 'but fraud is rare!'
    Fuck no it isn't. Every single person I know gets hit once every year or two.

    Hmm, and it's really much rarer here. Guess that chip-and-PIN stuff actually works.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    The card I just had jacked was a 2-month-old Chip and Signature setup.

    Chip and PIN will never happen in the US.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Weng said:

    Chip and PIN will never happen in the US.

    Used to think the same in the UK. Then we switched. It can be done if the banks are actually willing to put some force in, but it might take an act of Congress or something like that to get them to stop treating you guys like putzes.

    It's no panacea, but it cuts a lot of common fraud down.



  • @dkf said:

    It's no panacea, but it cuts a lot of common fraud down.

    Since it mostly hits the banks, they probably care more about it than I do. My main cards are now chip and signature and the only places I've been that use that are Target and Walmart.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    My main cards are now chip and signature and the only places I've been that use that are Target and Walmart.
    Target, Walmart, Home Depot, the sixpack shop and exactly ONE gas station (but only at the counter to buy soda and shit, the pumps are still magstrip)


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @izzion said:

    I think the issue is the "while it's being resolved" shortage of funds.

    That's the thing though, the very few times that it has happened to me they have always had my money back in my account almost immediately.



  • I don't know anyone who got defrauded through debit card.

    Then again, it helps when you have a pin.

    This whole idea where you have an insecure way to access your savings, and much more secure way to take on debt is VERY suspicious to me.



  • @Weng said:

    (though most of those banks don't do interest on live checking accounts anyway)

    Irrelevant. You'll be drawing that money from your savings account. in the meantime.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Debit cards ARE PIN-protected here. Credit cards aren't.

    They can, however, be used as if they were credit cards for terminals where PIN entry isn't available (like restaurants or online purchases).



  • @Weng said:

    They can, however, be used as if they were credit cards for terminals where PIN entry isn't available (like restaurants or online purchases).

    That's the difference, then. The card that I have can't be used without PIN, period.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    I get texted if I use my card pin-less over $20. So far (wood knocked) nothing has happened.
    Then again, I never use that card....


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Weng said:

    Every single person I know gets hit once every year or two.

    Your circle must be :doing_it_wrong: then. The closest I've ever come to being hit is when my wife accidentally let VistaPrint bill her monthly for some "service" or other after ordering some pictures, and when I had the bank call them up they refunded two months' fees.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Weng said:

    Chip and PIN will never happen in the US.

    I'm sure that's news to Target.

    I'm actually somewhat shocked that Walmart's not doing it yet, two months after the liability cutover. They're so out of it that they don't even tell you unless you ask that chip debit cards still have to be swiped: the machine will sit for a full minute and then spit out your card, saying it timed out, if you insert it. But there's no sign anywhere saying so. IIRC Sam's is doing chip and sign, and they even print out your signature on the receipt, which cracked me up a bit because I'd drawn a fish or something on the pin pad.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @boomzilla said:

    My main cards are now chip and signature and the only places I've been that use that are Target and Walmart.

    Dallas Targets, IIRC, take pins, not signatures, at least on debit cards.



  • @Weng said:

    Chip and PIN will never happen in the US.

    The only place I've used my card that it actually worked (as opposed to "We have the readers, but they don't actually work yet; you'll still have to swipe."), it was chip and ... uh, what? No PIN, no signature, just approved. That makes me feel really confident.



  • @FrostCat said:

    Walmart's not doing it yet, ... the machine will sit for a full minute and then spit out your card, saying it timed out, if you insert it.

    No repro here; Walmart's the place that approves my purchases with no PIN.



  • @FrostCat said:

    @boomzilla said:
    My main cards are now chip and signature and the only places I've been that use that are Target and Walmart.

    Dallas Targets, IIRC, take pins, not signatures, at least on debit cards.

    I'm talking about credit cards. None of mine have PIN numbers<!-- :trollface: --> that I'm aware of. I pretty much only use my debit card to withdraw cash from an ATM machine<!-- :trollface2: --> or deposit checks.

    @HardwareGeek said:

    No PIN, no signature, just approved. That makes me feel really confident.

    Most stores lately don't require a signature for purchases less than $50 (which I think comes from the CC card<!-- :trollface3: --> companies.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Most stores lately don't require a signature for purchases less than $50

    Prior to this, that had been my experience only at places like fast-food restaurants, so I was rather surprised.



  • I'd experienced it plenty at HomeDepot for several years. The grocery store I go to used the $15 threshold for some time, but they've come around to $50 sometime in the past year, IIRC.



  • @boomzilla said:

    CC card

    Do you suffer from RAS syndrome?



  • @rc4 said:

    @boomzilla said:
    CC card

    Do you suffer from RAS syndrome?

    If IIRC correctly, no. <!-- but it's possible that others are suffering -->


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @HardwareGeek said:

    No repro here; Walmart's the place that approves my purchases with no PIN.

    debit card or credit?

    I only have two I've been to since they put the pin pads in, but there's other ones in Dallas that I just haven't been to. Maybe it's a local fuckup, but like I said, the chip simply cannot be used.



  • @FrostCat said:

    debit card or credit?

    Debit



  • I was surprised when I went to Nordstrom the other day and they told me that the reader's chip reader was disabled, yet I've gone to many mom-and-pop stores and they have a verifone machine that supports chip cards. Weird.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @rc4 said:

    I was surprised when I went to Nordstrom the other day and they told me that the reader's chip reader was disabled, yet I've gone to many mom-and-pop stores and they have a verifone machine that supports chip cards. Weird.

    Every place I go that has a chip-enabled reader, I ask if I can use it. Target's machines will beep rudely at you if you try to swipe a chip-enabled card.

    Just about nobody so far (here) is using the chip readers, which boggles the mind, given that the store is now on the hook for fraud instead of the bank.



  • Here the shop has to use chip, or they are responsible for frauds and pay the bill.

    Brazilian law forces banks to take responsibility for frauds, and apparently our banking systems here are far more secure.

    OTOH, crime is rampant here, and there isn't a month without someone I know being assaulted at gunpoint here.



  • They keep raising it. Just a few years ago it was $15.

    I wager Starbucks was a big interest in getting it raised.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @fbmac said:

    Here the shop has to use chip, or they are responsible for frauds and pay the bill.

    They made that change, effective this past October, in an attempt to force merchants to convert to using the chip cards. Nearly everyone had readers that support them at this point, but in my experience almost nobody uses the chip readers. As I said above I am amazed that Walmart hasn't gotten this working yet.



  • @FrostCat said:

    Walmart hasn't gotten this working yet.

    Obviously, this varies from store to store, or region to region, or something. WFM.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @HardwareGeek said:

    this varies

    No :pendant: :fa_flag: for you, because in this case, getting it wrong anywhere is significant, due to the whole "the merchant is on the hook for fraud" thing.

    If they're not getting it right everywhere, they're not getting it right, period.



  • @FrostCat said:

    As I said above I am amazed that Walmart hasn't gotten this working yet.

    Mine has.

    @FrostCat said:

    Nearly everyone had readers that support them at this point, but in my experience almost nobody uses the chip readers.

    My experience is opposite. They're becoming more common, but still far from ubiquitous.



  • But you're moving to contactless cards, aren't you?



  • I don't think so. I hope not. I know that they exist here.



  • I have a dumb question.

    My brother bought me a RFID blocking wallet for christmas.

    At the time I was kind of annoyed/disappointed because while I needed a new wallet, i use RFID EVERYWHERE. My car keys, my ID card for work, my bus pass, all RFID.

    As it turns out only a couple of the pockets in the wallet have the RFID block, so it works fine for me.

    But my question is: does the cards with a chip in them need to be RFID-blocked? Is that what this wallet is for? Right now I just have a magstripe card that's good for another 6 months, but I'm sure they'll give me a chip one when it is replaced.

    Other than that I can't even imagine why ANYBODY would want an RFID blocking wallet, considering how many handy convenient things use RFID.



  • @FrostCat said:

    getting it wrong anywhere is significant

    Of course. Why the heck is something like this not implemented company-wide? How is it even possible that some stores support it and some don't? Does it require some different infrastructure for verification than for basic transaction processing? Don't both go (heavily encrypted, I would hope) over the Internet? What else is needed at the individual store (which already has the reader) to enable the verification?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    But my question is: does the cards with a chip in them need to be RFID-blocked?

    Depends. I remember looking into this when my father in law went paranoid and wanted me and my wife to get RFID blocking. Turns out none of my chipped cards use RFID. Each card type (Visa, MC, Amex, etc) calls it something different, but generally there's also some sort of RFID / radio sort of icon like thing on the card.



  • @HardwareGeek said:

    Why the heck is something like this not implemented company-wide? How is it even possible that some stores support it and some don't?

    Today, Walmart employs more than 1.4 million U.S. associates at more than 5,000 stores and clubs nationwide.

    Yeah, it's a mystery.



  • Hm, I'll just have to ask the bank when they issue it. I'm pretty sure I don't evne want RFID on my ATM card anyway, that sounds dangerous even if the wallet worked perfectly...



  • You can look it up (I did a few months ago). It's not a secret, but I don't remember the details and I don't know what types of cards you have.



  • It's a Bank of America ATM card with a VISA logo, the number is: 7437-3213-6352-1275, the expiration is 5/16 and the check code on the back is 174.



  • Oh, BRB...



  • @boomzilla said:

    You [blakeyrat] can look it up

    :fa_gbp::fa_circle_o::fa_gbp:



  • @Weng said:

    This is why credit cards are better than debit cards: Fraud handling.

    I keep hearing this, and while I have no idea what bank you use, I've asked my bank flat-out about it and they told me:

    The level of fraud handling you get is based on the logo on the card. Every card from that bank with the VISA logo has the same level of fraud handling applied. Whether it's a credit or debit card.

    My experience shows this to be true. That's Bank of America, one of the larger banks in the world.

    Anyway, just saying: if you have a bank that screws you on fraud protection of debit cards, that's not a universal experience. Switch banks.

    @Weng said:

    It annoys me to no end when my otherwise sane friends and colleagues complain about being out of pocket while fraud is resolved on their debit cards when they are CERTAINLY financially capable of properly operating a line of credit.

    I don't have a credit card specifically because I am financially capable enough to know it's a bad idea for me to be in a situation where I could accidentally borrow money.

    It doesn't matter how regularly you pay your bills, how faithfully you move money from checking to savings/money market, how on-time you pay your taxes-- what matters is that a lot of people simply do not want easy credit.

    For me, personally, I consider, "do not want easy credit" to be one of my main indicators of "responsible with money". You never see that friend you have who's always broke turning down credit card offers.

    @Weng said:

    And I don't need to bother banging on every gas pump to make sure a skimmer isn't attached,

    I just pay for gas with gift cards.

    @Weng said:

    keeping a close eye on every waitress at every restaurant,

    I pay cash at restaurants.

    @Weng said:

    giving the stink eye to every payment terminal,

    Meh. Gotta hand you that one, after the Target breach.

    @Weng said:

    checking the bona fides of every single website on which I want to buy a knick knack and so on and so forth.

    I buy from Amazon, NewEgg, Rakuten. If I can't find it on any of those, I usually just don't buy it.



  • @Weng said:

    Some banks, to their credit, refund immediately.

    Oh; so you KNOW you just picked a bad bank, but you posted your OP as if it was a law of nature because...?

    I guess admitting only some banks have that problem would have weakened your point. (Which was, I guess, GET EASY CREDIT! CREDIT NOW! FREE T-SHIRT IF YOU SIGN UP FOR A CREDIT CARD! CREDIT CREDIT CREDIT!)



  • @boomzilla said:

    Yeah, it's a mystery.

    My sarcasm detector is pinging on this. Yeah, they have a lot of stores. But it probably needs an update to their transaction processing software; if it needs more than that, then the following may not apply. Common sense says

    1. Implement the update
    • Test the update
    • Maybe run a pilot in a few stores
    • Push the update live to all the stores
    • Do all of the above before the October deadline

    It's step 4 that seems to have failed (and step 5, obviously), as it seems to be going live incrementally, late, and with no obvious pattern to the roll-out.

    The point of my earlier post was, does it need more than just a software push? If so, what?


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