Sesame Credit





  • I'm not sure why he's so surprised that a dystopia should turn into a science fiction dystopia.



  • Oppressive governments oppress people. News at 11.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Oppressive governments oppress people. News at 11.

    In this case, the twist is that this will undoubtedly cause the citizenry--if that term is still appropriate--to oppress itself. Power is no longer a boot stomping on a human face, but a cute kitten pic doing it.



  • @FrostCat said:

    In this case, the twist is that this will undoubtedly cause the citizenry--if that term is still appropriate--to oppress itself.

    It's not like that never happened before...

    @FrostCat said:

    Power is no longer a boot stomping on a human face, but a cute kitten pic doing it.

    In the end, it's still a system that benefits obedience and punishes you for disobedience. People will or will not complain, but I doubt it's going to be any different than if it was a straightforward, non-gamified mechanism.



  • @FrostCat said:

    In this case, the twist is that this will undoubtedly cause the citizenry--if that term is still appropriate--to oppress itself. Power is no longer a boot stomping on a human face, but a cute kitten pic doing it.
    Makes you pine for days of the jackboot of despair.

    I'm actually quite interested to see how this experiment pans out. Will it be taken to like the drooling masses on xbox live or will you have despots like us who try to thwart it at every turn.

    What about people who learn the rules and abuse like we do in actual games?



  • @FrostCat said:

    Power is no longer a boot stomping on a human face, but a cute kitten pic doing it.

    “When fascism comes to America, it will not be in brown and black shirts. It will not be with jack-boots. It will be Nike sneakers and Smiley shirts. Smiley-smiley. Fascism—Germany lost the Second World War. Fascism won it. Believe me, my friend.”
    – George Carlin

    The Chi-Coms figured it out, too.



  • @DogsB said:

    What about people who learn the rules and abuse like we do in actual games?

    "Hmm, so if I post the Communist manifesto 20 times, I can keep my girlfriend and still not get sent to jail..."



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    ...but I doubt it's going to be any different than if it was a straightforward, non-gamified mechanism.

    Maybe. But when it's straight up "do it or we bill your family for the bullet" vs something that looks and feels voluntary and natural and almost kind of fun, it's less obvious that it's something you should be fighting against, I think.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    @DogsB said:
    What about people who learn the rules and abuse like we do in actual games?

    "Hmm, so if I post the Communist manifesto 20 times, I can keep my girlfriend and still not get sent to jail..."

    More like there was a sale on it and I bought 50 of them before a bean counter noticed.

    *edit on second thought they probably do have access to your kindle so reading it might be just as good.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    In the end, it's still a system that benefits obedience and punishes you for disobedience.

    The difference is in tiny details that don't matter to technical minds but are actually essential in exploiting human psychology and making this new totalitarian system work better than ever. If such system existed in Polish People's Republic, the Solidarity - an opposition group with about 10 million supporters - would never happen.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Maybe. But when it's straight up "do it or we bill your family for the bullet" vs something that looks and feels voluntary and natural and almost kind of fun, it's less obvious that it's something you should be fighting against, I think.

    But they're making it mandatory, and it has consequences. And people will either notice, or are going to be so stupid that the government wouldn't have much problem keeping them under control either way.

    @Gaska said:

    If such system existed in Polish People's Republic, the Solidarity - an opposition group with about 10 million supporters - would never happen.

    Like hell it wouldn't. In Poland, if it comes from the government, it's assumed evil.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    But they're making it mandatory, and it has consequences.

    But not right away. And at first, at least, it only seemingly confers benefits. And even if that's all it ever does, people will not want to be without the benefits. And the idea is to use peer pressure for enforcement.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And people will either notice, or are going to be so stupid that the government wouldn't have much problem keeping them under control either way.

    I'm not so sure. It's easy to be against something in principle, but when it makes the difference between making your life easier or better in lots of little ways, your principles might not be as important as you'd like to think.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    But they're making it mandatory, and it has consequences.

    So far, only positive consequences. Yes, the lack of positive consequence is the same thing as negative consequence, but it sounds completely different to the people. See the WoW example from the video.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Like hell it wouldn't. In Poland, if it comes from the government, it's assumed evil.

    Then tell me why people vote for what they consider evil? [spoiler]Hint: they don't.[/spoiler]



  • @boomzilla said:

    It's easy to be against something in principle, but when it makes the difference between making your life easier or better in lots of little ways, your principles might not be as important as you'd like to think.

    That's my point, sort of. And you don't need gamification for that. All you need to do is to offer privileges for being complacent, and either deny privileges or punish for not being complacent, and people will be complacent because they don't give a shit, but they want the carrot and they don't like the stick.

    And that's nothing new, we've figured it out years, if not centuries ago.

    @Gaska said:

    So far, only positive consequences. Yes, the lack of positive consequence is the same thing as negative consequence, but it sounds completely different to the people

    It matters fuckall whether they do it as "we offer 7 days of processing instead of the usual 30 if you're nice" or "we process in 7 days, but we'll make it 30 if you're naughty". That they can market is as the first and not as the second... well, that's nothing new either. No oppressive government touts a banner saying "we're an oppressive government".

    @Gaska said:

    Then tell me why people vote for what they consider evil? Hint: they don't.

    Puh-lease. We've turned "voting against" into an art.



  • Japan already has a story showing how bad that system is.



  • @DogsB said:

    despots like us who try to thwart it at every turn.

    You don't half talk some shite. Gamification creates self-reinforcing echo chambers, and this place, post-Discourse, is no different. Posting something that goes against the largely right-wing neoliberal groupthink will net you zero likes, playing to the crowd will have the sheep fighting each other to click the "like" button. The only difference here is that being given "likes" mean nothing beyond e-peen, but if it actually did mean something, there would be less people like me willing to call halfwitted cunts like you out on their self-congratulatory wankspeak.

    It's a brilliantly evil concept, and I'm sure governments of all colours the world over are drooling at the the very idea.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    And you don't need gamification for that.

    I don't think anyone says that you do. But it seems like one way to get there.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    And that's nothing new, we've figured it out years, if not centuries ago.

    What's new here is the way they're leveraging modern social media stuff. Justine Sacco could not be reached for comment.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    That they can market is as the first and not as the second... well, that's nothing new either. No oppressive government touts a banner saying "we're an oppressive government".

    Yeah, but they seem to have a way to rate you based on your social circle. Now you have an interest in keeping them in line and vice versa. Your friends are the enemy now, not the government.



  • @tufty said:

    Posting something that goes against the largely right-wing neoliberal groupthink will net you zero likes, playing to the crowd will have the sheep fighting each other to click the "like" button. The only difference here is that being given "likes" mean nothing beyond e-peen, but if it actually did mean something, there would be less people like me willing to call halfwitted cunts like you out on their self-congratulatory wankspeak.

    :wambulance:

    I made the same counter-rants on CS before the days of Likes and I'll keep making them post-Discourse. You're just not used to being around people who disagree with you and aren't afraid to say so.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Yeah, but they seem to have a way to rate you based on your social circle. Now you have an interest in keeping them in line and vice versa.

    And that's not something oppressive governments ever did? The technology wasn't quite there yet, sure, but they weren't beyond mass responsibility either.

    In Poland, if you didn't want to get in trouble, you'd shush people making political jokes too.



  • @boomzilla said:

    You're just not used to being around people who disagree with you and aren't afraid to say so.

    Nor are you...



  • @tufty said:

    Posting something that goes against the largely right-wing neoliberal groupthink will net you zero likes

    Hey @Polygeekery, we're right-wingers now.



  • @tufty said:

    You don't half talk some shite.
    My stock and trade

    @tufty said:

    Gamification creates self-reinforcing echo chambers, and this place, post-Discourse, is no different. Posting something that goes against the largely right-wing neoliberal groupthink will net you zero likes, playing to the crowd will have the sheep fighting each other to click the "like" button.
    Christ if only we didn't come to this community and stay because we have something in common with the lunatics that dwell there. Because that's what I do. I find a place with people I loath and spend 20% of my working day interacting with them.

    @tufty said:

    The only difference here is that being given "likes" mean nothing beyond e-peen, but if it actually did mean something, there would be less people like me willing to call halfwitted cunts like you out on their self-congratulatory wankspeak.
    Some of us use the like system because a like is easier than posting "gosh I like that" and reduces the clutter of +1! posts. What we're missing is a fuck you button that can be use simultaneously with the like button. I hate the fucking gamification and if there was anything other than nothing on the line I would of given up and fucked off or found a way to fuck with it. Thanks for tarring with a brush btw. Fuck you too.

    @tufty said:

    t's a brilliantly evil concept, and I'm sure governments of all colours the world over are drooling at the the very idea.
    +1



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    And that's not something oppressive governments ever did?

    Did they?

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    The technology wasn't quite there yet, sure, but they weren't beyond mass responsibility either.

    It seems very different to outsource the enforcement for free to the populace vs the secret police or whatever.



  • @tufty said:

    @boomzilla said:
    You're just not used to being around people who disagree with you and aren't afraid to say so.

    Nor are you...

    Most modern media is based on views that I disagree with. I can't go anywhere without being challenged. You really are sheltered.



  • The worst part of Gatchaman, but still Crowds. Dat soundtrack.



  • @boomzilla said:

    It seems very different to outsource the enforcement for free to the populace vs the secret police or whatever.

    But it's the same thing. You have a system (secret police/Facebook scraper) which punishes you for hanging out with bad element. People don't want to be punished, so they get proactive and try to prevent being punished by not hanging out with bad element, or telling the bad element not to behave so badly, because (the secret police will send us to gulags/the Facebook scraper will lower our ratings).

    Sure, maybe it'll be fun at first, but it'll quickly end up instilling the same fear any other such system would.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    But it's the same thing

    There are similarities, but if you're going to stick to that, we're going to disagree.



  • @boomzilla said:

    I can't go anywhere without being challenged.

    And so we find the real reason you work at home ....



  • @boomzilla said:

    we're going to disagree.

    BUT THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHT-WING NEOLIBERAL CIRCLEJERK


    Filed under: we're all bz's sockpuppets anyway so of course it makes sense



  • Does that mean I can go on the lawn now?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    BUT THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHT-WING NEOLIBERAL CIRCLEJERK

    Something something GAMIFICATION something Cunt! Something...Sea Lions!


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Hey @Polygeekery, we're right-wingers now.

    We are everything, to everyone, depending upon the argument they are making.



  • Wow. That is horrifying. A numeric score which controls every citizen's access to services, medical care, luxury goods or even food and housing.

    Just imagine if the [url=https://www.usa.gov/credit-reports]government of the USA tried anything like that[/url]. There would be [url=http://www.inc.com/peter-economy/the-remarkable-power-of-doing-absolutely-nothing.html]an immediate armed revolution[/url].



  • @DCRoss said:

    Wow. That is horrifying. A numeric score which controls every citizen's access to services, medical care, luxury goods or even food and housing.

    Just imagine if the [url=https://www.usa.gov/credit-reports]government of the USA tried anything like that[/url]. There would be [url=http://www.inc.com/peter-economy/the-remarkable-power-of-doing-absolutely-nothing.html]an immediate armed revolution[/url].

    Um. Are Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion part of the US government now?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    and people will be complacent because they don't give a shit, but they want the carrot and they don't like the stick.

    And that's nothing new, we've figured it out years, if not centuries ago.

    Right. But actually doing it this way is somewhat novel. The Soviets certainly didn't bother sugar-coating any of this; it was jackboots all the way.

    Now maybe some of that was they didn't have the luxuries to sugarcoat with, but still, they embraced the jackboot[1] with a vengeance.

    [1] the Communist leadership, taht is.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    everything, to everyone

    Everclear - Everything To Everyone – 03:29
    — SaffronCandi

    Come on now
    Do that stupid dance for me


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Rhywden said:

    Are Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion part of the US government now?

    Apparently not only are they, but have thrown out laws like EMTALA...sorry, I couldn't even get that last bit out with a straight face.



  • I mean, his own link included this statement:

    Credit reporting agencies are not operated by the government.



  • @FrostCat said:

    In this case, the twist is that this will undoubtedly cause the citizenry--if that term is still appropriate--to oppress itself.

    What "twist"? How do you think the Nazis found all those hidden Jews?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    When you get right down to it, if the people in charge of a given industry are all operating hand-in-glove with the government, practically speaking there's no effective difference between whatever that is called and socialism except for the dictionary definition. (and you can quibble about the boundaries, of course.)

    But one fairly large component of the USA's problem with health care, of course, is that EMTALA[1] means what he said is specifcally not true as far as that goes.

    [1] for furriners, furries, and people who CBA to look the acronym up, it basically means "you cannot be turned away from an emergency room even if you have no way of paying for service."


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    What "twist"? How do you think the Nazis found all those hidden Jews?

    I bet you they didn't primarily do it via whatever would've been the closest thing to "social media", because they didn't much feel the need to hide what they were doing (except for the wholesale slaughter part.)



  • Ok I don't get that but I didn't watch the video, so whatever.

    My real point is that what you called a "twist" is something that's happened before in oppressive governments.



  • And Yahoo!Alibaba , which runs the Sesame Credit system, isn't part of the Chinese government either. Go figure.

    And look, the constitution of the People's Republic of China clearly states that "[url=http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/Constitution/2007-11/15/content_1372964.htm]The State respects and preserves human rights[/url]", so I guess everything anybody has ever said about that must be wrong too.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Ok I don't get that but I didn't watch the video, so whatever.

    My real point is that what you called a "twist" is something that's happened before in oppressive governments.

    Well, I'm sure you're what passes for happy for you, having added so much value to the conversation.

    The difference here is by dressing it up in social media, it encourages people to want to do this out of fun, not out of fear. Had you watched the video you might have understood that. Assuming your Drax filter were temporarily turned off.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Most modern media is based on views that I disagree with. I can't go anywhere without being challenged. You really are sheltered.

    That makes us pretty much the same. Until you add to "modern media" pretty much the entire socio-political machine, and you get to where I live.



  • @FrostCat said:

    The difference here is by dressing it up in social media, it encourages people to want to do this out of fun, not out of fear.

    Well, if you snitched on your neighbour in the GDR then you'd get rewards. It's not as if all those people ratted on their neighbours because they were afraid. Granted, the scale is different. But the tactics have been used before.

    @DCRoss said:

    And Yahoo!Alibaba , which runs the Sesame Credit system, isn't part of the Chinese government either. Go figure.

    And look, the constitution of the People's Republic of China clearly states that "[url=http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/Constitution/2007-11/15/content_1372964.htm]The State respects and preserves human rights[/url]", so I guess everything anybody has ever said about that must be wrong too.

    The Tinfoil Hat is strong with you, young padawan!



  • @Rhywden said:

    The Tinfoil Hat is strong with you, young padawan!

    Just wait until you hear about the revolutionary desktop search application I wrote in Visual Basic. It stores everything in video format so that black ops agents won't be able to get at it.



  • @DCRoss said:

    @Rhywden said:
    The Tinfoil Hat is strong with you, young padawan!

    Just wait until you hear about the revolutionary desktop search application I wrote in Visual Basic. It stores everything in video format so that black ops agents won't be able to get at it.

    Because they'll literally be bored to death before they reach the end of it?



  • @FrostCat said:

    Had you watched the video you might have understood that.

    Fuck you. I'm at work and you didn't provide a synopsis.


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