Straw men.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male, but has a congenital condition that blocks expression of male attributes such as androgen insensitivity or non-Klinefelter's XXY disomy. Biologically, she is female in most respects, and has been her entire life, and she presents as female. How would this affect your relationship? Would it change your view of her gender status?

    I would not be affected; if I recall correctly, most or all of those conditions result in impotence, so the only real difference would be that the we couldn't naturally have children together, and would have to rely on adoption or science. There'd also be long-term health concerns, but those are possibly in any relationship anyway. I'd be okay with both of those, and it would not change my view of her gender status.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine that the person didn't tell you until after you began a sexual relationship. Would this change the equation, and if so, how?

    No, unless she were to tell me after we've been trying for a long time to have a child naturally, in which case I would probably be at least somewhat annoyed at the wasted time and the dashed hopes that tend to accompany failed attempts at getting pregnant. I probably wouldn't be angry enough for it to really affect the relationship, if it had gotten to the point where we were trying to have kids, but I would definitely want to make sure that things like that don't happen again.
    @ScholRLEA said:
    Imagine, instead, that you have already been in a sexual relationship with a woman, when she learns about having such a condition. Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?

    It would, but only in the ways mentioned in my response to the first scenario, and I wouldn't actually be put off by any of it in this case, either.
    @ScholRLEA said:
    Now let's go a bit more hypothetical. What affect would it have if, instead, their physical sex had been altered - completely, on a biological and even genetic level - by some means (magic, applied phlebotinium, whatever), in each of those situations? Would it matter if it were a permanent change (e.g., brain transfer a la Beyond Rejection, divine intervention a la Slamacis, a curse such as Gwydion) or temporary (e.g., Princess Ozma, Ranma Saotome)? What if it seemed permanent, but was later reversed (e.g., Gwydion, Tiresias)?

    I'm not quite sure I understand the premise of this hypothetical. So, you're saying that someone who was, at one point, completely and totally male, had been swapped into a completely and totally female body, and was now looking to get into a relationship with me? How does this apply to the previous scenario? Is the person being sex-swapped mid-relationship, or had they been sex-swapped before they knew about it, and just found out mid-relationship?

    Now, to clarify my response to this last question, which I think I understand more clearly than the rest of this scenario, as a gay man, I've been answering as if I felt attraction to the woman in this hypothetical in the same way I currently feel attraction to men, and that my feelings towards men are the same as my actual feelings towards women. So, if I were flipped on the Kinsey Scale, essentially. Now, I'm a 5 on the Kinsey Scale, so in this hypothetical I'm assuming that I'm a 1. In such a case, if a woman I were to be dating were suddenly switched to a man, and I truly had feelings for the person, I would do my best to make it work, though that might include some unusual behavior in the bedroom from time to time, which hopefully my now-girlfriend would be okay with.
    @ScholRLEA said:

    What about the case of a shapeshifter who can alter their sexual characteristics at will, either instantly (e.g., Mystique, Loki) or over time (e.g., citizens of The Culture)? What if they have no default form, or no sense of gender separate from their current form (e.g., Jimmy T. in the Whateley Academy stories), or no cultural concept of gender at all (the aforementioned Culture citizens)?

    I suppose it would really depend on whether or not I was attracted to them in general. I'm not 100% gay, so I would be okay with having a female partner sometimes, if I were attracted to the person. As for not having a default form, or no separate sense of gender, or no concept of gender at all, that seems to me to sound like or remarkably similar to genderfluid and genderqueer people, which, again, would really depend on whether or not I was attracted to them in general.



  • Fox, we know your opinion. We get it. We really, really, really do.

    Cool.

    But we also (gasp!) aren't you. People think differently, and value things differently. It's part of being human.

    In the other thread, you very clearly showed us that you don't understand that. Maybe your intent here isn't to show off how perfect and holy you are, but after the way you were acting over there, it's very hard to accept that.

    At the very least, when people inevitably start saying how they're different, while quoting you, please don't ignite a second thread.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    Fox, we know your opinion. We get it. We really, really, really do.

    Cool.

    But we also (gasp!) aren't you. People think differently, and value things differently. It's part of being human.

    In the other thread, you very clearly showed us that you don't understand that. Maybe your intent here isn't to show off how perfect and holy you are, but after the way you were acting over there, it's very hard to accept that.

    At the very least, when people inevitably start saying how they're different, while quoting you, please don't ignite a second thread.

    Where did I say, "This is how I am, and this is how everyone should be, and if you don't think exactly like this, you're wrong"? Furthermore, where in this thread did I bring up any sort of condemnation whatsoever? I was answering the questions. If you want to hassle me about this issue, the other thread is :arrows:



  • Look, you're doing it!

    Again, we all knew how you'd answer these. And we all know that by answering them here, people will reply to you, and you will take offense, exactly like this.

    I specifically said that you haven't done anything wrong here, but that people are likely to see it that way, so you should take care not to spark another flamewar.

    You are far too sensitive when it comes to this matter, so take care.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    Again, we all knew how you'd answer these. And we all know that by answering them here, people will reply to you, and you will take offense, exactly like this.

    I specifically said that you haven't done anything wrong here, but that people are likely to see it that way, so you should take care not to spark another flamewar.

    Sounds like projection.
    @Magus said:

    Look, you're doing it!

    @Magus said:
    But we also (gasp!) aren't you. People think differently, and value things differently. It's part of being human.

    Or are you saying that this was not, in fact, you implying that I said, at any point, that people can't be different?

    You're the one trying to spark a flame war here. So, again, the flame war thread is :arrows:



  • So, if I say "I don't see things this way, but people are likely to expect this of you" what I actually mean is that I think that and am just trying to make myself look good? No. You're a moron.

    @Fox said:

    Or are you saying that this was not, in fact, you implying that I said, at any point, that people can't be different?

    That specific point is clearly true. You made it clear multiple times in the other thread, along with the fact that it offends you.

    This thread has potential to actually go somewhere, unless you continue to make it about you. No, I don't like you very much. But unless you continue this, I can at least believe that you have some basic human decency, and some self-awareness. Do you really not see at all how you entering this thread could cause problems?

    We don't know you very well. Certainly not well enough to have any belief in your self control, and you killed benefit of the doubt in the other thread.

    Look, my point remains: If people say opinions about the things you say, try to avoid sparking a flamewar again. That's all I'm asking. We gave you an audience for long enough, and then a lot of us left, because we're tired of it. We don't want it to spread, and don't trust that you can avoid it.

    Please, just leave it alone.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    That specific point is clearly true. You made it clear multiple times in the other thread, along with the fact that it offends you.

    No, I didn't. I never said that. The entire point of what I've been saying this entire time is that people can be different, and that's okay.

    @Magus said:

    This thread has potential to actually go somewhere, unless you continue to make it about you. No, I don't like you very much.

    You're the one making this thread about some straw man you think is me. So, again, the flame war thread is :arrows:

    I just came here to answer @ScholRLEA's questions.

    Also, I was summoned here. So there's that.



  • @Fox said:

    No, I didn't. I never said that. The entire point of what I've been saying this entire time is that people can be different, and that's okay.

    For values of different you approve of.

    @Fox said:

    You're the one making this thread about some straw man you think is me.

    I am giving a warning to a new member of the community who has acted erratically and excessively emotionally recently. You don't have to take issue with that. Like I said, we don't know you very well yet, and you haven't left the best impression, at least in my case. The warning is warranted.

    You are not being attacked. Okay? Calm down. I don't mind that you answered the question. That's a good, if redundant thing. But people are likely to say things you won't like. You don't have to play the victim when that happens.

    Again, just take it easy.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    For values of different you approve of.

    You're confusing "being different" and "wanting to treat people who are different like it's not okay to be different" again.

    @Magus said:

    You are not being attacked.

    You say that, yet in the same comment you once again build a straw man argument against me.



  • Look, if you're going to claim that others are using strawman arguments, you should probably not include one in the same post.

    Again, I only know what you have presented. And you are only now doing something messed up in this thread, exactly as I was worried you would. If someone would like to Jeff away these posts, I would be all for it. This has gone on long enough.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    Look, if you're going to claim that others are using strawman arguments, you should probably not include one in the same post.

    I'm not including any straw man arguments. You're telling me that I keep telling people it's wrong to be different. All I'm doing is telling people it's wrong to tell others that it's not okay to be different.
    @Magus said:

    And you are only now doing something messed up in this thread, exactly as I was worried you would. If someone would like to Jeff away these posts, I would be all for it. This has gone on long enough.

    You're the one instigating this, not me. And yes, I think it would be a good idea to just Jeff everything from post 29 to here out of this thread. Or, better yet, just delete it instead of Jeffing it out. This entire discussion between me and you has been pointless trolling.



  • @Fox said:

    I'm not including any straw man arguments.

    @Fox said:

    This entire discussion between me and you has been pointless trolling.

    Read what people write, and have some self awareness! Seriously! Is that too much to ask?



  • @fox, listen: I get where you're coming from. Almost all LGBTQ folks have gotten shit for being who they are at some point. I've been unusually fortunate in that regard, but I've have my ration of fundie crap over the years too.

    But you can't solve that by assuming people who disagree with you are doing so entirely out of a *phobic reaction. You'd end up becoming a mirror to the people you are struggling against if you do that. Remember Hanlon's Razor, and try not stare too long into that abyss.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Magus said:

    Read what people write, and have some self awareness! Seriously! Is that too much to ask?

    For it to be a straw man argument, it would have to be wrong. I see no evidence of that.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    I do remember Hanlon's Razor. I started out being open to the idea that these people were just uneducated and were condoning hurtful behavior out of ignorance of how that behavior is actually hurtful. But it's become apparent that they are either willfully ignorant, or openly malicious.



  • I see that you don't. And that's the problem.

    @Fox said:

    You're confusing "being different" and "wanting to treat people who are different like it's not okay to be different" again.

    >Not a strawman


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Again, it would have to be wrong to qualify as a straw man. Yet you very clearly seem to think that me condemning people for treating others poorly for being different is equivalent to condemning people for being different.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @Fox said:

    has been pointless trolling.

    I was wondering all that's been going on. I can faithfully say that at least one person in all of this isn't truly using critical thinking...


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Yeah, I really should just stop feeding the trolls. It's not beneficial or amusing to me anymore.



  • If someone actually thinks it's okay to treat people badly for being different, then your point isn't a strawman. Which is why it is one.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Okay, one last time, then I'm done.

    @Magus said:

    If someone actually thinks it's okay to treat people badly for being different, then your point isn't a strawman. Which is why it is one.

    Have you even read the other thread? All of the people arguing with me are insisting that it's okay to treat people badly for being different. They just also insist that that bad treatment isn't actually bad, even when I provide proof that it is.



  • I keep losing track. What number of threads do we now have about this issue?


  • mod

    Too damn many. Muted.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Perhaps I should create a new category....

    /dev/null perhaps.



  • Yay, another thread to mute. :|



  • @Fox said:

    All of the people arguing with me are insisting that it's okay to treat people badly for being different.

    No they are not. You are asking for preferential treatment and for redefinition of common terms.



  • @Luhmann said:

    You are asking for preferential treatment and for redefinition of common terms.

    "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of $THING is to stop discriminating on the basis of $THING."



  • You're such a $THINGIST.



  • HEY LOOK yet ANOTHER one of these threads I now have to Mute!

    I LOVE IT! KEEP THEM COMING! YOU PIECE OF SHIT!



  • @blakeyrat, you could just mute the thread instead of being a dock about it. Oh.





  • Fucking Swype. I blame @blakeyrat.

    :belt_onion:


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @PJH The OP of this thread should've stayed in the other one.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @Luhmann said:

    @Fox said:
    All of the people arguing with me are insisting that it's okay to treat people badly for being different.

    No they are not. You are asking for preferential treatment and for redefinition of common terms.

    @Fox said:

    They just also insist that that bad treatment isn't actually bad, even when I provide proof that it is.

    Please learn to read.



  • Another of these threads?! Is this an infinitely duplicating flamewar now?!


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    I know the concept of jeffing may be new to you, but please try to keep up.





  • Dude, I was Jeffing long before you donned your bra and turned up here.



  • @ScholRLEA said:

    We have a Bra Cox, is that good enough?


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Dude, I was being a sarcastic smartass long before you donned your top hat and moustache.



  • I was fucking born wearing a top hat and moustache.
    There was a monocle too, but I lost that when I was young :cry:


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    My sarcastic smartassery is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

    <!-- [/sarcasm] -->


  • Yeah, don't bother with pjh, he's even worse than magus.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    That's... that's possible?!



  • Well, magus is at least interacting with you, right? Pjh just tunes you out unless you're taking about divorce rights, mgm, or male rape.



  • @Buddy said:

    mgm

    I am a victim of this.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @ben_lubar said:

    @Buddy said:
    mgm

    I am a victim of this.

    Me too. @PJH, I'm a victim of this, so Jeff the OP of this thread back where it came from.



  • At this point I'm tempted to make a new one just to annoy people.

    But I'm not really that kind of person.



  • "Straw Men."

    Is this a thread about guys with really thin dicks?



  • "If your penis is 2 feet long and is a biofuel substitute for coal, this is the thread for you!"


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