Which RCS is the best James Blunt?



  • To complement the one regarding programming languages, it could be a good idea to discuss the database software which has the least WTFery going and see if there is an agreement in the forum. I guess SAP, Oracle and FoxPro can be safely disqualified since the beginning. (the most :wtf: database after MUMPS is probably an issue just as interesting, however).

    I would also like to have some questions answered:

    • Most references assume as logical to use PHP as the default server language to communicate with MySQL without thinking it even once. Should I blame the community or the software itself for that. Supposedly there are also Python and Ruby APIs. Are they functional enough?
    • Is SQL Server Express a thing in the field of "free" databases? Or one landmine for the unsuspecting to avoid?


  • @Haloquadratum said:

    Most references assume as logical to use PHP as the default server language to communicate with MySQL without thinking it even once. Should I blame the community or the software itself for that.

    MySQL used to be GPL (i.e.: in the view of user, as long as you don't resell it, it's free to use), and then after they bought by Oracle, they transfer to dual license that forbid your software to embed the DB engine in the installer unless you also share your source code or buy their commercial license.

    Of course, feel free to ask your customers to just download and install MySQL themselves.

    @Haloquadratum said:

    Is SQL Server Express a thing in the field of "free" databases? Or one landmine for the unsuspecting to avoid?

    They're good for simple websites (SharePoint uses them). However because of CPU and memory limitations, you have to think about whether you need higher scalability. Of course it also missing HA capabilities, easy integration with most backup softwares on Windows platform and others (refer to the previous link for more information).

    IMO, it's usually easy enough to migrate from Express to corresponding Standard version, so you may just see if it fits your usage if you have plan to upgrade to Standard when it's not enough.



  • In my day job, I use MSSQL... it's great most of the time, but it is decidedly NOT free.

    For side projects where I'm using PHP and ASP.NET 5 (both running on OS X), I've recently switched from MySQL to PostgreSQL, and I have to say I'm impressed.

    It performs admirably so far, has excellent free admin tools, and the type system is impressive (for example: you don't need to choose between text and varchar(x) for performance, just choose text and it'll do the right thing). The syntax is a little different than either MSSQL or MySQL, but I caught on quickly.

    You may find this link useful:

    (The article mentions read performance as an issue with PostgreSQL -- while my server loads are minimal, I haven't noticed any difference at all vs. my old MySQL database. YMMV. The article is almost 2 years old, so perhaps the more recent versions have closed that gap.)

    Personally, I wouldn't put my eggs in the SQL Server Express basket. It's purposefully hobbled so it is only really useful for desktop-mode applications, has no free GUI management tools, and is limited to the Windows platform.

    EDIT: I was wrong about Express not having a GUI admin tool. The capabilities and license restrictions are also more amenable than the last time I looked. But it is still, for now, Windows-only, which if of course fine if that's what you're targeting.



  • For multi-user environments: MSSQL.
    For single-user environments, or very low number user environments: SQLite, though it has some right quirks like foreign keys being off by default, types on columns are basically ignored.



  • SQLite is good for lightweight database, just it doesn't support complex queries very well.

    I usually use SQLite for remote storage of Apps where the network may be offline when use.



  • Oracle :trolleybus:



  • @loopback0 said:

    Oracle :trolleybus:

    @Haloquadratum said:
    I guess SAP, Oracle and FoxPro can be safely disqualified

    Yeah. :trolleybus:



  • To be fair I don't actually have an issue with Oracle SQL. I quite like it.

    It's not me paying the licensing bill though.


  • area_deu

    Where's @frostcat when you need him?



  • Generally, when people told you that you shouldn't choose Oracle, the advice is usually based on:

    1. Price of the database software, which translates as $$$.
    2. You need to hire a DBA to tune and look after it for it to "unleash it's fullpower", which translates as $$$.

    So if you have $$$, and you know your client have $$$, feel free to choose it.



  • @RichardTallent said:

    has no free GUI management tools,

    How is the year 2000? Since 2005 Express edition there is a slightly watered down version of SQL management available for free. Back in the day I even used it to manage MSDB 2000 instances because there was no interface for those.


  • area_deu

    @Luhmann said:

    How is the year 2000? Since 2005 Express edition there is a slightly watered down version of SQL management available for free. Back in the day I even used it to manage MSDB 2000 instances because there was no interface for those.

    Free SSMS for 2012 is plenty good, yup.



  • Definitely a + for SQL express. And the easy upgrade path. Just plug in a key and install additional components if necessary.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @aliceif said:

    Where's @frostcat when you need him?

    Asleep! It was like 4AM when you wrote that.

    I actually don't have a lot to say, though. I wouldn't blindly recommend Progress to people because it means you're going to have to learn a different DML, not to mention a whole new programming language, for best effect.

    Oh, and it's not free, either: the development package is, IIRC, around $3600.



  • @RichardTallent said:

    For side projects where I'm using PHP and ASP.NET 5 (both running on OS X), I've recently switched from MySQL to PostgreSQL, and I have to say I'm impressed.

    Yes this. If you're used to using MSSQL I've found PostgreSQL to be reasonably close and much more friendly than MySQL.



  • PostgreSQL, of course.



  • SQL Server Express + SQL Server Management Studio Express both work very well for small-to-medium corporate projects. I don't think I've ever had to use full-blown paid-for SQL Server for anything.

    MySQL is okay for development but all the management tools suck compared to SQL Server. I'm also a fan of SQLite for some things but there are NO management tools, though there is SQLite Browser which can open up a database and let you poke around.



  • @mott555 said:

    MySQL is okay for development but all the management tools suck compared to SQL Server.

    Oh, come on. How can you be down on having to install a web server and a PHP application set of scripts just to manage your RDBMS? Or better still, doing the SQL queries from the CLI the way God intended...



  • @izzion said:

    Oh, come on. How can you be down on having to install a web server and a PHP application set of scripts just to manage your RDBMS?

    MySQL Workbench is a PHP set of scripts? Funny, I could have sworn it was a Managed (read: .NET) C++ application.

    Filed under: Managed C++ is the real WTF



  • I would point out that your link goes to MySQL Utilities, which is CLI. Though probably not doing the SQL queries directly.

    And I would point out that the joke was obviously that PHPMyAdmin is like the goto for simple database management, especially in the "free as in beer" segment that is the biggest user base for MySQL anyway.

    And then I wouldn't be too sure whether you whooshed or whether I'm whooshing.

    Maybe we should just flag @accalia. You know, just to be safe.

    (I kid. Please don't bite me with those sharp fox teeth.)



  • @izzion said:

    Maybe we should just flag @accalia. You know, just to be safe.

    :+1:


  • sockdevs

    @izzion said:

    Maybe we should just flag @accalia.

    -_-

    NO.

    @loopback0 said:

    :+1:
    :-1: :-1:

    BAD Loopback0!

    BAD



  • The raw for the :-1: emoji looks like some really constipated guy with a beard. Or something.



  • @cheong said:

    They're good for simple websites (SharePoint uses them). However because of CPU and memory limitations, you have to think about whether you need higher scalability. Of course it also missing HA capabilities, easy integration with most backup softwares on Windows platform and others (refer to the previous link for more information).

    The CPU and memory limitations are plenty high for 99% of the things most of us will do.

    SQL Express doesn't have any backup limitations. It doesn't include a scheduler (SQL Server Agent) - but if you are integrating with backup software, you wouldn't use SQL's scheduler anyways.

    Lack of HA is a legitimate gripe, but you could simply use your hypervisor's HA for most of the cases that SQL Express is relevant for.



  • I think I'll vote for Root Mean Square.



  • @aliceif said:

    Where's @frostcat when you need him?

    In my videos thread, spamming it up with him being a dick.



  • @RichardTallent said:

    has no free GUI management tools,

    I'd say you're time-poddin', but I'm pretty sure SSMS has been free longer than there's been a Express edition.

    Parallel universe'n.



  • @Haloquadratum said:

    Supposedly there are also Python and Ruby APIs. Are they functional enough?

    A php server with apache use much, much less memory than any of the modern alternatives. This is why you can host something simple with php+mysql for US$1/month.



  • @izzion said:

    I would point out that your link goes to MySQL Utilities, which is CLI. Though probably not doing the SQL queries directly.

    whacks Chrome
    I hit Ctrl-C on the MySQL Workbench page after copying the MySQL Client Utilities URL and then deciding I didn't need to put anything about that in the message. Apparently Chrome decided it didn't want to copy the new URL or I hit something else other than C.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    MSSQL is my bread and butter. It's sane, perform any and requires minimal DBA oversight.

    It does want to be the only app on the OS, however. It uses an "allocate up to the maximum and never free" memory model, which means its not well suited to running on the same (virtual) box as your actual app. They should really get around to bolting on the Server Core kernel and distribute it as an OS.

    I suspect but cannot prove that pgsql and MySQL have improved dramatically, but both were utter shit when I last tried them (many years)

    Sqlite is a toy.



  • @Weng said:

    It uses an "allocate up to the maximum and never free"

    At least until you reconfigure its maximum usage amount lower than the default 2TB of RAM.

    But yes, the defaults are a bit of a hog (see also: Exchange, MySQL, ...)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Ah, but if you do that it won't ever allocate more. So you can't do memory utilization bursts.



  • ...has the topic always been "Which RMS is the least bad?" or did someone else edit it to remove the D just to be funny?

    Otherwise, I'm going to say any RMS whose last name isn't Stallman is less bad... not sure about least.



  • @powerlord said:

    someone else edit it to remove the D just to be funny?

    That.



  • lol... wow, I guess I really haven't looked at Express in a long time! Last I looked, SSMS was only available as part of the big-boy MSSQL tools, but I admit that was probably during the Bush administration.

    My bad. My penance shall be 10 lashes with a network cable while repeating "I will Google and double-check before I speak."



  • @powerlord said:

    remove the D just to be funny

    :giggity:



  • To be fair, most of those setups are on shared hosting with godaddy or similar, and phpmyadmin fits in just fine in that environment.



  • Anything with "express" in the name is bad. Just because what I'm doing may not be sucessfull, doesn't mean I wont throw a lot of data into it.

    Like, if I mess with GIS I may want to put the entire openstreetmap database in the thing. Or any other free datasource I want to do something.



  • @fbmac said:

    Like, if I mess with GIS I may want to put the entire openstreetmap database in the thing. Or any other free datasource I want to do something.

    Then SQL Express isn't the product for you.

    If you want to chuck lots of data at something you get the SQL Server trial which lasts 6 months, which is more than long enough to determine if you want to license the proper thing or not. They're a software company not a charity.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Ssms has always been in Express, but not in the Express redist. Visual Studio, which is the most common way for a developer to end up with Express only included the redist. Still that way, AFAIK.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    That's what Developer Edition is for. Nonproduction licensed Enterprise Edition.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @cheong said:

    MySQL used to be GPL...

    :wtf:

    It still is available under the terms of the GPLv2. http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/oem/#5



  • @izzion said:

    At least until you reconfigure its maximum usage amount lower than the default 2TB of RAM.

    You're better off not tinkering with it.

    From my experience, SQL Server is pretty good at managing its own memory if you leave it alone, even with other apps running on the same box. I've seen more than one SQL Server have major performance problems not because the defaults were bad, but because the admins tinkered with all sorts of shit to justify their paychecks.



  • @RichardTallent said:

    lol... wow, I guess I really haven't looked at Express in a long time! Last I looked, SSMS was only available as part of the big-boy MSSQL tools, but I admit that was probably during the Bush administration.

    SSMS was always available for the Express versions. I stand by parallel universe'n.

    EDIT:

    @Weng said:

    Ssms has always been in Express, but not in the Express redist.

    Ah, that might be the confusion here.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Weng said:

    Sqlite is a toy.

    It works really well for its intended purpose:

    Single-user, single-application, super portable storage that also happens to have an SQL interface. From the about page:

    "Think of SQLite not as a replacement for Oracle but as a replacement for fopen()"


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Ah, that might be the confusion here.

    The reasoning is that when you package SQL Express with a product, you don't usually want the customer fucking with it.

    The Visual Studio team, however, decided that they wouldn't bother asking nicely for a redistributable version of the management tools because the database stuff in VS would suffice. They, well, didn't know wtf they're talking about.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    In my videos thread, spamming it up with him being a dick.

    WHY ARE YOU STALKING ME?!?! Worse, @blakeyrat is a stalker who's accusing someone else of stalking to throw chaff so others will hopefully fail to notice he's not man enough to admit he was wrong.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @loopback0 said:

    Then SQL Express isn't the product for you.

    In addition to the reason you mentioned, SQL Express has (IIRC) a 10GB database size limit.

    BTW, my more reasoned response to the original question is that I recently needed SQL Server to install a demo of a commercial app to test some compatibility code I'd written. That app does not support SQL Express, but it will work with it, which was good enough for my purposes.

    I was a bit surprised that it wanted 2.5GB of RAM, not knowing the "wants to be the only app on the box" thing mentioned above. The little I used it, it seemed pretty nice, and I guess if I needed an industrial-strength DB and wasn't going to exceed the limits of the free version I would recommend it.



  • You mean, there is more than one RMS?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @fbmac said:

    You mean, there is more than one RMS?

    ...is one of the more notable ones. But...there are quite a few.


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