Break the brakes


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    FTFY. Slipping slightly on tarmac means you're working against shearing of the rubber. Slipping slightly on ice or snow isn't the same at all.

    In deep snow you are slipping against the displacement of the snow. Instead of rolling over it, you start to push some also.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    No, the pendantry is in the bit where it says "On a dry road". Woops.

    You said that:

    @anotherusername said:

    To achieve maximum braking force, none of the wheels can be slipping... a slipping wheel has significantly less traction (kinetic friction vs. static friction) than a wheel that isn't slipping, and therefore provides significantly less braking power.



  • No I didn't. In this case, the pendantry is in the bit where it says "anotherusername"



  • @Polygeekery said:

    @Dragoon said:
    That is not strictly true:1) the coefficient of friction is not guaranteed to be the same underneath all of the tires2) the angle of momentum is not necessarily in alignment with the direction of rotation

    You have out pendanted me. You are correct, but in my example those were assumed to be true.

    He was trying to say basically the same thing as I just tried to say. If you're driving on poor road conditions, the coefficient of friction is virtually guaranteed to not be the same underneath all the tires. If your examples assumed otherwise, that would certainly explain why all of your examples are wrong.

    @Polygeekery said:

    would you say in an absolute manner that 4WD does not help braking at all.

    4WD does not help braking at all if you have ABS. Maybe, if your vehicle doesn't have ABS, 4WD might give you some benefit in certain specific situations. Still less benefit and less broad range of situations than ABS is designed to give you, though.

    @Polygeekery said:

    Meh, the concept is much the same. I just picked one that was talking about slip angle in particular.

    No, it's NOT. Slipping slightly sideways deforms the rubber sideways, makes your tires slightly wider, and gives you more traction because there's more contact with the road. Slipping in the direction your vehicle is traveling does not yield that benefit or anything remotely close to it. And like @tufty says, it really only benefits you if you're driving on a nice solid pavement.

    @Polygeekery said:

    @anotherusername said:
    To achieve maximum braking force, none of the wheels can be slipping... a slipping wheel has significantly less traction

    Which is false.

    If you had said "sliding", you would have been correct.

    Please, oh enlightened one, what is the difference between "slipping" and "sliding"? I have been using them interchangeably, for the most part.

    And make sure it's a difference that makes me wrong, because the difference I found would make me right and you wrong.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Listen very carefully: In deep snow, or on ice, 4WD keeps all of the wheels turning at the same rate. That allows you to stop straight, and it helps to prevent wheels from locking by distributing excess braking force before a wheel has a chance to lock.I realize you don't know shit about cars or drivetrains, so you are unable to see the distinction there, but there is one.

    And this is different (as in: better than) from ABS exactly how? See, you're ranting and raving while being unable to answer the fucking question.

    I understand the concept just fine - it's just that you're dodging giving a straight answer. Just to make it clear: Which advantage exactly does a 4WD pose over an ABS system when it comes to braking under slippery conditions?

    That was my question to which, up-to-date, you still haven't given a fucking answer.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Rhywden said:

    And this is different (as in: better than) from ABS exactly how? See, you're ranting and raving while being unable to answer the fucking question.

    You are the one asking a question, for a statement that has never been said. Why do you think that I need to answer for a statement that I never made?



  • @Polygeekery said:

    @Rhywden said:
    And this is different (as in: better than) from ABS exactly how? See, you're ranting and raving while being unable to answer the fucking question.

    You are the one asking a question, for a statement that has never been said. Why do you think that I need to answer for a statement that I never made?

    You are the one who stated that it "helps with braking". As ABS does fulfill the exact same role (and probably even better due to the unlocked differential) I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us why that should make any difference.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Rhywden said:

    You are the one who stated that it "helps with braking".

    Yes, I did. Full-stop. I never made any statements with regards to efficacy in relation to other technologies. I just scanned back over the entire thread to see if I had.

    @Rhywden said:

    As ABS does fulfill the exact same role (and probably even better due to the unlocked differential) I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us why that should make any difference.

    Alright, I am done. If retards keep asking questions about statements that I never made I will bow out.

    Especially if they don't even know enough to know why this was such a silly question:

    @Rhywden said:

    In which universe are brakes connected to the axles or the driveshaft?



  • Yes, yes, you're such an epitome of intelligence.

    I told you what I meant by that. Not my fault if you're incapable of reading it.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Rhywden said:

    Yes, yes, you're such an epitome of intelligence.

    Enough to realize that every single passenger vehicle I can think of has the brakes attached to the axles. ;)

    Where do you think they are at?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Rhywden said:

    I told you what I meant by that. Not my fault if you're incapable of reading it.

    I never saw it. I am also incapable of thinking of anything that would resolve this question to something that makes sense:

    @Rhywden said:

    In which universe are brakes connected to the axles or the driveshaft?



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Listen very carefully: In deep snow, or on ice, 4WD keeps all of the wheels turning at the same rate. That allows you to stop straight, and it helps to prevent wheels from locking by distributing excess braking force before a wheel has a chance to lock.

    You just keep saying this over and over again as if it is an explanation. I can change a few words and make it about ABS:

    In deep snow, or on ice, ABS keeps all of the wheels from skidding. That allows you to stop straight, and it helps to prevent wheels from locking by momentarily reducing braking force before a wheel has a chance to lock.
    You're entire argument has been "4WD helps with braking because 4WD helps with braking". Sure, Consumer Reports isn't a perfect source, but they are generally competent. At least they did *some* testing. You've got nothing. No source, no testing, no facts, no corroboration at all.

  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    You're entire argument has been "4WD helps with braking because 4WD helps with braking".

    No, in fact you quoted my argument right before this:

    @Polygeekery said:

    In deep snow, or on ice, 4WD keeps all of the wheels turning at the same rate. That allows you to stop straight, and it helps to prevent wheels from locking by distributing excess braking force before a wheel has a chance to lock.



  • That's not an argument that leads to the conclusion that 4WD vehicles stop better than average since all new cars since 2012 and the majority of cars on the road have ABS. At best, the phenomenon you describe works as well as ABS if you are going in a perfectly straight line. If you are turning at all, then the same phenomenon will force at least one of the tires to slip at all times.

    Therefore, your paragraph can only be used to conclude that 4WD may provide a braking advantage over a crappy car from last century, but only if you are going perfectly straight.

    On the other hand, putting $600 worth the snow tires on the worst vehicle will make it better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tires.

    List of things you should do to your vehicle to prepare for snow (in order of priority):

    1. Install snow tires. (This will help keep you out of ditches and from getting into accidents)
    2. Trade it in for a vehicle with ABS. (This will help keep you out of ditches and from getting into accidents, but not as much as #1)
    3. Trade it in for a vehicle with traction control. (This will help keep you out of ditches and from getting into accidents, but not as much as #2)
    4. Keep gloves and a blanket in the trunk. (This will help keep you from losing fingers and/or toes if you ever get stuck in a remote area in the cold)
    5. Trade it in for a vehicle with AWD/4WD. (This will keep you from having to pay $50 for a tow truck because you got stuck at the end of your driveway since you are too lazy to shovel the snow the plow piled up there. Not exactly life-and-death stuff)

    BTW, I live in Buffalo, NY and I have built a car from the ground up. I know about both cars and snow.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    On the other hand, putting $600 worth the snow tires on the worst vehicle will make it better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tires.

    There you go, making absolutely idiotic, absolute statements again.



  • Since you seem to put such a high value on anecdotes, here's one for you:

    I drove a 470HP rear-wheel-drive Dodge Challenger for four Buffalo winters on snow tires. That car handled the snow better than my 4WD Dodge RAM 1500 and my wife's Civic.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Perhaps, but you said:

    @Jaime said:

    putting $600 worth the snow tires on the worst vehicle will make it better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tires.

    So you have this with snow tires:

    http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000664791/polls_ChickWheels20_0903_603460_poll_xlarge.jpeg

    Or this with A/T tires:

    http://www.landroverusa.com/Images/L550_15_EXT_LOC30_BP_04_dfc_293-108435_1216x684.jpg?v=4

    Which one are you going to choose?


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    Actually, I want to get more pendantic. Since you said snow tires will make any vehicle better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tires, I can do better.

    You have this vehicle with a snow tire:

    And this vehicle without snow tires:

    Which one handles better in snow? What's your choice for a tough Buffalo winter? ;)



  • Only one of those is road legal.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    Which one are you going to choose?

    The Discovery Sport is stupid, so I'd pick a proper Discovery.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    Only one of those is road legal.

    So? That is not necessary in order to provide examples that falsify his statement. But if it makes you feel better, replace the bubble car with a Yugo and pit it against the Land Rover.

    Edit: The Peel bubble car is road legal. It is essentially a motor scooter according to US law, and is certainly road legal in the UK where it is from.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    Only one of those is road legal.

    And, just to be pendantic, in the Michigan U.P., snowmobiles are road legal for a good part of the winter. There are restrictions pertaining to track stud length, etc, to make sure the asphalt is not damaged. But if you have a proper plate and insurance that would be as road legal as a motorcycle is in the summertime.

    There are hundreds of counter-examples that falsify his statement. If not more.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @loopback0 said:

    The Discovery Sport is stupid, so I'd pick a proper Discovery.

    Not a bubble car with snow tires?!?!

    -le gasp-


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    Not a bubble car with snow tires?!?!

    Well how the fuck would I get a roof box on that? ;)


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @loopback0 said:

    Well how the fuck would I get a roof box on that? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    This group is always :moving_goal_post:! ;)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    But if you have a proper plate and insurance that would be as road legal as a motorcycle is in the summertime.

    I'd imagine there are tons of regulations for road use that a snowcat doesn't meet.
    A snowmobile, sure, but not a snowcat.

    Besides - this looks way more fun:


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @loopback0 said:

    I'd imagine there are tons of regulations for road use that a snowcat doesn't meet.

    Meh, snowmobiles aren't road legal where I live. But, I have a friend that I go up to the Michigan U.P. with and a few years ago we were at his place outside our city when we got 10+" of snow overnight. The next morning we got out the snowmobiles. My wife asked if it was legal to ride on the roads and his response was, "Well, not really, but the police drive Chargers and we're on snowmobiles, so it's one of those 'legal by default situations'."



  • And a snowcat still isn't a snowmobile.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    And a snowcat still isn't a snowmobile.

    I am failing to see your point.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Polygeekery said:

    "Well, not really, but the police drive Chargers and we're on snowmobiles, so it's one of those 'legal by default situations'.

    ๐Ÿ˜†



  • You're failing to see any point.

    You claimed : Driving with difflock engaged on snow helps braking. It demonstrably doesn't, and in fact actively hinders braking.

    Jaime said putting $600 worth of snow tyres on the worst vehicle will make it better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tyres. Yes, he probably should have specified 4 wheeled normal road vehicle, what with all the pendantic dickweedery that goes on over here, but hey, we'll let it slide. Yes, pun intended.

    You responded with a unicycle and a snowcat. I pointed out that only one of those is legal on the road, and you went off on something about snowmobiles. Which, by your own admission, aren't actually road legal either, but are somewhat closer than a snowcat.

    Here's some anecdata, though. For several years, I drove to work with a Citrรถen BX. This is, arguably, the worst vehicle for driving in the snow (although the lifty-uppy suspension does make it possible to get over the pile of snow the plough leaves on the edge of the carpark if you're feeling lazy). Why is it the worst? 2WD, long, no ABS, underweighted in the rear (thus a heavy tendency to slide out the rear in the corners), and hand brake on the front wheels. Oh, and the doors freeze open, so as soon as the temperatures drop below -10C you drive everywhere with an elastic strap between the front doors, and they still swing open in every corner. At the time, I was even poorer than I am now, and could only afford to put new snow tyres on the front. No studs allowed over here, either, and I wasn't putting anywhere near $600 on the car - in fact, under $60 as my "new" tyres were actually retreads. But still, the only time it went off the road was when a spinning out-of-control Landrover pushed it off. I don't know if he had the diff lock engaged, but he didn't have snow tyres.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    The Raptor Trax is road legal, snowmobiles are road legal, the snowcat would likely be road legal in a limited sense if you have a SMV sign on it. The unicycle is road legal (except for the interstate, etc), the bubble car is road legal.

    They are all vehicles.

    I also have a bit of anecdata in that I have never bought snow tires for my vehicle. I do live in a metropolitan area, but our neighborhoods are the last to get plowed, if they ever do. I have never been stuck, never slid off the road, etc. It never even bothers me to go out when they declare a "snow emergency" (which basically means that if you go out on the roads and slide off, you will be ticketed unless it is an emergency).

    Do snow tires help? Absolutely. Are they necessary? Meh, not with 4WD. Not for me. Not worth the expense. Not worth storing away 8 months of the year.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    But still, the only time it went off the road was when a spinning out-of-control Landrover pushed it off. I don't know if he had the diff lock engaged, but he didn't have snow tyres.

    4WD is not magic. You can still spin, etc. The difference between you in a Citroen, and that guy in a Land Rover is the driver, not the car. Not necessarily the tires either.

    Or maybe just a bad bit of luck on his part? Don't know, wasn't there.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    the snowcat would likely be road legal in a limited sense if you have a SMV sign on it

    Obviously your regulations may differ, but a snowcat is absolutely not road legal here; it can only be used on a closed road (even by the emergency services) or transported on a tank transporter.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @tufty said:

    Obviously your regulations may differ, but a snowcat is absolutely not road legal here;

    Why not?

    Here in the US, (local regulations vary of course), but virtually everything is legal to drive on the road if even in a limited fashion. We used to transport Cat 637 scrapers from jobsite to jobsite by attaching magnetic SMV signs and driving them down the street. 100% legally. We have also transported rubber-tracked tractors the same way.

    Admittedly, if you drove them to work everyday you would likely end up in a fair bit of trouble, but they are still "road legal" in the same way that farm tractors and etc are.

    That would depend on the tracks on them of course. If the steel grousers contact the pavement, probably not legal to drive on the road. With recessed grousers, I would not see an issue.

    And snowmobiles are 100% legal in certain parts of the US during the winter.


  • BINNED

    @Polygeekery said:

    Well, you don't sunbathe in that weather, that is for certain. But life has to go on.

    Or you can move somewhere habitable. ๐ŸšŽ


  • Grade A Premium Asshole



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Do snow tires help? Absolutely. Are they necessary? Meh, not with 4WD.

    You are an idiot. Choosing 4WD over snow tires for a daily driver is not a sensible choice. The Consumer Reports article I linked to did some reasonable testing and the biggest conclusion they came to: no matter what you drive, if it snows where you live, you should buy snow tires before considering anything else, because they provide the most safety for the buck. Their second conclusion was that there was some correlation between "4WD vehicle" and "vehicles that are good in snow", but it was almost certainly not causation.

    I am not using Consumer Reports as the only source of information. Here are the first five links that came up for me when I Googled "does 4wd help in snow":

    Link 1
    Link 2
    Link 3
    Link 4
    Link 5

    All of them say exactly the same thing that Consumer Reports did.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    You are an idiot. Choosing 4WD over snow tires for a daily driver is not a sensible choice.

    I already have 4WD. I don't have snow tires. 4WD is a sunk cost, and perfectly adequate. You may need snow tires to keep you from careening off the road in a fiery blaze. I don't.



  • With 4WD, you are no less likely than the driver of an average car to get into a snow-related accident. You are less likely than the driver of an average car to get stuck in your driveway and be late for work.

    Your 4WD provides no safety benefits in snow. It is not "perfectly adequate", it is "completely irrelevant". There's a reason why insurance companies give discounts for ABS and traction control, but not for 4WD.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    All of them say exactly the same thing that Consumer Reports did.

    Really? You apparently took a course on "Weblinks for prove your point" from the @Fox with 743 degrees.

    First link:

    Similarly, if you live in places where it rains or snows for many months out of the year, AWD or 4WD should be high on your list of "must-have" car options.

    First, fucking, link. Pardon me if I don't read the rest of them.



  • You've got some seriously advanced selective reading skills. From the same article:

    Is AWD that much safer and thereby worth the roughly $2,000 premium these vehicles command?

    The short answer is this: AWD and 4WD help a vehicle accelerate in slippery conditions, but don't aid with braking and only sometimes improve handling.

    Improves Dry Handling: This only applies to AWD vehicles with torque vectoring. The AWD version of the 2013 Acura TL is one example. Acura's "Super Handling All Wheel Drive" (SH-AWD) distributes torque to all four wheels, using a pair of electromagnetic clutches to freely regulate torque distribution between the rear wheels. This system is one of the rare cases when AWD can help with cornering.
    False Sense of Security: It is easy to be lured by an automaker's advertising and think that having AWD means you can drive in the snow or rain as easily as you would in dry conditions. But the truth is that AWD and 4WD help only with acceleration and traction. Braking distances and handling will be the same as with the 2WD vehicle.

    ... and finally ...

    Focus on Good Tires Ultimately, your vehicle's tires can be more important than the number of wheels being driven.

  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    You've got some seriously advanced selective reading skills.

    You certainly have some nerve to make such a statement, as you have been trying to get me to defend arguments that I never made. ;)



  • You said 4WD helps with braking.

    @Polygeekery said:

    Listen very carefully: In deep snow, or on ice, 4WD keeps all of the wheels turning at the same rate. That allows you to stop straight, and it helps to prevent wheels from locking by distributing excess braking force before a wheel has a chance to lock.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    The article you quoted won't be using 4WD to mean "diffs always locks so all wheels must turn at the same rate" which @PolyGeekery is.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    You said 4WD helps with braking.

    Yes I did. Now, go find where I said that it is better than: ABS, snow tires or that it magically changes the equations relating to coefficients of friction.

    I only said that it helps with braking. The point is one of pendantry. It does distribute braking load.

    But, I can easily find where you said that:

    @Jaime said:

    On the other hand, putting $600 worth the snow tires on the worst vehicle will make it better in the snow than any vehicle without snow tires.

    Which is an idiotic statement due to how absolute it is in its declaration.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @loopback0 said:

    The article you quoted won't be using 4WD to mean "diffs always locks so all wheels must turn at the same rate" which @PolyGeekery is.

    Also yes. But beyond that, people in this thread seem to think that all drivetrain disengages and your vehicle goes free-wheel once you touch the brake pedal. Also, at least one person in this thread thinks that brakes are on the roof of the car or something.



  • @Polygeekery said:

    Yes I did. Now, go find where I said that it is better than: ABS, snow tires or that it magically changes the equations relating to coefficients of friction.

    It has to be better than ABS in order to actually qualify as "helps with braking" since every normal road vehicle your compare it to will have ABS.

    As for snow tires, they actually do raise the coefficient of fiction. Since 4WD doesn't, it won't provide the same benefit that a simple set of snow tires will. And, snow tires will provide benefits in acceleration, braking, and turning, while 4WD only help with acceleration.


  • Grade A Premium Asshole

    @Jaime said:

    It has to be better than ABS in order to actually qualify as "helps with braking" since every normal road vehicle your compare it to will have ABS.

    No it doesn't.

    @Jaime said:

    As for snow tires, they actually do raise the coefficient of fiction.

    Never said they didn't. That is the only point of snow tires.

    @Jaime said:

    Since 4WD doesn't, it won't provide the same benefit that a simple set of snow tires will.

    I still prefer the 4WD, it allows me to keep moving when the cars with snow tires are stuck in the garage. In an ideal world, I suppose it would be 4WD with snow tires, but I have never found them necessary. You need them to keep you from careening off the road in a fiery blaze every time there is a flurry, and that is fine. No worries.

    @Jaime said:

    And, snow tires will provide benefits in acceleration, braking, and turning, while 4WD only help with acceleration.

    I see that shit about turning all the time, and I do not agree with that one, in the slightest. Ever seen a RWD car stuck in a parking lot going straight backwards and forwards despite turning their wheels every which way? I have. I have driven around them, in a wide arc, to get to my parking spot, able to maneuver as such because my front wheels are pulling. My 4WD is also a hell of a lot less "tail-happy" than FWD vehicles that I have driven that could have possibly done better in aforementioned parking lot scenario.

    TL;DR, if your front wheels aren't pulling, you aren't steering.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election Banned

    @Jaime said:

    You've got some seriously advanced selective reading skills

    Can confirm. This right here is the primary reason I am the spoonholder.


Log in to reply