The HORROR of uncoordinated movement!


  • BINNED

    No it is not. And frankly it is stupid to pass something that will achieve nothing! Democrats suck. Either as @blakeyrat said should amend the amendment (like it or not) or at least pass something with a tangible outcome.
    This is applying a filter post-mortem to avoid past incidents, if the filter lets previous crazies through, it is just an overhead/bureaucracy.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Dragoon said:

    While that might very well work, that is not one that has been proposed currently by the administration.

    Another approach would be to apply a tax to each gun (probably on the receiver) paid yearly (i.e., not as a transaction tax). It obviously doesn't prohibit ownership as long as the per-item value of the tax isn't too high, and Congress's power to tax has been reaffirmed multiple times by the SCOTUS.

    Either you'll cut the gun problem or you'll sort out a lot of the federal deficit. Win-win!



  • A tax like that would require a national registry of firearms. Something that will be a nightmare to administer and would probably cost FAR more than it would generate. (this is government we are talking about, it will be so mismanaged healthcare.gov will look sensible)


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Dragoon said:

    Something that will be a nightmare to administer and would probably cost FAR more than it would generate.

    Oh! Employment opportunities that are fairly distributed throughout the states!



  • Just what this country needs, more government expenditures without any product produced. That is how you build a healthy economy.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Dragoon said:

    more government expenditures without any product produced.

    And all those employed people just magic the money out of the country?



  • Where did our broke government get the money to pay them?


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @dkf said:

    And all those employed people just magic the money out of the country?

    They magic the money out of our pockets and into theirs. You're already pushing your luck with a magical gun registry. Don't go pushing it further by magicking up a stimulus multiplier that doesn't suck.



  • @kt_ said:

    I knew that Hitler'd be referenced sooner or later.

    Wasn't he promising a better world? I feel like that excludes him somehow. :P


  • 🚽 Regular

    The whole gun issue could be worked around if "consumer grade" firearms weren't lethal.

    I don't expect tranq guns to become as reliabe and cost-effective as firearms, so maybe we could work on making humans bulletproof. Does being a gunshot survivor help one get laid? That's a start.

    Maybe we should start shooting random people until natural selection kicks in.

    :trollface:


  • 🚽 Regular

    Btw, why is this in Error'd?



  • Well you finance it by crippling fines imposed upon the many socially psychopathic perpetrators who believe that they should be allowed to carry on waving their stupid toys around in public without any let or hindrance.

    There's guys out there who want to be allowed to open-carry their guns in Mothercare, for goodness sake. There are incidents whereby children take their mother's gun from out of her handbag and shoot her or themselves or someone else with them. This is such an unbelievable WTF that any sane and rational government (and population, FFS) would instantly respond "Allowing people to carry loaded and cocked weapons around as casually as though they were sticks of candy is insane."

    But it will never happen. Americans are, as a nation, utterly fucking insane. It's a combination of utter, contemptible personal cowardice combined with a dangerously blatant paranoia, coupled with a complete inability to introspect and say to themselves: "I wonder why we have turned into a laughing-stock? I wonder why the rest of the world regards us this way? I wonder whether there's a grain of truth in what people say about us?"

    Ha, ha, ha, fucking ha ha.



  • @boomzilla said:

    Oh. @mott555 (?) posted something about that earlier. Eh..it's easy enough. Here:

    That's a great example statistics abuse, although I'd attribute it to stupidity rather than malice. Note how one axis is per capita and the other isn't. At 223% population increase, the number of deaths and number of guns would be directly proportional. The actual population increase is closer to 20% though.



  • @Matt_Westwood said:

    Well you finance it by crippling fines imposed upon the many socially psychopathic perpetrators who believe that they should be allowed to carry on waving their stupid toys around in public without any let or hindrance.

    Go ahead. Please march down to North Omaha for us and start collecting fines from the gang members. And please bring a camera crew.

    @Matt_Westwood said:

    There are incidents whereby children take their mother's gun from out of her handbag and shoot her or themselves or someone else with them.

    To be fair, accidental firearm deaths are EXTREMELY rare. We better crack down on swimming pools and staircases before we crack down on this if preventing accidental deaths is the actual goal. Oh and @Lorne_Kates ought to look at the "Poisoning" category since he was talking about how all those wonderful warning labels on chemicals have solved that issue.

    @Matt_Westwood said:

    Americans are, as a nation, utterly fucking insane.

    Perhaps, but we're still (nominally) the world power, so whatcha gonna do 'bout it? Maybe our so-called "insanity" is what made us a world power in the first place.



  • Everybody knows the gun problem is suicides, which do not show up either as homicides or accidental discharges and are largely statistically "invisible".



  • Suicides gonna suicide, man. The tool isn't the issue there. I'm sure this'll get @Lorne_Kates' panties in a wad again because my anecdotes are just anecdotes and so these people don't count or something, while his anecdotes and feelings are gospel truth, but of the four suicides that have happened within my extended circles, none of them involved a firearm, though any one of them would have had no trouble acquiring one. I guess we need some reasonable restrictions on methamphetamine to prevent intentional overdoses.



  • Well, I dunno. Imagine if we had the attempted suicide rate of, say, Japan with the firearm availability of the US. You'd see a lot more successful suicides.

    Personally, I agree with you. If people wanna kill themselves, frankly, I believe that's their right to do so. I just wish they wouldn't do it in a manner that leads other people to have to clean up a nasty mess.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @mott555 said:

    To be fair, accidental firearm deaths are EXTREMELY rare. We better crack down on swimming pools and staircases before we crack down on this if preventing accidental deaths is the actual goal. Oh and @Lorne_Kates ought to look at the "Poisoning" category since he was talking about how all those wonderful warning labels on chemicals have solved that issue.

    Let's see. Chart from 2007. Contains no definition for "Accidental". Reliable 👍

    Pro-gun people intentionally classify "Accidental" in such a way for it to be vanishingly rare. After all, it isn't an "Accident" if it's because of lack of training, it's lack of training.

    Let's see what 2013 has to say. We'll stick with the CDC:

    All firearm deaths
    Number of deaths: 33,636 (11,208 homicide, 21,175 suicide)
    Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.6

    All poisoning deaths
    Number of deaths: 48,545
    Deaths per 100,000 population: 15.4

    "Accidental" is oddly classified, as per ICD codes:
    http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/V00-Y99/W20-W49/W32-/W32

    It doesn't include accidental shotgun deaths. And doesn't really get into if a baby shooting it's mother is "accidental" or homicide. Homicide is listed as X93, X94, X95, which are classified as "Assault by [pistol, shotgun/rifle, other]".
    http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/V00-Y99/X92-Y09/X93-/X93
    http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/V00-Y99/X92-Y09/X93-/X94
    http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/V00-Y99/X92-Y09/X93-/X95

    Getting shot by someone else would seem to be an assault. Sandy Hook certainly counts. The 11 year-old bully shotgunning a little girl he didn't like counts. I can't figure out a concrete "yes or no" if children grabbing guns and shooting someone else count as "accident" or "assault". I've found some sources, but they're from anti-gun nutbars, so I don't rely on those sources.

    For the record: I don't count your source as reliable, either. If your website has the words "facts" or "truth" in the URL, the content will contain neither.



  • @Lorne_Kates said:

    Let's see. Chart from 2007. Contains no definition for "Accidental". Reliable 👍

    ...
    We'll stick with the CDC:

    So, stats from CDC aren't reliable, let's link to the CDC instead!


  • BINNED

    @dkf said:

    Either you'll cut the gun problem or you'll sort out a lot of the federal deficit.

    You can't reliably tax your way out of a deficit without also limiting the ability of government to spend the extra revenue. But if you could do that, you wouldn't need to tax your way out of the deficit.

    @mott555 said:

    To be fair, accidental firearm deaths are EXTREMELY rare. We better crack down on swimming pools and staircases before we crack down on this if preventing accidental deaths is the actual goal. Oh and @Lorne_Kates ought to look at the "Poisoning" category since he was talking about how all those wonderful warning labels on chemicals have solved that issue.

    +∞


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @mott555 said:

    So, stats from CDC aren't reliable, let's link to the CDC instead!

    Wrong. Stats from the CDC are reliable. 8 year old stats from the CDC aren't relevant when recent stats supersede them. 3rd party analysis of stats-- presented in an intentionally misleading context-- by a pro-gun website with an agenda-- aren't reliable.

    But please, continue to be a fucking idiot. Use out of date facts! Ignore facts and call me a strawman. You're doing an amazing job at proving guns are perfectly safe, and that there is literally no problem with guns whatsoever, and they don't cause harm and nothing needs to change and I CAN STOP WHENEVER I WANT TO.

    *edit *And I specifically said "Let's stick with the CDC" because that's the same source your chart used. idiot.



  • @Lorne_Kates said:

    by a pro-gun website with an agenda

    Fun fact, everyone has an agenda. Those who say they don't are lying and can't be trusted. If agendas prevent stats from being reliable, we can't listen to anything anyone anywhere says.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Use out of date facts!

    Eh, the stats didn't change very much. If anything, the important value to consider when looking at newer stats is that the number of guns in this country has grown by at least 50M, possibly as much as 100M, over those eight years. Do the per-capita death/injury/whatever rates match the increase in gun ownership? If not, then the issue isn't as simple as you believe.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Ignore facts and call me a strawman.

    Says the guy who's about to die of smoke asphyxiation in a field of burning strawmen.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    You're doing an amazing job at proving guns are perfectly safe

    If we want to vote on this democratically, I'd say the ratio of likes on my posts compared to the likes on your posts would back this up.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    they don't cause harm

    Yay, more strawmen. Lorne thinks I think that guns have never hurt or killed anyone ever!

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    nothing needs to change

    Strawmen again! I've said over and over again that what needs to change is that current laws need to actually be enforced! Straw purchase? Jail. Gang shooting? Jail. Felon illegally owning firearms (aka my father)? Jail. Caught improperly storing firearms? Jail. Fail a background check while attempting to purchase a firearm? Jail. Problem is this doesn't actually happen. Meanwhile, people everywhere call for creating new laws, willfully ignorant that most of what they're calling for is already covered by existing laws.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    idiot.

    I know you are but what am I?



  • There are already laws against waving a weapon around in public.
    There are already laws against leaving a weapon within reach of a minor.

    But please, continue to ignore the laws that we already have in place and add more covering the same thing. That will surely stop these things from happening.



  • Let's not get onto your utterly appalling traffic casualty statistics, of course, which is a WTF in itself.

    You don't waltz down to a gang hideout with a camera crew, you go in with the army and heavy artillery. Thought everybody knew that. It's what happened in Waco, it can happen in Omaha, sure as shit. Where's the problem?



  • I'm completely with Blakeyrat on the subject of suicides. What surprises me is that the suicide rate in the US isn't a lot higher than it is.



  • @Matt_Westwood said:

    You don't waltz down to a gang hideout with a camera crew, you go in with the army and heavy artillery. Thought everybody knew that. It's what happened in Waco, it can happen in Omaha, sure as shit. Where's the problem?

    Needs to be done, but nobody has the balls to do it, apparently. Lack of enforcement.


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @mott555 said:

    Fun fact, everyone has an agenda.

    And some people's agenda bias data. Why would you rely on a possibly biased interpretation of data, when you can look at the raw data yourself? It's cited. It's right there. It's the reason I didn't cite any analysis from "anti-gun" sites. They're just as unreliable as pro-gun sites.

    It's called science.

    @mott555 said:

    Eh, the stats didn't change very much.

    Number of deaths, 2007: 31,224
    Number of deaths: 2013: 33,636

    Increase of 1.08%. A standard error, as per their calculations is R/sqrt(D), where R is the rate of death 10.4, and D is the number of deaths, 31,224. = 0.0589%.

    Therefore, the number of deaths has increased more than a statistically significant number. Your chart is out of date and unreliable.

    @mott555 said:

    Do the per-capita death/injury/whatever rates match the increase in gun ownership?

    Impossible data to gather, since it requires self-reporting. The most accurate seems to be a survey in 2007:

    But it doesn't have a 2013 update, so can't compare.

    @mott555 said:

    If we want to vote on this democratically, I'd say the ratio of likes on my posts compared to the likes on your posts would back this up.

    I'd rather stick to facts than "feels", thanks.

    @mott555 said:

    Strawmen again! I've said over and over again that what needs to change is that current laws need to actually be enforced! Straw purchase? Jail. Gang shooting? Jail. Felon illegally owning firearms (aka my father)? Jail. Caught improperly storing firearms? Jail. Fail a background check while attempting to purchase a firearm? Jail. Problem is this doesn't actually happen. Meanwhile, people everywhere call for creating new laws, willfully ignorant that most of what they're calling for is already covered by existing laws.

    So what about testing people's safety and proficiency with firearms before giving them a license? Why do you need all those laws, and law enforcement, when you can be preventative? And isn't enforcing gun laws just "the police/FBI/DHS coming to take my guns"? (generic quote, not directly you, Mr. Strawfield).

    @mott555 said:

    I know you are but what am I?

    And idiot. I know Discourse sucks at quoting, but you literally quoted where I called you an idiot.

    @mott555 said:

    Needs to be done, but nobody has the balls to do it, apparently. Lack of enforcement.

    I've kinda wondered about that.

    "Attention residents of Gang Infested Shithole: in 24 hours, we're doing a military sweep of this area. All citizens are given fair warning. Please exit past the checkpoint. We'll check your ID to make sure you aren't on a wanted list. After that, we're arresting everyone in the area. All citizens will be compensated for their time and damages. The money will come from the War on Drug funds. Thank you for your co-operation. Expect to see a lot of arrested and dead drug runnings tomorrow. General Loudspeak: out!"



  • @Lorne_Kates said:

    Number of deaths, 2007: 31,224Number of deaths: 2013: 33,636

    Increase of 1.08%. A standard error, as per their calculations is R/sqrt(D), where R is the rate of death 10.4, and D is the number of deaths, 31,224. = 0.0589%.

    I can play silly games with statistics, too!

    US Population, 2007: 301.23 million
    US Population, 2013: 316.50 million

    Increase of ~ 5.0%.

    Why didn't gun deaths keep up with the population increase? Seems to me that per-capita gun deaths went down!

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    I'd rather stick to facts than "feels", thanks.

    😆 Had me fooled.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    So what about testing people's safety and proficiency with firearms before giving them a license? Why do you need all those laws, and law enforcement, when you can be preventative?

    Okay, you go up to North Omaha and start requiring gang members to demonstrate safety and proficiency before they purchase a permit for their black market Hi-Point. Criminals gonna criminal.

    As for everyone else, except for the occasional idiot (there will ALWAYS be a few that slip through the cracks, regardless of how extensive the system is, unless said system is "100% of the population will be inserted into the Matrix and incapable of physical contact with anything else") the vast majority of gun owners are clearly capable of safe handling, as demonstrated by the documented low rate of injuries and deaths from firearms accidents which you tried (and failed) to explain away earlier by claiming a 1% change somehow means it doesn't matter. Nothing needs to be done on this front, because realistically not much can be done. You're more likely to all down the stairs, hit your head, and die, than to be killed in a firearms accident. I suppose we need mandatory training and permits to demonstrate proficiency with staircases!

    Accidents aside, that leaves suicides and homicides. I don't know what the answer is for suicide. The answer for homicide is not gun control, because sending me through waiting periods, background checks, and registration schemes has absolutely no effect on the ex-con who avoids the entire system by illegally purchasing a Hi-Point through a straw purchase or black market, which, coincidentally, is already illegal as hell but not strongly enforced.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    And isn't enforcing gun laws just "the police/FBI/DHS coming to take my guns"? (generic quote, not directly you, Mr. Strawfield).

    No. Just about every gun owner I know wants current laws to be enforced. The problem is that they aren't.

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    I've kinda wondered about that.

    "Attention residents of Gang Infested Shithole: in 24 hours, we're doing a military sweep of this area. All citizens are given fair warning. Please exit past the checkpoint. We'll check your ID to make sure you aren't on a wanted list. After that, we're arresting everyone in the area. All citizens will be compensated for their time and damages. The money will come from the War on Drug funds. Thank you for your co-operation. Expect to see a lot of arrested and dead drug runnings tomorrow. General Loudspeak: out!"

    I find it amazing that someone who is so worried about a toddler who shot his mother doesn't care that nothing is being done to curb illegal gun violence in the inner cities.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @mott555 said:

    Fun fact, everyone has an agenda.

    But some people's agenda isn't distinguishable from not having an agenda in the area you're talking about. My agenda round this area is based on yanking people's chains for shits and giggles. 😈


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @dkf said:

    yanking people's chains

    :giggity:


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @mott555 said:

    To be fair, accidental firearm deaths are EXTREMELY rare. We better crack down on swimming pools and staircases before we crack down on this if preventing accidental deaths is the actual goal.

    Have you forgotten that Lorne is willing to take all our cars away to stop a relatively few drunk drivers?


  • Trolleybus Mechanic

    @mott555 said:

    I find it amazing that someone who is so worried about a toddler who shot his mother doesn't care that nothing is being done to curb illegal gun violence in the inner cities.

    I just gave a perfectly cromulant solution to that.

    @mott555 said:

    Increase of ~ 5.0%.http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table

    Why didn't gun deaths keep up with the population increase? Seems to me that per-capita gun deaths went down!

    See? Gun control works.

    @dkf said:

    My agenda round this area is based on yanking people's chains for shits and giggles.

    We don't do that on this forum.

    @FrostCat said:

    Have you forgotten that Lorne is willing to take all our cars away to stop a relatively few drunk drivers?

    Have you forgotten that FrostCat keeps taking away his own credibility by being a liar about what other people say and propose?



  • @boomzilla said:

    >Without Obama in office, gun and ammunition sales might have been $10 billion lower.

    That's like saying

    Without Obama in office, I might have eaten a waffle for breakfast instead of cereal.

    I'm not convinced that the start of the sentence implies the end. The part after the comma works just as well without it.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Everybody knows the gun problem is suicides

    Calling suicide a gun problem is like calling masturbation rape.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    We don't do that on this forum.

    😆


  • Dupa

    Nope, I'm talking about how THE EUROPEAN LANGUAGE, that would allow you to watch all of those pesky European news and understand them.


  • Dupa

    I kinda like this one. Preserves the militia, but at the same time I can be sure that no idiot will shoot another idiot over some idiotic idiocy.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @kt_ said:

    Nope, I'm talking about how THE EUROPEAN LANGUAGE, that would allow you to watch all of those pesky European news and understand them.

    You mean, like these guys?


  • Dupa

    Not sure, maybe the pan-worldian language of politics: babble.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    One of the best things about them is that they seem to feel much less need to add loads of talking head BS to the news. News is one thing, yapping about it is something else.


  • Dupa

    You mean EuroNews? That surely sounds great.

    BTW, my previous post should have contained this video:
    Rabble Rabble – 00:08
    — tvtv3



  • @ben_lubar said:

    @blakeyrat said:
    Everybody knows the gun problem is suicides

    Calling suicide a gun problem is like calling masturbation rape.

    Well that analogy works really well if we limit it to the "doin yourself" perspective. If you extend it to the consequences, it breaks down. For one thing, you can't get pregnant from ordinary masturbation. But a weapon will kill all the same no matter whether the intention was to murder yourself or somebody else. A lot of people would still be living if they hadn't had access to a firearm to kill themselves.

    Firearms were built to kill. If you have firearms around, some people will use them. Some will use them to kill themselves. If you want to argue that the benefits outweigh the suicides, maybe start by acknowledging that the problem exists, not by denigrating the people who were unlucky enough to have a gun around when they were really down.

    The homework question is: If we expect people to be rational around guns, how do we explain masturbation?


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @Lorne_Kates said:


    Attention residents of Gang Infested Shithole: in 24 hours, we're doing a military sweep of this area. All citizens are given fair warning. Please exit past the checkpoint. We'll check your ID to make sure you aren't on a wanted list. After that, we're arresting everyone in the area. All citizens will be compensated for their time and damages. The money will come from the War on Drug funds. Thank you for your co-operation. Expect to see a lot of arrested and dead drug runnings tomorrow. General Loudspeak: out!"
    I'm Canadian and don't even want to pretend to care about actual American law!

    Goddamn that sucks to do on mobile.


  • ♿ (Parody)

    @ben_lubar said:

    is like calling masturbation rape.

    Oh shit don't give them ideas!



  • @gleemonk said:

    Firearms were built to kill.

    Penises were built to vagina.



  • [#262353](http://bash.org/?262353) +(13812)- [X]

    <MooseOnDaLoose> Hey MikeBen
    <goatboy> what?
    <MooseOnDaLoose> Pussy.
    <goatboy> er?
    <MooseOnDaLoose> Pussy.
    <goatboy> and?
    <MooseOnDaLoose> Pussy.
    <goatboy> ...
    <MooseOnDaLoose> Pussy.
    <goatboy> i dont get it
    <MooseOnDaLoose> AND YOU NEVER WILL.
    <goatboy> bastard


  • 🚽 Regular

    @boomzilla said:

    @Lorne_Kates said:

    Attention residents of Gang Infested Shithole: in 24 hours, we're doing a military sweep of this area. All citizens are given fair warning. Please exit past the checkpoint. We'll check your ID to make sure you aren't on a wanted list. After that, we're arresting everyone in the area. All citizens will be compensated for their time and damages. The money will come from the War on Drug funds. Thank you for your co-operation. Expect to see a lot of arrested and dead drug runnings tomorrow. General Loudspeak: out!"
    I'm Canadian and don't even want to pretend to care about actual American law!

    Goddamn that sucks to do on mobile.I forgot about the FTFY toolbar button we have here on TDWTF.



  • @Zecc said:

    @boomzilla said:
    Goddamn that sucks to do on mobile.I forgot about the FTFY toolbar button we have here on TDWTF.

    @boomzilla said:

    on mobile.

    The toolbar doesn't exist on mobile.


    Trying to do partial quoting and removing the results of full quote sucks to do on iPad.

    Actually, trying to post in general on iPad is a pain.


  • 🚽 Regular

    @ChaosTheEternal said:

    The toolbar doesn't exist on mobile.


    Trying to do partial quoting and removing the results of full quote sucks to do on iPad.

    Actually, trying to post in general on iPad is a pain.


    No repro. But I'm not on an iPad.



  • @Zecc said:

    No repro.

    Tablets aren't "mobile" though.


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