A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy




  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    Words....


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    That actually seems to be rather insightful, and kudos to you for seeing the relevance to this forum.



  • Have i missed any bridge burnings ?



  • What's your point, @blakeyrat? I ain't gonna read any more than I did cos you've provided, no summary, no establishment of relevance, no intro, no thesis, a link. Well I lie, I might read it.<!-- :D - You are in for a real fun time -->

    Edit: I think I got it. You want us to use Xanadu?



  • I thought this bit was particularly relevant:

    The other pattern that's very, very attractive -- anybody who looks at this stuff has the same epiphany, which is: "Omigod, this software is determining what people do!" And that is true, up to a point. But you cannot completely program social issues either. So you can't separate the two things, and you also can't specify all social issues in technology. The group is going to assert its rights somehow, and you're going to get this mix of social and technological effects.

    Jeff & Co. constructed this software to coerce users into conducting conversations in a certain style, but "the group is going to assert its rights somehow," and it will converse as the group sees fit, not as the software developers see fit. Clearly Jeff doesn't like this, but unless Jeff figures out how to change the psychology of 7.37E+9 people, he's going to be disappointed.



  • @Gribnit said:

    Edit: I think I got it. You want us to use Xanadu?

    Yes, that is exactly correct.

    Olivia Newton John: Xanadu (HQ Version!) – 03:31
    — QueenOfRockChannel



  • The second basic pattern that Bion detailed: The identification and vilification of external enemies. ...
    nothing causes a group to galvanize like an external enemy.

    I kind of see the analogy here

    The religious pattern is, essentially, we have nominated something that's beyond critique.

    I do not see the equivalency here, nothing is above trolling here (or maybe I did not get it).

    And the worst crisis is the first crisis, because it's not just "We need to have some rules." It's also "We need to have some rules for making some rules." And this is what we see over and over again in large and long-lived social software systems. Constitutions are a necessary component of large, long-lived, heterogenous groups

    ok I think you are talking about meta.d (just reading the forums I guess), but is it really a big group anyways, or a group you cared about?



  • A good read. I'm surprised how relevant it is given it was written in 2003.



  • Because it's all basic human behavior. It hasn't really changed in the last 100,000 years.

    If you cared about Linux on the desktop, there was a big list of jobs to do. But you could always instead get a conversation going about Microsoft and Bill Gates. And people would start bleeding from their ears, they would get so mad.

    If you want to make it better, there's a list of things to do. It's Open Source, right? Just fix it. "No, no, Microsoft and Bill Gates grrrrr ...", the froth would start coming out. The external enemy -- nothing causes a group to galvanize like an external enemy.

    So even if someone isn't really your enemy, identifying them as an enemy can cause a pleasant sense of group cohesion. And groups often gravitate towards members who are the most paranoid and make them leaders, because those are the people who are best at identifying external enemies.

    That kinda defines politics.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @anonymous234 said:

    If you want to make it better, there's a list of things to do. It's Open Source, right? Just fix it. "No, no, Microsoft and Bill Gatestoxic hellstew PHP grrrrr ...", the froth would start coming out. The external enemy -- nothing causes a group to galvanize like an external enemy.

    FTFJ


    Filed under: Mission failed



  • Interesting to see Shirkey praising Metafilter in 2003, and to note that Metafilter is still thriving twelve years later. That's like 200 in Internet years.



  • @dse said:

    >The religious pattern is, essentially, we have nominated something that's beyond critique.

    I do not see the equivalency here, nothing is above trolling here (or maybe I did not get it).

    There's no single thing across the entire group. We're too diverse in our perspectives. But I think you can find some of these among some of the people.



  • A bunch of people on this forum are going all, "hurr hurr Jeff Atwood is our enemy!" right now. It's very annoying, and makes the rest of the forum look like immature dicks. "Haha I went to Atwood's forum and made an extremely stale candlejack joke! Because that is acceptable behavior for an adult human being!"



  • @blakeyrat said:

    A bunch of people on this forum are going all, "hurr hurr Jeff Atwood is our enemy!" right now.

    How is that different from your attitude towards him for the last year?



  • @RaceProUK said:

    How is that different from your attitude towards him for the last year?

    Because I don't have a creepy obsession over it. I don't go over to his forum and basically stalk the guy. I don't follow his Twitter simply so I can paste questionable tweets back here to make fun of, etc. Heck I haven't even slammed him that much since he stopped posting here personally, and that was months ago.

    The guy was kind of a jerk. Ok. I got over it. Like normal people do.

    Look, to use the Linux example: there are Linux users who don't like Microsoft, but they just knuckle down and make Linux better in response. Then there are Linux users who don't like Microsoft, but instead of working on making Linux better, they make bad photoshops where Bill Gates is wearing the Borg headgear from Star Trek. The second group of people are not demonstrating healthy behavior.



  • I'm actually with blakey on this one.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    I don't go over to his forum and basically stalk the guy. I don't follow his Twitter simply so I can paste questionable tweets back here to make fun of, etc. Heck I haven't even slammed him that much since he stopped posting here personally, and that was months ago.

    Same as the majority of users here, at least based on what I've seen; as so often happens, it's a small number of particularly vocal users that end up painting the impression of the whole.

    Methinks we might actually be on the same page here.



  • No, because I would never fucking type the word "methinks".


  • area_deu

    @flabdablet said:

    Metafilter

    Never heard of it.



  • Great community with interesting links, useful advice and polite conversation. One-time $5 membership fee for posting rights. Function-before-fashion UX. Professional not-barking-mad moderation team.



  • I'm halfway through reading the article, but I get the gist. Pretty standard insight into group behavior. Everyone understands how these things work. Most of us have experienced it on our own skin, both from the ingroup and outgroup perspective. Yet no one is capable of resisting it completely. But yes, we should try, as much as we can.

    Re: TDWTF vs Atwood. I already said what I had about this. I'll just reiterate a thing @blakeyrat posted earlier, that I agree with 100%.

    Have some style, people.



  • @RaceProUK said:

    How is that different from your attitude towards him for the last year?

    You're right! @blakeyrat is the enemy!

    Buuuuurn him!





  • @Polygeekery is @blakeyrat! So is @xaade! So am !I



  • I don't have spin-the-wheel ethics.

    I'm pretty consistently equal-opportunity-asshole to everyone.



  • Right, you don't have spin-the-wheel ethics, so I have to, we all know this. Then again, I might not even... fuck - we're forking again, bud, hate to tell you...



  • @Gribnit said:

    we're forking again, bud, hate to tell you...

    Get a room if you're gonna do that, you two.



  • But I'm a married man.

    You can't just appropriate my sexuality.



  • But I'm a married man.

    You can't just appropriate my sexuality.



  • But see, you two are clearly on the same wavelength!

    Now shut up, go to the room and get the camera ready.


  • Impossible Mission Players - A

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    get the camera ready.
    Who needs a camera when you have Hololens?


  • area_deu

    @flabdablet said:

    Professional not-barking-mad moderation team.

    Yuck. No thanks.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    The religious pattern is, essentially, we have nominated something that's beyond critique.

    @dse said:

    I do not see the equivalency here

    The Church of the Civilised Discourse Construction Kit.





  • @ijij said:

    if you'll recall, this doesn't end pleasantly



  • @blakeyrat said:

    No, because I would never fucking type the word "methinks".

    But you'd at least copy and paste it. That's close enough for me.



  • That bit about how the core users will seek each other out reminded me of when they introduced that likes requirement. I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that I was still a leader when you had been kicked out — I had been nothing but disruptive up to that point. I mean, not that this place is really vulnerable to disruption, but the thing was it seemed like they were just pulling that metric out of their ass, instead of actually going to forums they were hosting, identifying who the core members were and trying to isolate exactly what it was that separates those users from the chaff.

    Anyway, in the long run it actually worked out pretty well imo: the lounge became a safe place where some of our more fragile members could go to recover from the sick burns you'd been dishing out. Probably be good to have a no-blakeyrats-allowed section on whatever forum tdwtf goes to next also.


  • area_deu

    @Buddy said:

    Probably be good to have a no-blakeyrats-allowed section on whatever forum tdwtf goes to next also.

    I disagree.



  • @aliceif said:

    @Buddy said:
    Probably be good to have a no-blakeyrats-allowed section on whatever forum tdwtf goes to next also.

    I disagree.

    Yeah, me too.

    Anyone who needs to 'recover' already has a place - elsewhere. They can get a thicker skin while they're there.



  • @Buddy said:

    introduced that likes requirement
    I've been lurking on this forum for years and I still can't believe that came from this community. A fuck you button appears to more fitting somehow.

    @Buddy said:

    no-blakeyrats-allowed section on whatever forum tdwtf goes to next
    That's discriminatory and doesn't take into consideration that watching blakey savage someone is half the fun of this forum.



  • @DogsB said:

    I still can't believe that came from this community.

    It didn't. It came with Dischorse.



  • @Buddy said:

    the lounge became a safe place where some of our more fragile members could go to recover from the sick burns you'd been dishing out.

    Yeah I know, I can read it on my alt.


  • area_deu

    But can you read Turn Left?



  • @aliceif said:

    I disagree.

    @loopback0 said:

    Yeah, me too.

    Anyone who needs to 'recover' already has a place - elsewhere. They can get a thicker skin while they're there.

    This deserves a new meme picture I'm too lazy to hack together: "Obvious troll is successful!"



  • @mott555 said:

    @aliceif said:
    I disagree.

    @loopback0 said:

    Yeah, me too.

    Anyone who needs to 'recover' already has a place - elsewhere. They can get a thicker skin while they're there.

    This deserves a new meme picture I'm too lazy to hack together: "Obvious troll is successful!"

    FTFY



  • Meh.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Yeah I know, I can read it on my alt.

    Hi @boomzilla!



  • @Buddy said:

    Probably be good to have a no-blakeyrats-allowed section on whatever forum tdwtf goes to next also.

    Safe rooms are echo chambers.



  • you're an echo chamber


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