Sorry, LaShaquilleanda, I'm not taking the chance



  • Hey guys, we haven't had a good flamewar in a while (like 2 days). So here's one on reddit.

    ###What are some red flags on a resume?

    Ghetto names. Sorry, LaShaquilleanda, I'm not taking the chance. Same goes for obvious trailer names, like 'Chrystyl'. Ethel, Mary...head of the line.

    Another guy elaborates a bit further:

    It's about perception, if I have someone coming in wanting to open an account and deposit $20,000, I want them to feel that their money is safe. Say I have two potential bank employees I'm hiring that might handle this transaction, one is named John Richardson, the other is named Le-ah ('cause the dash don't be silent) Shequan. With equal credentials I'm obviously going with John. It's a name that conjures up an image of an upstanding citizen, a white man with a short haircut and a suit. Honest, dependable, sociable. The other name conjures up a welfare queen, a fat black woman in a messy ghetto apartment, cursing that the child support check hasn't come yet and beating one of her 8 smelly little nigglets. Repulsive, untrustworthy, hostile. Even if in this one particular case that's not true, the customer's perception is all that matters between them depositing their money here, or somewhere else. This is increasingly important in the modern world with electronic communication, in an e-mail the name might be the only indication of a person's character.

    The other point is that a name gives into a person's upbringing. John was given a good name by his parents, a safe respectable name that no one would question. He was also probably raised by responsible married parents who taught him good values and morals. Le-ah isn't even a real name, the mother was probably underage and trying to be edgy and different, without foresight into the name's effect on the child. The child was probably raised in a chaotic unstable home, maybe without a husband/father in the picture. Even if by luck they turn out okay and maybe even get a college education, you have to wonder what problems are simmering under the surface waiting to present themselves at the most obtrusive time. You also have to wonder if supposedly turned out so good as she presents herself, why didn't she change her name to something less embarrassing?

    You're right, maybe it is just a name. Maybe she is actually a good person despite her terrible title, maybe she won't try to defraud accounts (something that I have personally seen happen twice) and maybe she'll even be our star employee (something I've never seen), but that's a lot of a maybes and a lot of gambles I'm taking.

    Or I can hire John.

    I can't afford to be reckless, in this business minimization of risk is the name of the game. If I have to choose between explaining to my irate boss why our profits are shit and being thought of as racist by virgin neckbeards on Reddit, I'll take being racist any day.

    Everyone else is screaming at them they are racists.

    Me?

    Of course, of course, OF COURSE THEY ARE RACIST.

    ....

    ....



  • We German teachers have a saying over here:

    "Kevin1) is not a name, it's a diagnosis."


    1) For some reason, Eastern Germany was enamoured with Hollywood names after the wall fell. Thus Kevin from "Home Alone" or Dustin as in "Dustin Hoffmann". And before you're asking, no, David never caught on



  • I don't think we have this concept of "untrustworthy names" in Serbia.

    Except Gipsy names. But that's just racism.



  • See, that's why everyone should just receive a GUID at birth. That solves so many problems.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    See, that's why everyone should just receive a GUID at birth. That solves so many problems.

    I wouldn't give my money to a bank teller with a guid for a name.



  • Hey, now, my son's first name is {d6fd6755-50dc-457a-b697-d05c9a544309} and I assure you it's no laughing matter.

    @cartman82 said:

    I don't think we have this concept of "untrustworthy names"

    Nobody at your country names their kids, like, "Dżessika" or "Ksavier" or some other phonetic, mangled variation of a western name?



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Nobody at your country names their kids, like, "Dżessika" or "Ksavier" or some other phonetic, mangled variation of a western name?

    Not that I know of.

    Either way, wouldn't be an issue on a CV. Without a distinct community to be tied to such names, you can't form a prejudice.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    Look, we're done fighting with Romans, Turks, Austrians and Hungarians. Now we're bored so we fight amongst ourselves. Given that the names are so similar/same we can't use that kind of prejudice since everyone has the same names...

    Well, fuck, actually... yeah, I guess Serbian [variations of] names here would get that treatment. If it's not the other way around there chalk yourselves a +1 for that.



  • Here, I think it might be. Not with regard to any specific community, but because the first impression you make is that you were brought up by up to a pair of retards.

    Wacky names seem to be a black thing in the US, but here it's mostly associated with all-grown-up valley girls who got insane over their little special snowflake. You know, the kind of parent that blames everyone for their kid's problem except for the kid.

    So yeah, if I were to hire such kid straight out of school, I'd be wary, because there are good chances they'll turn out to be a spoiled brat.



  • @Onyx said:

    Well, fuck, actually... yeah, I guess Serbian [variations of] names here would get that treatment. If it's not the other way around there chalk yourselves a +1 for that.

    Well, "Hrvoje" would probably raise an eyebrow, but IMO nothing more than that. At least in the IT sector.

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Wacky names seem to be a black thing in the US, but here it's mostly associated with all-grown-up valley girls who got insane over their little special snowflake.

    Yeah, it's more about prejudice in general. Racism is just a US-specific flavor of it.

    Personally, I'm fascinated by the concept of prejudice. How it makes sense in one way, but is harmful in another, to all particpants. The clash of emotions and logic, the short term vs long term benefit. The social pressure for people not to use their best reasoning, and the very good arguments behind it. Very interesting.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @cartman82 said:

    Well, "Hrvoje" would probably raise an eyebrow, but IMO nothing more than that. At least in the IT sector.

    I do find most people who work in IT much more reasonable than most 'round these parts, so I'd agree there. In a case of a bank like in the example though, I could see someone having the same line of thinking as the above.

    @cartman82 said:

    Personally, I'm fascinated by the concept of prejudice. How it makes sense in one way, but is harmful in another, to all particpants. The clash of emotions and logic, the short term vs long term benefit. The social pressure for people not to use their best reasoning, and the very good arguments behind it. Very interesting.

    QBLWNE



  • I'm all for evaluating everyone on their own merits, don't get me wrong. But sometimes, you just can't do without a heuristic.



  • First impressions and all that sort of thing, too. Easy to make the wrong connection with what appears to be correlations in your experience. Averages and tendencies aren't individuals.


  • :belt_onion:

    Whoah, the obnoxious hyperbole in that reddit thread - it's over 9000!


  • mod

    @Maciejasjmj said:

    Wacky names seem to be a black thing in the US

    It's more subtle than that: "wacky" names like Sheniqua read as black and "ghetto" and "low income", but perfectly normal names like Apple or Moonbeam or Blue Ivy read as white and thus "unusual" but also probably "wealthy".

    And then there's the REALLY wacky names, like Mohammad...



  • @Yamikuronue said:

    ...but perfectly normal names like Apple or Moonbeam or Blue Ivy read as white and thus "unusual" but also probably "wealthy".

    Maybe. But at best inherited wealth and probably spoiled and untrustworthy. Or possibly children of hippie druggies. My cousin was trying to adopt a couple of sisters (fell through because the social worker lied to them about how involved the mom was with the kids, but that's a whole 'nother story) and one of them was named Rainbow by the druggie mom.

    They were planning on changing the name.


  • area_deu

    @boomzilla said:

    Rainbow

    Better than Rainbow-



  • Indeed. What was it, 3 seconds to form a first impression?

    Plus, I'm at the frontlines when it comes to mangled names. I mean, sometimes the poor kids don't even know themselves how their name is actually pronounced because their parents went for looks, stuff like "Yves" or "Pierre Gilbert". They're supposed to be pronounced in the French way but, due to the fact that their parents don't know a single lick of French, it becomes hideously mangled.

    And then there are those who exchange some letters or add vowels needlessly. A short excerpt from my current class lists, the stem in brackets:

    Marsel (Marcel), Jasemine (Jasmin), Damien-Lee (no idea), Devid (David), Mclloyd (yeah...), Mareile (Mareike), Kenneth (though he insists that it's pronounced without the 'th'), ...



  • I have a hard time remembering anyone's names, mostly because my mind automatically filters them out of conversation. "Hi, my name is and I will be helping you today." I just roll with it.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election



  • You Americans like in most of Spanish speaking countries have two names, use it dumb ass. We chose for our daughter a perfectly normal first name, and a Chinese one for the second.

    If the girl was name Amanda Shegwana Freeman another story would unfold. Normal name and ghetto name.



  • And the hyphen ain't silent... wait.



  • 76281384981070.

    Do you remember this number? Of course not. It has no semantic value. Names are pretty much the same, your brain can't connect the word to a concept.


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    @anonymous234 said:

    76281384981070.

    Oh snap. Is this the nice person I talked to once? I remember still remember the fun times we had. Hope we can see each other again.
     
    yours truly,
     
    3382873471129

    Filed Under: Dating board for people who are labeled as numbers!



  • @cartman82 said:

    and being thought of as racist by virgin neckbeards on Reddit

    The stereotype of "neckbeard" is so funny. The SJW-side of reddit uses it to attack the "racists", now this guy uses it to attack the anti-racists... In the end it seems to have no stable meaning other than "people I don't like".


  • Winner of the 2016 Presidential Election

    When in fact all it means is "this man is lazy when it comes to shaving".

    Signed: Shaquille Occasionally Guilty



  • People don't understand the philosophy of not being racist. It's like a law, "racism is bad", yes, everyone agrees, but why is it bad? Is it because it's a false stereotype? That would imply that it's OK to be racist if you're statistically right about that race, is it?

    If you don't know the answers to those, you can't really discuss these problems (and I'm not trying to imply that it isn't bad).



  • @anonymous234 said:

    That would imply that it's OK to be racist if you're statistically right about that race, is it?

    That's the interesting bit for me. Because the anti-racist philosophy basically states, in this case you should disregard your intellect and reality, for the greater good. Which is always dangerous and, IMO, unstable state of things.

    Also, these same anti-racism people have no problem saying something like "german shepards are smart and great with children", or "orcs are chaotic evil". So the idea of different races having different ups and downs is deeply ingrained in our psyche. It's just that our culture has spent the last 100 years building this wall around the idea, making it taboo when applied to actual human beings. And for a very good reason too.

    But in the end, it still comes down to "you shouldn't say or think or acknowledge things which might match reality." Which is a strange and unhealthy state to be in.

    Not sure there's a solution here. I guess all races and cultures should interbreed, until distinctions go away?



  • @cartman82 said:

    Ghetto names. Sorry, LaShaquilleanda, I'm not taking the chance. Same goes for obvious trailer names, like 'Chrystyl'.

    thats_racist_kid.gif

    @cartman82 said:

    Ethel, Mary...head of the line.

    ... he's hiring 80 year olds?

    @cartman82 said:

    With equal credentials I'm obviously going with John. It's a name that conjures up an image of an upstanding citizen, a white man with a short haircut and a suit.

    Yes, if you're a piece of human garbage.

    @cartman82 said:

    The other name conjures up a welfare queen, a fat black woman in a messy ghetto apartment, cursing that the child support check hasn't come yet and beating one of her 8 smelly little nigglets.

    "Nigglets"?

    Cartman, the GamerGate shit is one thing, but why the fuck are you reading this trash? God-fucking-damnit, man.

    @cartman82 said:

    I wouldn't give my money to a bank teller with a guid for a name.

    I wager I do that every time I use an ATM.



  • @Maciejasjmj said:

    Wacky names seem to be a black thing in the US, but here it's mostly associated with all-grown-up valley girls who got insane over their little special snowflake. You know, the kind of parent that blames everyone for their kid's problem except for the kid.

    We have both.

    Remember LA Story with "SanDeE*"? That was the latter type.

    Although I'd say it's more "hippie who somehow got money" thing. Look at, for example, "Moon Unit" Zappa. Nicholas Cage's son named "Kal-El" after the Superman comics. Gwyneth Paltrow's kid "Apple". Etc.

    Anyway, I've worked with (believe it or not) TWO "Aragorns" in the last 3-4 years, and both were solid dependable guys. I'd deposit my money with an Aragorn.



  • @Rhywden said:

    Kenneth (though he insists that it's pronounced without the 'th')

    What's unusual about a Kenneth wanting to be called Kenny?



  • @anonymous234 said:

    People don't understand the philosophy of not being racist. It's like a law, "racism is bad", yes, everyone agrees, but why is it bad? Is it because it's a false stereotype? That would imply that it's OK to be racist if you're statistically right about that race, is it?

    If you're an insurance adjuster, and you have literally every piece of data recordable to back up your prejudice, than your prejudice might be justified.

    If you have data that shows LaQuisha (or whatever) is X% more likely to take money from the bank till, then you have a justified prejudice. But it requires data not assumptions.

    And even if you do have the data, you're still a complete dick if you refuse to hire LaQuisha saying it's because of her name. Come up with some other excuse if you have to, but don't be a complete dick about it.



  • @cartman82 said:

    That's the interesting bit for me. Because the anti-racist philosophy basically states, in this case you should disregard your intellect and reality, for the greater good. Which is always dangerous and, IMO, unstable state of things.

    No.

    It's about forming opinions without backing data.

    Like for example, assuming people with "black" names are less trustworthy. Does the guy who wrote this article have data to back it up? If so, why isn't the data in the article? If he does have data to back it up, then yes, this is an idea worth considering.

    Look, here's the deal:

    • A lot of Jews have jobs in the financial sector <- fine, data backs this up

    • Jews are trying to topple our government and keeping us in financial slavery <- there's no data here, this is racism

    Do you see? It's really simple.



  • Blakey, it's not about data, it's about perceptions where the first contact counts, in the blink of an eye.

    And of course he has "data" to back it up: He himself is a prime example. And he won't be the only one.

    There's a reason why we're telling our pupils to act professionally when searching for an apprenticeship - 90% of the time you're at a disadvantage if you're sporting visible tattoos, piercings and, yes, names are part of the problem.

    I'm not saying that this is a good thing. But it's something that exists and that's why I'm of the opinion that everyone should be allowed to change his/her name upon reaching adulthood.



  • @Rhywden said:

    Blakey, it's not about data, it's about perceptions where the first contact counts, in the blink of an eye.

    If you are forming opinions of people without data, then you are an awful human being.

    @Rhywden said:

    And of course he has "data" to back it up: He himself is a prime example.

    Huh? Ok so he can guarantee that 1/300,000,000th of the US population feels that way. That's not... useful data.

    @Rhywden said:

    There's a reason why we're telling our pupils to act professionally when searching for an apprenticeship - 90% of the time you're at a disadvantage if you're sporting visible tattoos, piercings and, yes, names are part of the problem.

    That's not their problem. The person interviewing them is the one not holding up the social contract.

    @Rhywden said:

    I'm not saying that this is a good thing. But it's something that exists

    Right; but also be sure you're faulting the correct party. Never say, "you're at a disadvantage due to your name", say, "the world of full of racist fucks who won't give you a fair shake due to your name."

    @Rhywden said:

    and that's why I'm of the opinion that everyone should be allowed to change his/her name upon reaching adulthood.

    Well, duh? Is there any place that doesn't allow that?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    What's unusual about a Kenneth wanting to be called Kenny?

    That he wouldn't rather use his middle name?


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    you're still a complete dick if you refuse to hire LaQuisha saying it's because of her name.

    Not only that but she's probably going to sue you.



  • @FrostCat said:

    That he wouldn't rather use his middle name?

    I remember that Rhywden is in Germany (right?) so maybe it's weird here.

    In the US (and presumably other English-speaking countries), the "canonical" nickname for a Kenneth is Kenny or Ken. So that's perfectly normal here. "Ken" is also a perfectly cromulent Japanese name, although I don't know if "Kenny" is.

    I wonder if shows like Star Trek where they call Captain Kirk both "Jim" and "James" in different contexts confuses Germans.

    @FrostCat said:

    Not only that but she's probably going to sue you.

    If you did it based on racism, she'd be right to. Fuck racists.


  • :belt_onion:

    @blakeyrat said:

    "Nigglets"?

    Cartman, the GamerGate shit is one thing, but why the fuck are you reading this trash? God-fucking-damnit, man.

    Yup, had not read the original, and yes they are racists. As much as I hate SJWs, racists are more abhorrent.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    I mean. I'll admit to being instantly biased the second I get an application from a fake Indian or Chinese name - you know, the ones of the form (Non confrontational white guy name like Ted or Joe) followed by (Actual native name).

    But that's more because the recruiter has run dry and is sending H1Bs again (we have no ability to hire H1Bs because the company will not sponsor them) and the knowledge that I'm about to sit through an interview with a language barrier a mile thick that I already know I'm not going to be able to pursue even if they turn out to be spectacular - but nonetheless am required to do so we don't hurt our relationship with the recruiting partner.

    We don't get LuhShawnda applying here (mostly because ain't nobody but white folks want to live in bigoted assed Pennsyltucky), so I truly don't know what my visceral reactions would be. I like to think I'm above that level of racism, but maybe not.



  • @Onyx said:

    I was thinking more like:



  • @Weng said:

    I mean. I'll admit to being instantly biased the second I get an application from a fake Indian or Chinese name - you know, the ones of the form (Non confrontational white guy name like Ted or Joe) followed by (Actual native name).

    ???

    Here in Seattle there are tons of Chinese people with American names. I work for a Kevin (originally from Hong Kong), I used to work with a Joe (second generation). What's wrong with that?

    @Weng said:

    But that's more because the recruiter has run dry and is sending H1Bs again (we have no ability to hire H1Bs because the company will not sponsor them) and the knowledge that I'm about to sit through an interview with a language barrier a mile thick that I already know I'm not going to be able to pursue even if they turn out to be spectacular - but nonetheless am required to do so we don't hurt our relationship with the recruiting partner.

    Why do you do useless things?



  • @blakeyrat said:

    Like for example, assuming people with "black" names are less trustworthy. Does the guy who wrote this article have data to back it up? If so, why isn't the data in the article? If he does have data to back it up, then yes, this is an idea worth considering.

    We could talk about the demographics of inmates in the prison system. Surely certain institutional factors are putting thumbs on the scales but that's just arguing about root causes and we're talking about observable symptoms here.



  • @dse said:

    As much as I hate SJWs, racists are more abhorrent.

    SJWs usually have their own brand of racism that's sometimes (but not always) more subtle than the stereotypical redneck sort of racist.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    @blakeyrat said:

    Here in Seattle there are tons of Chinese people with American names. I work for a Kevin (originally from Hong Kong), I used to work with a Joe (second generation). What's wrong with that?

    Around here it seems to be an artifact of being shipped in by consulting firms and recruiters. When they actually do the paperwork, it turns out the friendly Midwestern name is not part of their legal name in any way.

    To clarify, nothing is wrong with using an alias or nickname to accommodate other people. It's just that in my circumstances it's a red flag indicating a likely upcoming problem.

    @blakeyrat said:

    Why do you do useless things?

    Because my management (starting at boss+1) live in a fucking fantasy land where I have nothing better to do than to do random dumbassed shit because they think it's a good idea.

    We employ 3 people whose entire job is to maintain various Google Docs sheets with project tracking information. Manually. Because modifying our tracking systems to produce the additional telemetry would be too expensive.


  • :belt_onion:

    Yes, you are right, so at the end it is the racism I hate. SJWs with their sneaky soft-tone racism, and well good old blunt racism. The thing is some SJWs are just fools, and I hate fools too.



  • @Weng said:

    Because my management (starting at boss+1) live in a fucking fantasy land where I have nothing better to do than to do random dumbassed shit because they think it's a good idea.

    So don't do it.


  • Discourse touched me in a no-no place

    Often I don't, except in hiring. In this case the recruiter complains to random manager that I'm being racist (they conveniently forget to mention the visa thing until after the interview, despite prep sheet specifically asking for it, so I can't use that as grounds not to interview).

    In all actuality, for most positions I'm required to turn around the whole fucking thing in under a week because the managerial ADHD is so bad that they decide we didn't really need that employee if the process from listing to start date takes more than 3 weeks. This leads to the need to interview literally every applicant, and usually pick from the first 3 you interview. It's fucking impossible to get good people that way.

    So when you usually just interview everybody and pick the first non disaster, and suddenly you reject the guy named Mahboob out of hand, it does look bad.

    And then when they do start it's weeks before a computer turns up because that process is a 6 week one.



  • @blakeyrat said:

    If you have data that shows LaQuisha (or whatever) is X% more likely to take money from the bank till, then you have a justified prejudice. But it requires data not assumptions.

    And even if you do have the data, you're still a complete dick if you refuse to hire LaQuisha saying it's because of her name. Come up with some other excuse if you have to, but don't be a complete dick about it.

    The interesting part for me is the situation where you do have the data. What should you do then?

    It's interesting you feel it should be OK to be prejudiced, as long as you're being nice about that.

    I mean, I bet you can pretty trivially show that greater percentage of black people are criminals than white people, proportional to their numbers (especially if you limit it to a specific location). Is it then OK for cops to racially profile, as long as they are being nice about it?



  • @cartman82 said:

    It's interesting you feel it should be OK to be prejudiced, as long as you're being nice about that.

    If you have data, it's not prejudice.

    @cartman82 said:

    Is it then OK for cops to racially profile, as long as they are being nice about it?

    No; because the populations involved are too big.


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