Because That Other Thread just isn't big enough for this flame war!



  • Hopefully, it won't get buried this time.

    Continuing the discussion from Trans-Unsaturated Fatty Acid Shaming:

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Sweet Lady Eris, this fucking thread is still going? Shit on a stick.

    Seriously, Fox, you have to learn how to pick your battles.

    Eh, I may as well stir the pot a bit, so here are a few leading questions for those who are easily amused enough to still be here:

    • Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male, but has a congenital condition that blocks expression of male attributes such as androgen insensitivity or non-Klinefelter's XXY disomy. Biologically, she is female in most respects, and has been her entire life, and she presents as female. How would this affect your relationship? Would it change your view of her gender status? (This part isn't entirely hypothetical; in Texas between 1999 and 2009, the Littleton v. Prange precedent held that genetic sex defined legal gender which would mean that a n individual with CAIS would be legally male regardless of their birth sex. The issue of non-masculine males never came up legally in that period, but did apply to same sex marriages, meaning that a trans individual could not marry cis person their birth sex, but could marry a partner whose birth sex was the opposite of their birth sex, regardless of their current gender presentation. Didn't see that one coming, did they?)
    • Imagine that the person didn't tell you until after you began a sexual relationship. Would this change the equation, and if so, how?
    • Imagine, instead, that you have already been in a sexual relationship with a woman, when she learns about having such a condition. Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?
    • Now let's go a bit more hypothetical. What affect would it have if, instead, their physical sex had been altered - completely, on a biological and even genetic level - by some means (magic, applied phlebotinium, whatever), in each of those situations? Would it matter if it were a permanent change (e.g., brain transfer a la Beyond Rejection, divine intervention a la Slamacis, a curse such as Gwydion) or temporary (e.g., Princess Ozma, Ranma Saotome)? What if it seemed permanent, but was later reversed (e.g., Gwydion, Tiresias)?
    • What about the case of a shapeshifter who can alter their sexual characteristics at will, either instantly (e.g., Mystique, Loki) or over time (e.g., citizens of The Culture)? What if they have no default form, or no sense of gender separate from their current form (e.g., Jimmy T. in the Whateley Academy stories), or no cultural concept of gender at all (the aforementioned Culture citizens)?

    Yes, I have thought a bit too much about this, why do you ask?



  • Are you trying to have another version of the same bloody topic?! :laughing:



  • I'd imagine the opinions are flying so hard and fast that it's hard to get one in edgewise.



  • Not quite; this was a set of questions I asked earlier in that thread, but which got completely overwhelmed by the flaming. I am hoping - with very little chance of success, admittedly - that this thread will be a bit less vitriolic.



  • Exactly.



  • If it kicks off in here too - I'm blaming you :laughing:



  • @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male, but has a congenital condition that blocks expression of male attributes such as androgen insensitivity or non-Klinefelter's XXY disomy.

    I've thought about this situation before. I don't think I could realistically predict how I'd react; there are too many variables. I would have to think long and hard about it. "Cross that bridge when I come to it," if you will.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    What about the case of a shapeshifter who can alter their sexual characteristics at will, either instantly (e.g., Mystique, Loki) or over time (e.g., citizens of The Culture)? What if they have no default form, or no sense of gender separate from their current form (e.g., Jimmy T. in the Whateley Academy stories), or no cultural concept of gender at all (the aforementioned Culture citizens)?

    Wait, :wtf:...this is a discussion point??



  • @loopback0 said:

    Are you trying to have another version of the same bloody topic?!

    It's open source, everyone can fork it to their liking.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    What about the case of a shapeshifter

    I'm fairly convinced this is not going to be a very successful fork, though.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    It's open source, everyone can fork it to their liking.

    Touche.



  • @rc4 said:

    Wait, :wtf:...this is a discussion point??

    It's a speculation issue, a thought experiment if you would. Yes, it can't happen in the real world, but that doesn't make irrelevant in understand the matter.



  • I'm a trans-humanist, so I'm in favor of being able to change your body as you want.

    No, screw that, I'm a posthumanist. As soon as I can I'll transfer my consciousness to a computer, buy a handful of universal constructor nanofactories, a rocket, and launch myself to a close orbit around the sun, where I'll quietly spend a few millenia collecting matter and energy and augmenting my own intelligence, then I'll build a bigger rocket and set off to conquer (a small part of) the galaxy.

    You're welcome to stay with your fragile bodies that shed skin all the time and get cancer.


  • area_deu

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine you are a (cis-)man

    :donotwant:

    Done!



  • It doesn't necessarily make it relevant, either. I guess to people more interested in the topic, however, it may be interesting.



  • Why not? We're the ones with all the privilege and all that!


  • area_deu

    @rc4 said:

    Why not? We're the ones with all the privilege and all that!



  • Proxy :no_entry_sign: :cry:



  • Whelp, glad I read follow ups before going all the way into @ScholRLEA's post now I know I can just mute this one too. Thanks.


  • area_deu

    Fixed?



  • This ain't no stickin' transtopic without bra cox and flabby.

    @fox
    @flabdablet



  • Yes, thanks.



  • You know, muting doesn't really do much if you don't post in the thread on the first place. It only prevents notifications from @mentions.



  • Muting the topic stops the unread counters too.


  • sockdevs

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male, but has a congenital condition that blocks expression of male attributes such as androgen insensitivity or non-Klinefelter's XXY disomy. Biologically, she is female in most respects, and has been her entire life, and she presents as female. How would this affect your relationship? Would it change your view of her gender status?

    If i'm interested enough in them to engage in sexual relations with them i would care not what sex they physically are, or what gender they identify as. I like them for being them and that's all that matters.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * Imagine that the person didn't tell you until after you began a sexual relationship. Would this change the equation, and if so, how?
    well that would bring up an issue of trust that would have to be worked through, but other than that.... not really. Again, i would like them for being them, and assuming we work out the trust issue then carry on as usual.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * Imagine, instead, that you have already been in a sexual relationship with a woman, when she learns about having such a condition. Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?
    If i'm interested in having sex with them i'm interested in them for being them. Is that really so complicated a concept?

    I mean sure there would presumably be a period of drama as they try to integrate the new knowledge into their self image, but that's something we could work on together.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * Now let's go a bit more hypothetical. What affect would it have if, instead, their physical sex had been altered - completely, on a biological and even genetic level - by some means (magic, applied phlebotinium, whatever), in each of those situations? Would it matter if it were a permanent change (e.g., brain transfer a la Beyond Rejection, divine intervention a la Slamacis, a curse such as Gwydion) or temporary (e.g., Princess Ozma, Ranma Saotome)? What if it seemed permanent, but was later reversed (e.g., Gwydion, Tiresias)?
    I get the feeling i've answered this one before..... If i'm interested in having sex with them i'm interested in them for being them.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * What about the case of a shapeshifter who can alter their sexual characteristics at will, either instantly (e.g., Mystique, Loki) or over time (e.g., citizens of The Culture)? What if they have no default form, or no sense of gender separate from their current form (e.g., Jimmy T. in the Whateley Academy stories), or no cultural concept of gender at all (the aforementioned Culture citizens)?
    oh now you are just trying to get me all hot and bothered! :drool:


    Not that i anticipate my answers to be representative of the whole population, but there you go.



  • I do not make the assumption that the only allowable genotype:body plan:gender combinations are XY:stereotypically male:man and XX:stereotypically female:woman. These are the most frequently seen combinations, but that is all; genotype, body plan and gender are conceptually separate. If she considers herself a woman, and presents as a woman, and I am attracted to her, then as far as I'm concerned she's a woman, regardless of how she came to be one.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    How would this affect your relationship?

    Not at all.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Would it change your view of her gender status?

    If you're asking whether it would make me think of her as faulty in some way, or as not a real woman: no.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Would this change the equation, and if so, how?

    No.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?

    Anything that increases our knowledge about ourselves or each other is bound to affect our relationship. I can't see how it would affect it negatively, if that's what you're asking. If I were interested in making more humans (which I'm not) then it might do.

    As for the extra hypothetical hypotheticals: as I said before, if she considers herself a woman, and presents as a woman, and I find myself attracted to her, then as far as I'm concerned she's a woman, regardless of how she came to be one.

    If I were to find myself attracted to a person whose gender is unimportant to them, I expect that their gender would also be unimportant to me.

    I consider myself heterosexual because I am a man who has only ever experienced sexual attraction to women. However, because I understand that sexual attraction is a feeling, and therefore almost orthogonal to reason, I also consider that my heterosexuality is a matter of experience and not policy. My best guess is that finding myself sexually attracted to somebody other than a woman is very unlikely, but if it were to happen I'd simply find a more accurate word to describe my orientation. I would not expect to experience cognitive dissonance, distress, grief for lost manly manliness and so forth.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @ScholRLEA said:

    I am hoping - with very little chance of success, admittedly - that this thread will be a bit less vitriolic.

    +1 Funny



  • Wow a second thread to mute. What a glorious gift you have given me.



  • @aliceif said:

    @rc4 said:
    Why not? We're the ones with all the privilege and all that!

    Fuck you you prick! That's difficulty shaming me!

    @accalia said:

    If i'm interested enough in them to engage in sexual relations with them i would care not what sex they physically are, or what gender they identify as. I like them for being them and that's all that matters.
    A friend(can't help but think fiend would be a better work) from more naive time had the standard of been worth drooling over. Granted he spent 14 hours a week at the gym so maybe he had the right idea.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    21 posts were split to a new topic: Straw men.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @ScholRLEA said:

    * Imagine, instead, that you have already been in a sexual relationship with a woman, when she learns about having such a condition. Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?

    Lying about important things immediately end a relationship with me. I cannot stand liars.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male

    Living with a person with female looks and sexual organs and the sex drive of a man? Plus no period? That sounds like heaven to me!


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election Banned

    Okay, I'm just going to copypasta this back here where it belongs.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine you are a (cis-)man dating a woman, and she mentions before you are involved sexually that she is genetically (partly or wholly) male, but has a congenital condition that blocks expression of male attributes such as androgen insensitivity or non-Klinefelter's XXY disomy. Biologically, she is female in most respects, and has been her entire life, and she presents as female. How would this affect your relationship? Would it change your view of her gender status?

    I would not be affected; if I recall correctly, most or all of those conditions result in impotence, so the only real difference would be that the we couldn't naturally have children together, and would have to rely on adoption or science. There'd also be long-term health concerns, but those are possibly in any relationship anyway. I'd be okay with both of those, and it would not change my view of her gender status.

    @ScholRLEA said:

    Imagine that the person didn't tell you until after you began a sexual relationship. Would this change the equation, and if so, how?

    No, unless she were to tell me after we've been trying for a long time to have a child naturally, in which case I would probably be at least somewhat annoyed at the wasted time and the dashed hopes that tend to accompany failed attempts at getting pregnant. I probably wouldn't be angry enough for it to really affect the relationship, if it had gotten to the point where we were trying to have kids, but I would definitely want to make sure that things like that don't happen again.
    @ScholRLEA said:
    Imagine, instead, that you have already been in a sexual relationship with a woman, when she learns about having such a condition. Would this effect your relationship, and if so, how?

    It would, but only in the ways mentioned in my response to the first scenario, and I wouldn't actually be put off by any of it in this case, either.
    @ScholRLEA said:
    Now let's go a bit more hypothetical. What affect would it have if, instead, their physical sex had been altered - completely, on a biological and even genetic level - by some means (magic, applied phlebotinium, whatever), in each of those situations? Would it matter if it were a permanent change (e.g., brain transfer a la Beyond Rejection, divine intervention a la Slamacis, a curse such as Gwydion) or temporary (e.g., Princess Ozma, Ranma Saotome)? What if it seemed permanent, but was later reversed (e.g., Gwydion, Tiresias)?

    I'm not quite sure I understand the premise of this hypothetical. So, you're saying that someone who was, at one point, completely and totally male, had been swapped into a completely and totally female body, and was now looking to get into a relationship with me? How does this apply to the previous scenario? Is the person being sex-swapped mid-relationship, or had they been sex-swapped before they knew about it, and just found out mid-relationship?

    Now, to clarify my response to this last question, which I think I understand more clearly than the rest of this scenario, as a gay man, I've been answering as if I felt attraction to the woman in this hypothetical in the same way I currently feel attraction to men, and that my feelings towards men are the same as my actual feelings towards women. So, if I were flipped on the Kinsey Scale, essentially. Now, I'm a 5 on the Kinsey Scale, so in this hypothetical I'm assuming that I'm a 1. In such a case, if a woman I were to be dating were suddenly switched to a man, and I truly had feelings for the person, I would do my best to make it work, though that might include some unusual behavior in the bedroom from time to time, which hopefully my now-girlfriend would be okay with.
    @ScholRLEA said:

    What about the case of a shapeshifter who can alter their sexual characteristics at will, either instantly (e.g., Mystique, Loki) or over time (e.g., citizens of The Culture)? What if they have no default form, or no sense of gender separate from their current form (e.g., Jimmy T. in the Whateley Academy stories), or no cultural concept of gender at all (the aforementioned Culture citizens)?

    I suppose it would really depend on whether or not I was attracted to them in general. I'm not 100% gay, so I would be okay with having a female partner sometimes, if I were attracted to the person. As for not having a default form, or no separate sense of gender, or no concept of gender at all, that seems to me to sound like or remarkably similar to genderfluid and genderqueer people, which, again, would really depend on whether or not I was attracted to them in general.



  • Bug: Changed topic name doesn't propagate to quotes in jeff'd threads:

    Should I file a bug on meta.derp?


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