Coding Horror with a keyboard?
-
Those people think it has some advantage
Nah, most USB keyboards can only support 6 simultaneously-pressed keys. IIRC it has to do with the fact that that's all the USB HID device driver supports, whereas PS/2 supports as many as you can press. To get n-key rollover in USB you have to implement your own device driver that uses a custom protocol to be able to pass "the user pressed these 7 keys".
That's what I vaguely remember from reading some blog posts about it.
-
They already refuse to put two distinct ones on the board
Surprisingly, there's a shitload of new motherboards that still have 2, judging from skimming the pictures at the list at Newegg, even on z170 chipsets. Go figure.
-
Bah, good luck finding definitive info. A number of sites say that USB keyboards generally don't have the hardware to detect more than a few simultaneous keys, to save $$$, although I thought that was more ghosting. This article says "USB protocol limitation - A max of 10 simultaneous key presses are recognized, 6 non-modifier keys ('w', 'a', 's', 'd', etc) + 4 modifier keys (Shift, Caps, Ctrl, etc).", although it is 5 years old.
-
There's also the polling interval in which PS/2 ha(s|d) a significantly (~10 ms) faster response time.
-
That is incompatible with you having PS/2 keyboards. One of the two statements is a lie.
here we just ordered a bunch of new systems for new hires (Business model desktops, not too powerful because they new hires are in sales) and they all came with brand new PS/2 keyboards and mice. Apparently it's an extra $75 to get USB models, and $75 a pop adds up when you need 50 of the things.
all of which were manufactured in 2014 and 2015 according to the serial numbers and manufacture dates embossed into the plastic right below a 4 letter brand name that rhymes with Hell
so there's that.
-
-
-
-
that was ROT1 and you gained an extra letter.
but good try,
-
@rc4 said:
@accalia said:
4 letter brand name that
rhymes withis HellROT+2 that first letter and you are there.
Oh, you mean this?
-
Oh, you mean this?
that's not even close to
CONCAT(ROT('B',+2), 'ell')are you sure you are even trying?
<a
-
Oh, now I get it. Dell Telephone Company. Hm! I've never heard of that one before.
-
Oh, now I get it. Dell Telephone Company. Hm! I've never heard of that one before.
that's also longer than the original specification of four letter brand names.
get with the program!
-
Dell Inc. is not 4 letters, either.
looks like I'm everywhere, too! at least in this topic...
-
Dell Inc. is not 4 letters,
oddly they leave the INC part off their brand name when they print it as a logo.
-
they all came with brand new PS/2 keyboards and mice. Apparently it's an extra $75 to get USB models, and $75 a pop adds up when you need 50 of the things.
I've not seen a new machine at this company which came with PS/2 peripherals in years.
edit: they're all HP or Lenovo though. The Lenovo stuff doesn't even have a single PS/2 port.
-
edit: they're all HP or Lenovo though. The Lenovo stuff doesn't even have a single PS/2 port.
i'd prefer HP honestly, but i'm not the one in charge of purchasing decisions.
i'm not even in charge of the hardware, i just sit next to the person who is and hear the expletives.
-
Apparently it's an extra $75 to get USB models, and $75 a pop adds up when you need 50 of the things.
I used to have a Dell rep when I worked IT Support, and that was back in 2007, and they sure as fuck didn't charge extra for USB back then. Someone's skimming off the top. Or you live in bumfuckville.
-
i'd prefer HP honestly, but i'm not the one in charge of purchasing decisions.
Me either.
I've ended up with 1 of each - 1 HP desktop and 1 Lenovo desktop.
My HP laptop was swapped out for an Apple laptop.
-
i'd prefer HP
As long as you don't mind a big fat fuck you if you have a problem with your computer.
Maybe the business department is better.
-
I used to have a Dell rep when I worked IT Support, and that was back in 2007, and they sure as fuck didn't charge extra for USB back then.
different rep, different deal? maybe they throw the USB in for free if you're big enough, or maybe they figured out they could charge $75 for a $5 keyboard/mouse and raise profits.Someone's skimming off the top.
also possible.Or you live in bumfuckville.
nope. I've never been inside prison, let alone lived there.
-
different rep, different deal? maybe they throw the USB in for free if you're big enough
The cheapest business desktop on the Dell UK website includes a USB keyboard and mouse
by default. That's ordering one.edit: You can't even choose anything else. You get them whether you want them or not.
-
As long as you don't mind a big fat fuck you if you have a problem with your computer.
well given i'm not going to be yelling at Dell if my computer has issues i don't care so much about the issues.
@A on the other hand, he cares and has been trying to get the business to move to a different manufacturer for years now. Beancounters haven't approved it yet.
I suggested he start charging departments every time he has to replace computers, then the beancounters will be getting the complaints from all sides and maybe something will change.
-
The cheapest business desktop on the Dell UK website includes a USB keyboard and mouse by default. That's ordering one.
that's also the consumer site, no?
dell has "for business" fomputers it sells consumer side for small businesses, and a Business department for actually selling B2B.
i assume the deals are different there.
either that or our rep is rooking us. that's also possible.
-
get the business to move to a different manufacturer
Tell him to not go Lenovo if it includes laptops.
We've already made the switch, but the desktop/laptop support teams are reporting significantly higher failure rates with the Lenovo laptops. That isn't the case with the Lenovo desktops.
-
Tell him to not go Lenovo if it includes laptops.
he's pushing for HP.
I suggested just switching anyway and getting a bunch of Dell logo stickers to place over the HP logos.
accounting would probably never notice.
-
that's also the consumer site, no?
It's the business bit of it.
i assume the deals are different there.
Not even Dell can be
enough to sell PS/2 keyboards to MLE customers and USB to SME.
-
I suggested just switching anyway and getting a bunch of Dell logo stickers to place over the HP logos.
he's pushing for HP.
HP laptops are a lot tougher (than Lenovo at least) which is important when they're given to the average user.
-
Not even Dell can be
enough to sell PS/2 keyboards to MLE customers and USB to SME.you say that now.
Seriously though. i wouldn't put it past them if they thought they could get away with it.
-
different rep, different deal? maybe they throw the USB in for free if you're big enough, or maybe they figured out they could charge $75 for a $5 keyboard/mouse and raise profits.
At the time I don't think they even had USB equipment in the price list. It was all USB by default. And this was, to repeat myself, 2007 time frame.
I'd believe it from another other PC maker, but Dell is the one I have experience with commercially and $75 for USB is dungcrap.
-
It was all USB by default. And this was, to repeat myself, 2007 time frame.
Not going to disagree with you that this was the case in 2007, nor with the fact that we possibly have a bad rep.
Still, that was over seven years ago and things change, It wouldn't surprise me that they did it to get higher profits, or that the salesrep is giving us suboptimal deals to raise their comission.
Either way, that's what we got sold.
-
Your procurement department need shooting if you're genuinely being told it's $75 for USB.
edit: the "you" in this is your company, not you personally.
-
I think it's more likely you be making shit up.
-
I think it's more likely you be making shit up.
think what you want, it does not change the truth.
as i've told you before what I say is true. and i resent most highly you calling me a liar when you disagree with me or find what i say hard to believe.
but then that's never stopped you, has it?
-
Oh and BTW - Dell UK (and I assume Dell Europe) don't even sell PS/2 keyboards.
Dell US only seem to list a Kensington PS/2 keyboard on their site and many Dell USB keyboards. For less.
-
If anything, they'd charge extra to get the PS/2 equipment. Since the USB stuff is the bog-standard cheapest-available option, and has been for like 7-8 years now.
Even if they did, though, it wouldn't be $75. Unless that was like a "lifetime charge" and not per-box. It makes no sense for Dell's business center to offer worse prices than you can get by just walking into a Best Buy.
Maybe, MAYBE, MAAAYBE whoever told you that misspoke and they meant an extra $75 for wireless keyboard and mouse. That's just BARELY in the realm of possibility.
-
There's also some misinformation further down on that page. X-key-rollover isn't limited by the USB connection or protocol, it's limited by the little CPU on the keyboard that takes the raw keypresses and converts them to the USB protocol. I don't believe there's any reason a USB keyboard couldn't have unlimited-key-rollover except that it would make it more expensive to manufacture. (Although it is a point that PS/2 keyboards get that "for free". More or less.)
It's far more complicated than that. The authors of the USB-HID spec allowed any set of keys to be transmitted but there are practical limitations in the implementation.- There's the electrical part of it: cheap keyboards will "short-circuit" the sensing grid so that the controller kan do nothing but raise an error.
- In small part the cost of the controller might matter, although a chip-on-board controller (a black blob) is cheap anyway and might be upgraded by the producer to a beefier model because general market demand makes that improved chip cheaper.
- There are differences in OS USB driver stacks where some simply won't accept more than 4 mods + 6 keys (mostly Mac OS X).
- There's the concern that BIOS or UEFI might have a broken USB-HID implementation which expects the keyboard to run in compatibility mode without ever asking the keyboard to run in such mode. Even high-end keyboard makers thus generally chose the safest solution by sticking to 4 mods + 6 keys.
- Finally there are the workarounds upon workarounds, for example a single keyboard emulating 2 keyboards (one in compatiblity mode, one sending keys 7 to 20-something). Some games bypassing parts of the OS keyboard input API will get mighty confused by this.
-
more than 4 mods + 6 keys (mostly Mac OS X).
Keyboards not accepting more presses than I have fingers? OH THE HORROR.
-
But then the computer cannot detect when you slam your hand (or head) on the keyboard!
-
@accalia said:
get the business to move to a different manufacturer
Tell him to not go Lenovo if it includes laptops.
We've already made the switch, but the desktop/laptop support teams are reporting significantly higher failure rates with the Lenovo laptops. That isn't the case with the Lenovo desktops.Lenovo is nice and all, but I will never buy another one of their systems ever since the security gaffe with the fucking rootkit in the BIOS. This would be an especially big issue for an enterprise customer as it's a huge and difficult-to-remove security hole. If this hadn't happened, I would have recommended we switch to Lenovo for our updated hardware standards.
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306 for more info on the rootkit.
-
And anyway, a Corsair K70 isn't horribly expensive, and you can have whichever key switch type you want, even full blakey-enraging blue. I'm quite satisfied with red.
-
Dumb question - why can't keyboards be at least as good as gamepads in terms of pushing all the buttons at once and with low delay?
-
6 simultaneously-pressed keys. IIRC it has to do with the fact that that's all the USB HID device driver supports
Actually, that's incorrect. It's perfectly possible to do full NKRO with stock USB HID, no drivers required. Unfortunately, it's not obvious how to do it, and so it requires "work", which manufacturers are loath to do. Even more liable to cause "not doing it", it also requires diodes on every keyswitch, which costs more money than not having diodes on every keyswitch and simply putting up with the ghosting.PS/2 might be marginally faster, depending on USB host implementation. It's unlikely to be noticeable, even for the most twitch gamer.
Most mechanical keyboards are shite anyhow. The exceptions are Matias' Quiet Pro, and the eponymous Model M, still available new direct from Unicomp without having to go through any sort of specialist reseller. And even those have a crap layout.
-
Actually, that's incorrect.
What, not enough "IIRC"s in my post?
it requires "work", which manufacturers are loath to do
But I got this right!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEcnttsjn6o&t=21Most mechanical keyboards are shite anyhow.
The Cooler Master 70% I use at work is far better than the stock Dell POSes.
-
Paying more than $20 for a keyboard is TRWTF
-
PS/2 might be marginally faster, depending on USB host implementation. It's unlikely to be noticeable, even for the most twitch gamer.
What's definitely equally important is that the key debouncing needs to be able to keep up with the typist. I remember that a few years back some keyboard's firmware would skip letters when typing more than 80 wps. The manufacturer had to issue a new version with a smaller polling interval to get it fixed.@tufty said:
Most mechanical keyboards are shite anyhow. The exceptions are Matias' Quiet Pro, and the eponymous Model M, still available new direct from Unicomp without having to go through any sort of specialist reseller. And even those have a crap layout.
The model M is only 2KRO though and prone to internal damage. The new stuff isn't also what it used to be as I heard that the production machinery is wearing out.
-
Paying more than $20 for a keyboard is TRWTF
It is if you buy a display and mouse which only cost $20.
-
Paying more than $20 for a keyboard is TRWTF
I used to wear out a $15 - 30 rubber-dome keyboard about once a year. Then I spent ~$100 for a mechanical and 5 years later it works just as well as the day I got it.
-
Eh, I used to think that about keyboards and mice.
And then I broke down and got a Razer Naga. And you know what, instead of my $15 mouse that got mushy within a few months and completely lost the left mouse button within 18 months at the most... the Naga is pushing 3 years and still has more or less the same response pattern as when I bought it. Plus the extra buttons and so forth.
So when the coating on my keyboard started wearing thin and I got tired of the mushy chiclets, I got a Black Widow mechanical (USB) keyboard for a replacement. NB: it's loud as hell, though apparently they make keyboards with quieter switches but still most of the rest of the "benefits" of the mechanical switches. And it might just be placebo effect, but I can feel a difference between how this keyboard types versus a typical $20 chiclet keyboard, and it's a lot more convenient for "rapid response" situations (e.g. MOBA gaming with the keyboard, where being able to rest your finger just short of the break point can improve your reaction time to casting a skill.)
So, yeah. I guess if paying more than $20 for a keyboard is TRWTF, then I'll wear my scarlet letters with pride...
-
it's loud as hell, though apparently they make keyboards with quieter switches
I'm a fan of the so-called "Brown" switches. They are not much louder than a normal mushy keyboard so they're office safe, but you get all the benefits of a mechanical.
At home I have "Blue" switches. Good thing I live alone because they sound like someone pressing typewriter keys using the tip of a jackhammer. If I had to replace that one I'd switch to Browns.
