Broken UEFIs and GPT


  • BINNED

    Continuing the discussion from The Waterloo Dark Ale Status Thread:

    @accalia said:

    @cartman82 said:
    Quick question: what's the latest wisdom on this?

    Linux only: GPT

    Windows only and < 2TB MBR

    Windows < 7: Why are you still running that? ... fine.... MBR as GPT support is sketchy.

    Windows >= 7: GPT, but be warned that you can't boot off of it unless running UEFI (unless M$ fixed that?)

    Speaking of... I have a problem to solve this weekend, might as well ask here as well, Google was unhelpful so far anyway.

    A friend just bought a new 3TB drive. We wanted to install Windows 7 on it (don't look at me, I didn't make that decision). Now, of course, the disk has to be GPT-partitioned in order to use full capacity.

    The problem? The freaking board won't detect a single bootable device when switched to UEFI mode. None of the drives show up, neither SATA nor USB.

    The board in question is Intel DH77KC. My only hope is that the latest UEFI is bugged and that I can downgrade. Failing that, is there some trickery I could accomplish using GRUB or something similar?


  • SockDev

    @Onyx said:

    Failing that, is there some trickery I could accomplish using GRUB or something similar?

    assuming you can get GRUB to boot in UEFI mode.... yeah there probably is. it is the GRand Unified Bootloader afterall.

    I've gotten it to triple boot windows before while making sure that none of the windows installs were aware of the others (by tricking them into thinking the other windows partitions were Linux partitions) so there's probably something you can do about that.

    The otehr option is to get a small HDD for like $20 and boot off that in MBR mode and have the 3TB drive as a data drive.

    then you can play around with junction to redirect stuff like C:\Program Files and C:\Program Files x86 and C:\Users to somewhere on the 3TB drive.... :-D



  • My Thinkpads Tx20's (have two of them) have this deficiency that they can't boot from media with hybrid partition tables at all: BIOS compatibility mode sees GPT structures and refuses to boot that, and UEFI sees MBR structures and refuses to boot from that.

    I suspect the very approach to this is very, very much fucked up.

    Well I don't complain much as they both run pure UEFI/GPT + OS X...



  • @accalia said:

    assuming you can get GRUB to boot in UEFI mode.... yeah there probably is. it is the GRand Unified Bootloader afterall.
    grub2-efi is the answer.

    You also have gummiboot which is not as grand but is very simple and small (and it probably wants your kernel/initrd on your ESP).


  • SockDev

    @wft said:

    grub2-efi is the answer.

    hmm... that was what i was thinking of, i havent gotten much luck with that, but then the only device i really gave any effort to UEFI+GPT boot was an Intel NUC and since the SSD was only 500GB i gave up after the third time i hardlocked the BIOS and had to use the jumper pins to reset and just did BOIS/MBR boot.

    the Intel NUC boxen apparently do NOT like to boot UEFI with bootloaders that are not M$ signed... I can't for the life of me think why.... </sarcasm>


  • BINNED

    So, just to make sure: if I can't get the damned thing to recognize any media when using UEFI boot, I should be able to partition the drive using a live CD and install grub2-efi in legacy boot mode and then use that to convince Windows to boot off GPT?

    I know how to get Linux booting from GPT by manually messing with the partitions, I'm just not sure about how the Windows chainloading part.


  • SockDev

    @Onyx said:

    So, just to make sure: if I can't get the damned thing to recognize any media when using UEFI boot,

    that would make it harder to actually boot. the BIOS will need to recognize that the HDD and live CD are there in UEFI mode or you don't have a hope of it working.

    :-(


  • BINNED

    If it were recognizing them right now I'd just install Windows and be done with it.

    Just to clarify: it sees all the devices. But refuses to detect any of them as something to boot from. And I'm not talking about the bootable flag - if I go to the boot order screen there is nothing when I turn legacy boot fallback off.



  • First, you are better off just booting installation media and installing your distro from its stock installer. The latest Ubuntu and Fedora both do the Right Thing™. If you have anything else these days, I really pity you. Just bite the bullet and forgo your sentiments for ðe olden days of GNOME2 or what have you.

    Otherwise you might want to look into gummiboot (afaik fully supported in Fedora, as it's a Pöttering's invention), because GRUB under EFI wants a biosblock partition for some reason and is otherwise a heavyweight beast (I can't wait for them to port Emacs to it). Also, make sure you have a pure GPT without any MBR structures whatsoever (gdisk can delete them for you). I was bitten by this when hackintoshing — OS X would boot from hybrid partitions, but UEFI wouldn't let it.


  • BINNED

    @wft said:

    If you have anything else these days, I really pity you.

    Debian. Because Ubuntu is full of bloat, Mint is stuck on using the old Ubuntu base and I can't stand RHEL-oids. Something about them just rubs me the wrong way.

    But that's really beside the point. This is not my machine and I need Windows to boot. I mentioned the manual tweaking of partitions mostly as a statement of "I'm not afraid of tinkering with it".


  • SockDev

    @wft said:

    Also, make sure you have a pure GPT without any MBR structures whatsoever (gdisk can delete them for you).

    this could very well be your problem.

    #> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda bs=4096 count=10
    #> parted /dev/hda
    

    substiturte parted with your partition editor of choice.


  • BINNED

    hda? Excuse me, are you from the past? :stuck_out_tongue:

    Also, if you think that's the problem in my case... I can wipe any MBR from the disk, that's no problem. What do I use to make a bootable Win7 USB drive though? I'm pretty sure all the tools format it to MBR...



  • @Onyx said:

    Debian. Because Ubuntu is full of bloat, Mint is stuck on using the old Ubuntu base and I can't stand RHEL-oids. Something about them just rubs me the wrong way.

    (shrugs) I disliked them, too (Debian's /etc structure and update-* utilities are way saner, for starters), but RPM features are really good (if you're on advanced tinkering terms with it), systemd actually works all the time, and the latest GNOME3 rubs me the right way. Overall, I have the impression of Fedora becoming more and more well-thought-over, no-bullshit system for everyday use, and not something where not only you can tinker for fun and profit, but must to get even the basics done. Even better than Ubuntu (why? I can get GNOME3 on Ubuntu, and I can't get Unity on Fedora).

    That is, since they hired some good UX designers, and since these designers gained some real expertise. I wouldn't touch FC8, for example, with a bargepole.

    Anyway. You want Windows only there? Which version?


  • SockDev

    @Onyx said:

    hda? Excuse me, are you from the past? :stuck_out_tongue:

    no, it's still my habit to give instructions like that. on a new computer you are very unlikely to have /dev/hda so if you just C&P without thinking it's not likely to cause much harm.... :-P


  • BINNED

    @wft said:

    systemd actually works all the time

    Debian 8 has systemd by default. Works fine, even if you just upgraded from 7. The whole procedure was painless, really.

    @wft said:

    Anyway. You want Windows only there? Which version?

    7. I recommended 10 but was denied. Don't think it would make much of a difference anyway, I'm pretty sure the MoBo is the culprit here.



  • Can't you make it all-legacy from all-MBR disk then?



  • @Onyx said:

    Debian 8 has systemd by default.

    Fedora is pure systemd without sysv-rc wrappers I dislike intensely. Mind you, I have two Debian servers with sid in them, so I kinda know what I'm talking about. :)


  • BINNED

    It's a 3TB disk. So unless I want to throw away ~780GiB of space, no.


  • SockDev

    @Onyx said:

    It's a 3TB disk. So unless I want to throw away ~780GiB of space, no.

    there's always #2p3-4 as an option.



  • @wft said:

    Mind you, I have two Debian servers with sid in them, so I kinda know what I'm talking about.

    I take it you like living dangerously?

    I've used Debian sid in the past. It's really fun when the package maintainers fuck up and put out packages that have conflicting dependencies. You generally won't run into that in testing or stable, but in unstable / sid, all bets are off.



  • @accalia said:

    The otehr option is to get a small HDD for like $20 and boot off that in MBR mode and have the 3TB drive as a data drive.

    then you can play around with junction to redirect stuff like C:\Program Files and C:\Program Files x86 and C:\Users to somewhere on the 3TB drive.... :-D


    That can be tricky and unreliable. I'm not saying it won't work, but there's a better way. Get a 128GB SSD for $49. Install Windows and all your programs on it and use the 3TB drive for everything else. Plus you get the benefit of the speed of the SSD when booting and loading programs.

    I've been using a similar setup for years. Putting all your eggs in one big basket just doesn't make sense.


  • SockDev

    @Spanky587 said:

    That can be tricky and unreliable.

    tricky? nah. not so much. i use it all the time.

    unreliable? how so? again it's something i use heavily and it's never given me issues


  • kills Dumbledore

    @Spanky587 said:

    128GB SSD

    @Spanky587 said:

    all your programs on it

    Not a gamer then?


  • SockDev

    @Jaloopa said:

    Not a gamer then?

    nor a programmer.... a good VS/SQL install will sap a 128GB partition dry in no time.



  • @accalia said:

    nor a programmer...

    Not all programmers use VS, obvs.


  • SockDev

    @loopback0 said:

    Not all programmers use VS, obvs.

    Well, yes, but i've notices simmilar levels of bloat in Netbeans and eclipse.

    and don't even get me started on XCode.... Bloat isn't the half of it!

    maybe if he's a ViM-4-EVAH! programmer like myself....



  • @accalia said:

    i've notices simmilar levels of bloat in Netbeans and eclipse.

    Eclipse takes up less than 400MB, it's certainly not going to munch through a 128GB partition in a hurry.


  • SockDev

    @loopback0 said:

    Eclipse takes up less than 400MB,

    base install, but you're gonna need to add in plugins, lots of plugins, and updates to the plugins that tend to leave cruft from the old versions hidden away in your workspace.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    @accalia said:

    lots of plugins

    Really? I have 7 pieces, including Eclipse Standard/SDK, Eclipse Java Developers Tools, and Eclipse Web Developers Tools, which I consider part of "Eclipse". CFEclipse I could get rid of and not miss, I do my CF editing in sublime these days. m2eclipse has two packages.



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    Really? I have 7 pieces, including Eclipse Standard/SDK, Eclipse Java Developers Tools, and Eclipse Web Developers Tools, which I consider part of "Eclipse".

    Yeah, I've got the ones you mentioned (which came with Eclipse), the XML tools, the maven plugin and the Salesforce IDE plugins. They all seem to be under the same folder as Eclipse, so were counted in Eclipse being < 400MB.



  • I'm doing RCP development so Eclipse + multiple different target platforms lying around is coming to about 2 gbs. Still well short of the 128gb mark though.



  • Side note to @Yamikuronue and @loopback0 : The Maven plugin has been shipped as part of the JavaEE version of Eclipse since at least 2014 (possibly 2013). I know it's been in both Eclipse Luna and Eclipse Mars.



  • @powerlord said:

    The Maven plugin has been shipped as part of the JavaEE version of Eclipse since at least 2014 (possibly 2013). I know it's been in both Eclipse Luna and Eclipse Mars.

    I couldn't remember if it was shipped with it or not. I remember having to install something to use Maven for one of our projects, might have been the m2e Git Connector though in hindsight.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Yeah, I'm on Luna. It still lists it separately when you click "Installation Details"



  • Yes, but so are the Eclipse Web Developer Tools and those are rather than point of downloading the JavaEE version of Eclipse.

    Even the Java Development part of Eclipse is an optional component as it's not present in the C++ Development version of Eclipse.



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    It still lists it separately when you click "Installation Details"

    Didn't think to check there.
    Mine just lists the M2E Git Connector, not the Maven plugin.

    Doesn't list
    @powerlord said:

    the Eclipse Web Developer Tools
    either even though I'm sure they're there.


  • I survived the hour long Uno hand

    Really? Weird.



  • @loopback0 said:

    @Yamikuronue said:
    It still lists it separately when you click "Installation Details"

    Didn't think to check there.
    Mine just lists the M2E Git Connector, not the Maven plugin.

    Doesn't list

    @powerlord said:

    the Eclipse Web Developer Tools
    either even though I'm sure they're there.

    As of Eclipse Mars, there is now just put a single entry for Eclipse IDE for Java EE Developers, which you can expand to see way more information about the tools included by default.

    When I say "way more," there's 60 entries there including all the m2e stuff and Eclipse Java Web Developer Tools.



  • @accalia said:

    maybe if he's a ViM-4-EVAH! programmer like myself....

    * points to his long name.

    The dev database is the bit space-eater. And woe you if you've tripped up and let it grow too big - nuke & pave is easier than actually reclaiming disk space from an oracle instance.



  • Why are you people debating what plug-ins get installed with Eclipse!

    Jesus, I can't think of ANYTHING more dull to talk about.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    I can't think of ANYTHING more dull to talk about.

    Have you ever studied the patterns formed in drying paint…? :smiling_imp:


  • SockDev

    @dkf said:

    Have you ever studied the patterns formed in drying paint…? :smiling_imp:

    yes, but i find the pale in comparison to the subtle beauty of watching grass grow.


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